Romy the Cat wrote:

This made me to pay a lot of respect to the subject of motors in TT as I concluded (looking at the straggling of my guy) that good TT motors are super rare thing. The Cat

N-set wrote:

I'm still puzzled by the strange polar plot of your Micro (maybe you remember--a pinkfishmedia project aimed at advanced analysis of motor speed instability). Perhaps would be worth to retake the signal with some known test LP.

Romy the Cat wrote:

Actualy I did not take the pinkfishmedia analysis too serious. I have absolutely no idea how to interpret the results of the analysis.

Romy the Cat wrote:

The reality is that neither I nor the pinkfishmedia guy knows what in TT responsible for it Sound. The solution they use to measure speed instability is very elegant and I do not question it but I do question what it all means. We can measure very objectively harmonic distortion of amp for instance but we know that lower number of distortion is not necessary an assurance of better sound.  The problem, as I see it, that to make the pinkfishmedia analysis better it would take to perfect the analysis itself but not to perfect a turntable.  I would like to see actions over TT that would improve the pinkfishmedia analysis and parallel to it would improve auditable Sound.

Look at more posts the A’gon there posted a bout and Rauliruegas passed his observations about Micro Seiki turntables.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1350008574&openflup&106&4#106

He might be right. I disagree with some of his findings. For instance I do not think that a tonearm needs to be decoupled and damped from TT. However, his observations, very much as well as my objections based upon purely theoretical observation regarding his and my understanding of “design” TT. Neither Rauliruegas nor I make observations in context of the actual sound and how our theories impact sound. Yes, having zillion turntables and arms as well as an interest to the subject Rauliruegas very much in position to make those observations but I have my reasons to doubt that those observations are factual. Rauliruegas looks like does not sell anything to anybody and has no business addenda (contrary to the majority whores at that site) and this does give to him some credibility. However, unit he talk about his reference points, his evaluation techniques and the actual sounds (instead of design ideas) I will keep my skepticism to his findings.

Stitch wrote:

… they have 2 weak features - a Platter which rings - no suspension

Stitch wrote:

BUT, when we look at their latest units, we can see that Micro discovered these Problems in their last years. They offered a Vacuum Base (comparable to a modern Vibraplane) and a steel platter.

Stitch wrote:

It is not easy for the normal Reader to find out what is really good, we know, even crap gets great recommendations. In a way the only solution is to travel to owners from whatever tables and to listen to their units. Sooner or later you will learn why some designs sound better than others, when you find out why this is the way it is, you are experienced, so it is step by step.

Stitch wrote:

But real life also will show that you can ruin the best Performance with the rest of the chain, let's say in theory you listen to a super turntable but the Arm, Phonostage, Preamp, Amp is horrible, you can imagine what kind of result will be offered.

Most today are familiar with the term, "Spin", which basically means telling it like one wants it to be.

Here is the fruit of one man's quest for the ultimate TT, after decades of effort, with a machinist facilitator:  http://www.merrillscillia.com/ms21.html

And here is a more recent effort by the same guy, working with a different facilitator:  http://www.realturntable.com

Hmmm...

Which design is "better"?  Why is it better?

Paul S

Romy the Cat wrote:

Epigraph "…just buy a used Micro Seiki and don’t worry about turntables anymore; built like a tank and sounds better than TTs costing over 30K USD.” Mr. Ikeda, of Ikeda / Fidelity Research The Main bitching   It amasses me how the preoccupation of the analogs people with their turntables has practically no relation to the actual sonic result that those turntables are capable off and practically entirely depends from the blown up intellectual things that have no or little  relation to actual sound of those turntables ... Rgs. Romy the Cat

Stitch wrote:

Romy the Cat wrote: Epigraph "…just buy a used Micro Seiki and don’t worry about turntables anymore; built like a tank and sounds better than TTs costing over 30K USD.” Mr. Ikeda, of Ikeda / Fidelity Research The Main bitching   It amasses me how the preoccupation of the analogs people with their turntables has practically no relation to the actual sonic result that those turntables are capable off and practically entirely depends from the blown up intellectual things that have no or little  relation to actual sound of those turntables ... Rgs. Romy the Cat That article was written 2006 and the first time when I read it, it was like a wake up call. That is (and will be forever) the Analog Manifest. Never was written something better about modern Audiophilia.  After all these years, I have to say "Thank you" for that. And coming back to our modern times, The Seiki is back again in new, it is called Air Force One and it is a technical copy from Seiki 8000 II with only 2 minor changes (obviously after 20+ years, it has an active speed controller and 3 platters the buyer can choose - of course, the brainless blubber is alive again, it is depending what "sound" the buyer prefers -.....). Available for 85000 USD and now it is taken seriously. That's the only language Analog Audiophiles understand :-) Probably Albert Einstein was an early Audiophile, don't know, but to quote him:  "Two Things Are Infinite: the Universe and Human Stupidity"

"It isn’t often that an audio component, upon first sight/listen makes this particular reviewer drool.  But the Air Force ONE has done just that.

It is immediately obvious that this is not only a classic, but a reference that gives the state-of-the-art Clearaudio (The Statement) super table hot pursuit, even at times exceeds that classic. (Just wish we had been able to keep it longer to further explore its wonders.)

First of all, the Air Force One is the quietest of the tables that has crossed our path here in Sea Cliff.  Indeed, it is so very good in this regard that we found dynamic extension on LPs that we simply had not suspected encoded in their grooves ... You quite simply get closer to the experience of the music itself and, ironically, forget about the sonics per se. ....   This table is, in my considered judgment, in a class by itself, and I am hoping for its use as a long-term loan for reference purposes."

That didn't pan out for HP as they only allowed him 3 weeks to gaze at it, so this is what he wrote about the Kronos Turntable a few months later:

"This Canadian import is, physically, one of the most beautiful looking of the new wave in turntable design.  .... About this, more later, but, for the nonce, know that it is quiet, highly so, and so stable that recorded  images seem to float solidly on cushions of their own ambient makings, allowing it to achieve sensationally wide dynamics. I must say that upon first listen, the LP’s sound less like recordings and more like music. I do not, at least yet, hear any “signature sound” or sonic identity. It does not impose itself upon the music or impart distinctive coloration to the recordings. I do not hear the turntable, only the music.

A masterpiece of design, but not of cost.  At $28,000 or so, it is still a bargain, given the comparable cost of sonically competing designs."

I guess he means Air Force One??

Stitch wrote:

Probably Albert Einstein was an early Audiophile, don't know, but to quote him:  "Two Things Are Infinite: the Universe and Human Stupidity"