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   Home » Audio For Dummies ™ » Why I do not like the "high-end" audio-reviewers. (27 posts, 2 pages)
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  »  New  Michael Fremer Continuums…..  Pre-manufactured box speaker...  Audio News Forum     54  617559  01-21-2006
12-28-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
PeterA
Posts 18
Joined on 04-29-2021

Post #: 21
Post ID: 27820
Reply to: 27818
Audio as propoganda
Romy, now you are having fun.  You hold up your way as the right way:   The way to maximize or guarantee listener engagement from “this sounds like music” to “this is what the music wants to be”.   That reminds me of Louis Kahn describing what a brick is and then going on to explain that a brick wants be used to emphasize its very nature.   It has a size, it has a shape, it’s good in compression, but not tension, etc.  it is a brick and not a piece of wood or wire.  
Others also use their systems as propaganda to demonstrate for visitors or simply to themselves that a Bruckner Symphony is not a Bach cello suite.  But we cannot get into their heads to know what their genius was completely.  We have our egos so we can try to get there and imagine what they were thinking.  it was likely something greater than music.  Are we even capable of understanding it?   


American Sound AS2000; Lamm LP1, LL1.1 Sig, ML2; Vitavox CN-191
DIY signal cables, rack, Ching Cheng power cords
System link: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/natural-sound.32867/
12-28-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,226
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 22
Post ID: 27821
Reply to: 27820
It is nothing new here.
I think you do not get subtle implications. Look, I have mentioned before that a proper topological decision for playback does not just "improve" perception of Bruckner but also improve perception of Bach's  cello suite. You remember a conversation that we all subordinated with common laws of psych acoustic and we all ended up is the same things in the end. Put two of those things together. You might discover a different perspective. Honestly I'm absolutely do not see any conflict between “this sounds like music” and “this is what the music wants to be". It feels like conflict if you observe result from purely out your perspective. But if You observe results from musical perspective then there is no conflict of any kind. Here's a question for you, not that I need an answer but answer to yourself. If you hear a new musical piece for the first time, do you need additional "help" to understand if it is good or bad performance of the given piece. If you answer to yourself this question then you we will see where I am coming from. Audio, is that we are consumers in our listening rooms it is just proxy transitional, and in a way irrelevant interface. People like me or others enjoy to play with this interface, is it relevant? Well, as anything else which entertain us until a cancer of testicles sends us to cemetery.... 

By the way there is nothing new here it is well developed content. You apparently just recently begin to pay attention  because you got "fucked" by the original ML2, most likely recently. That beast will do it...


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-28-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
PeterA
Posts 18
Joined on 04-29-2021

Post #: 23
Post ID: 27822
Reply to: 27821
Moving along the continuum.
You failed to understand my post.  "This sounds like music" all the way to "this is what the music wants to be" is the same continuum that your propaganda which makes a person more likely to be engaged in anthing starting from "suspension of disbelief" and ending "this is the actual ethical message that musical piece care..."
Yes, I do not get the subtle implications. The brick was not subtle either.   I bought my first ML2 original version two years ago, and I bought a second pair, same original version last year.  


American Sound AS2000; Lamm LP1, LL1.1 Sig, ML2; Vitavox CN-191
DIY signal cables, rack, Ching Cheng power cords
System link: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/natural-sound.32867/
12-28-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,226
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 24
Post ID: 27823
Reply to: 27822
Then it should be so simple...
Ah, nice, you are a seasoned ML2 user! Why do you need to pay attention to me? The original ML2 surprisingly has most of the answers to the subjects that you have curiosity....


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-28-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
PeterA
Posts 18
Joined on 04-29-2021

Post #: 25
Post ID: 27825
Reply to: 27823
Turning the key
Yes, ML2 since April 2021.  Second pair 18 months ago.  I had them when I visited you.  


American Sound AS2000; Lamm LP1, LL1.1 Sig, ML2; Vitavox CN-191
DIY signal cables, rack, Ching Cheng power cords
System link: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/natural-sound.32867/
12-28-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,226
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 26
Post ID: 27826
Reply to: 27825
Try to look into this outside of ML2 shoebox.
Well, let me give you perspective and you understand where I'm coming from. Two pairs of ML2s this is what I had back in 2002. Then I discovered some restrictions of ML2. Elso, I developed interest in dedicated amplification and ML2 was not the subject of those experiments. Trust me, it is very safe to sit under umbrella of ML2 and pontificate about naturality and anything in those lines, because ML2 is them safe umbrella. However, when you step out of safety of ML2 protection then each character of sound, dynamic behavior, articulation, ratio between harmonic situation volume and specific octave become the consequences of your actions. In your case, you have a safe acoustic system and safe amplification that was given to you by virtue of you getting two very successful brand and models. Now pretend is that you have objective to beat It. Not to beat it in absolute term but bypass certain limitation that you feel you would like to bypass. You cannot sensibly talk about producing natural sound without being the person who will make the actions to actually produce it. This is why I feel that naturality is valid quality for an observer. If Lamm was alive he would tell you most likely that you're the duality is his actions. And he is very deliberately implement specific decision in his design in order you to observe naturality. Two of the best models he ever build preamp L1 and first production of ML2  has a lot in them that was very intentionally made that in your estimation would produce what you call natural sound. Ask David, when he was making his turn table if he was concerned about naturality of sound or more about precision of polishing some kind of specific details in his turntable.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-29-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
PeterA
Posts 18
Joined on 04-29-2021

Post #: 27
Post ID: 27830
Reply to: 27826
Safe umbrellas and dancing in the rain
Well, ML2 was not given to me.  As you know, there are many choices available.  I compared and then chose the ML2.  Yes, I did not design it or create it, but what it does is available to those who identify it and choose to use it.  Is it a safe umbrella?  Yes, if your goal is to assemble a type of system based on my approach to the hobby.  I have a target, and the ML2 gets me closer to that target.  

Many people can experiment, be expressive by creating.  All of that is fun and good for learning.  Some hobbyists do that, and that is the realm of the designer.  I know my limits and have chosen to benefit from and simply enjoy Vladimir's work.  David Karmeli introduced me to it.  In the end, for me it is about results, not so much my need for expression.  Others can get their clothes wet by dancing in the rain.

I have the original LL1 but I also have the L1 and have been using the L1 with ML2 for four months.  It is a very good combination.  I will put the LL1 back into the system soon and then better understand Vladimir's progression.  

I have talked to David about his turntable and speaker designs.  He explores different design ideas to achieve his goal of natural sound, the target always being the listening experience similar to real music.  Getting the specific details right serves that goal.  A nicely finished product is another requirement for a completed design at his level.


American Sound AS2000; Lamm LP1, LL1.1 Sig, ML2; Vitavox CN-191
DIY signal cables, rack, Ching Cheng power cords
System link: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/natural-sound.32867/
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  »  New  Michael Fremer Continuums…..  Pre-manufactured box speaker...  Audio News Forum     54  617559  01-21-2006
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