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12-08-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 157
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #: 1761
Post ID: 26028
Reply to: 2931
My experience with original PP2000
FWIW, I had one of the original PP2000 units (made in Taiwan back in those days?). It certainly changed the sound - it seemed to add some 'sparkle' somehow. But I had an interesting experience with it...
I wanted to hear how things sounded with/without the PP2000, so one day I disconnected the whole system from the PP2000 and plugged it directly into the mains. What I found was that it sounded pretty much the same! But only when the PP2000 was powered up. Switching the PP2000 off, the sound changed back to how it normally sounded. Switching the PP2000 on, and the sound changed to more 'sparkle'.
What I concluded was that the PP2000 was emitting some RFI that somehow interferred with the electronics in the system. I stopped using the PP2000 with my system after that and used it as a regular UPS with my work PC instead. When its batteries failed (a few years ago now), I dumped the PP2000 in the trash. I haven't missed it at all.
Mani.
12-08-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,252
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 1762
Post ID: 26029
Reply to: 26027
SMPS
N-Set, I believe Romy posted scope traces of his PP output in this thread, many years ago. As I recall, it was a "pulsed sine wave". Nobody has said the PP is quiet; quite the opposite. As for battery power, I finally got to "A/B" a large, well thought out and implemented UPS, batteries vs. carefully dedicated mains. In this case, I preferred the mains, overall; more dynamic. This is a "big system", with truly gigantic amps and speakers, and I never had a problem with mains power there since the mains lines were dedicated to the system, including same-phasing and dedicated home runs for neutrals and grounds.

Best regards,
Paul S
12-14-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 496
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 1763
Post ID: 26031
Reply to: 26028
PP and sparkle
Mani, I haven't done yet an honest A/B comparison PP vs wall, PP off, PP on, but what I hear I would not describe as a 'sparkle'. Unlike Romy's and others' experiences, at the beginning I had some HF harshness rather than HF shyness. No idea why, but all the system was disconnected/reconnected several times, maybe IC's needed time, maybe PS's, who knows. Anyway, after a couple of listening sessions the HF harshness (mostly tuner due to an interesting live concerts) disappeared, leaving a beautiful, "organic" sound with a fabulous bass. I'm not ready to describe the sound change yet as I'm burning in my AC extension, so not yet the final power connection.



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
01-11-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 496
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 1764
Post ID: 26032
Reply to: 26031
Update
A bit of the background. Before acquiring the PP, the whole system had been moved from it's previous location in Gdansk to a new one in Warsaw. New, busy city, new apartment, new electricity. Straight after the move and connected to the new house power, the sound was simply uninspiring, very much unlike in my previous location. I honestly did not want to listen much. This was the reason to get the PP. It did give very very good results with my tuner but had some grounding issues with the phono. After the long fight, documented above (thank you guys, thank you PP Richard for the help) this was eventually resolved and I have installed a dedicated power line and GND for the PP. Whether needed or not I honestly cannot tell as I did not do much listening with PP connected to the house power. But for a peace of mind I installed the line right before the Christmas (was actually a pretty quick job with a right electrician). Then came long weeks of burning in of the line. I connected a fridge, some lights and several time a washing machine (about 2kW peak). Not through PP of course, just directly. Recently I finally started listening. I've had so far only one long listening session so cannot comment much on the sound yet. But one is sure - the sound has changed from just correct and uninvolving to more resolved, dynamically contrasted and emotionally engaging. Most prominent change in the base and upper base, the latter being the most sensitive point. Was spinning one LP after another, finding a great pleasure in the sound, resembling what I had before the big move. I feel there is still some tweaking to be done - with the PP the arrangement of the AC cords seems more important to minimize the cart pickup and some more break in is also needed. But at this stage I'm very happy!


Below are the details of the current power connection (mostly for my records):
1) Dedicated power line:  6m of 5x6mm2 flat cable (AWG 9.5). The connections of the cable:

PP GND - Neutral - Line - Drain GND - System GND  (could be more optimal with PP GND and Line exchanged but let's not be picky)

Drain GND connected only on the power distribution side and left unconnected at the receptacle.
Dedicated fuse box, connected directly to the power entrance to the apartment: RCBO Siemens 5V3316-6, 63A type figuring it should have the most reliable contacts After it 16A, 10x38mm fuse on the line, Siemens 3NW7013 holder
2) PP connected to this line, with its ground at PP GND. System GND connected via a separate 10mm2 (AWG 7) stranded wire (around 3m) to its dedicated GND (System GND). PP GND, System GND and the Drain GND are connected only at the power entry to the apartment. There are 2 separate GND wires: For the phono and for the digital
PP and GND connections.jpg


From PP a 3m power cable 3x4mm2 (AWG 11) to a my old DIY power strip. Connection to PP via a Nema L6-15 twistlock connector. The cable carries the PP GND. All the components are lifted from the PP GND and connected only via the dedicated GND above. The AC cables have actually Paul's drain system: there is a GND strand, connected only at one end to the PP GND at the power strip, but disconnected at the component end. The AC cables are DIY solid core 2.5mm2 (AWG 13) in teflon braids with solid copper plugs (thanks Paul for that construction!).

An interesting observation: The 20kHz carrier freq of the PP dropped by some 8dB at the phono output going from a normal household stranded wire power strip to the 3x4mm2 solid core above. I recon this is the skin effect in action and the thick cable acts as a filter for the PP HF noise. Looking at the engineering data on cables, e.g. here https://fliphtml5.com/tbxwk/pnhi/basic there limiting frequencies quoted for the max skin depth. 11AWG has 3200Hz. If I find enough motivation, I will change the PP to system connection to 9.5AWG (6mm2) which has around 1kHz less (more than 9.5AWG will not fit my Nema plugs).

Thanks again everyone for the help: Vaclav from HifiStrore in Prague for delivering the PP, PP Richard for a great deal of support and help (I'm yet to try your AC cable), Romy and other contributors for your advise and help. Needless to say I began to buy LP's again Wink
 






Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
01-13-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,252
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 1765
Post ID: 26033
Reply to: 26032
Drain/Bleeder Ground
Good for you, Jarek! As for the very specialized (and not always needed...) "bleeder" ground, it has been my experience that it has worked best when it is a "stand alone" copper rod driven at some distance from the service ground. I run a 12 AWG magnet wire from the system, through the wall, to a rod driven near the house foundation, outside, over 60' from the house/UFER ground. I realize this is not always easy or even possible to do in certain cases, notably apartments; but this has been my experience. Of course it is possible to measure noise on the "house ground" with the system running, and in rare cases noise is low enough that it's a non-issue. In your case, it seems unlikely - intellectually -  that the house/system ground will be quiet with the PP installed and running; but if it is indeed quiet with the PP then you can consider yourself lucky.

Best regards,
Paul
01-14-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 496
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 1766
Post ID: 26034
Reply to: 26033
GND scheme
Paul, what I mean by 'Drain GND' is your idea of a GND cable connected at one end only. I have no access to mother earth and cannot install a dedicated rod. To avoid confusion, below is my actual power line and GND scheme.
As for the noise, I think there are two types:
1. Obvious - one that can be heard when there is no music; mostly due to GND loops, inappropriate shielding etc
2. Hidden - one that manifests itself in a musical material via various colorations

In my setting there is none to very little obvious noise depending on the chosen source. An exception is the Decca cartridge which picks EMT strobo lamp and motor noise, but that disappears almost to zero when I ground the TT (I lifted it in the previous location before I got the Decca, but consider grounding again to the household GND). All that is verified with very efficient Stax headphones.

When it comes to the more malicious hidden noise, I have little to choose to experiment. My only possibilities are A) no GND, when I get more obvious noise due to the cart pickup or  B) connect to the apartment GND in various combinations. The one I use now is below, with the dedicated system GND and PP GND meeting the household GND only in the utility box, where GND enters the apartment. This is the best approximation I can make to completely separate grounds.

GND scheme.jpg
Edit: Just grounded the TT + its metal frame to the existing household GND (meets the dedicated grounds only at one common point at the apartment power entrance).  Removed some of the obvious noise from the Decca cart. The feeling is also slightly increased the clarity of the musical presentation. Enjoying a surprisingly good RCA/German Erato Vivaldi's Dixit Dominus under Corboz Smile



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
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   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  What lives in Symmetric Sound?..  The beginning of our journey is ALWAYS symmetrical...  Audio Discussions  Forum     19  134342  05-28-2004
  »  New  Always check power-line polarity...  Polarity checker, for convenience...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     7  79767  07-10-2005
  »  New  RAAL “Water Drop” tweeter for Macondo...  Your comment takes me by surprise...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     77  771377  02-16-2007
  »  New  My feelings about new exciting audio products..  Vacuumstate...  Audio Discussions  Forum     25  215717  04-30-2007
  »  New  Musique Concrete horns..  These are now sold as Kornhent products...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     6  86777  06-12-2007
  »  New  Compression drivers and the “clean signal”...  The NEW “Compression drivers and the clean signal”....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  129619  07-12-2007
  »  New  Digi Redux; Drive 1 transport and iDAT-44+ DAC..  Ha! It might have lasted FOREVER!...  Didital Things  Forum     25  172185  09-28-2007
  »  New  Metal domes..  Try the one Lansche is using...  Audio Discussions  Forum     6  63134  11-08-2007
  »  New  The power AC Outlets?..  Where to Pick Up the Gong?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     2  34471  10-31-2008
  »  New  The Avicenna's failure is the great Avicenna success!..  New life for Avicenna...  Audio Discussions  Forum     8  64947  02-03-2009
  »  New  Internet and electricity..  Suboptimal. . ....  Didital Things  Forum     1  21617  01-07-2010
  »  New  Electricity... power strips and ac improvements..  Electricity... power strips and ac improvements...  Audio Discussions  Forum     0  12970  03-30-2010
  »  New  Another example of energy..  GND scheme...  Audio Discussions  Forum     1765  7420504  01-29-2011
  »  New  I good spot-light for a turntable?..  Reply...  Analog Playback Forum     15  119731  10-24-2010
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