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  »  New  Romy's Horns..  RE: Still Romy's horns...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     3  45677  04-14-2005
  »  New  Vitavox S2 with Electromagnets..  Cutter Head/Servo...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     91  780341  01-12-2006
  »  New  S2 Hissing Sound..  Cleaning Time Revisited......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     12  77154  07-18-2006
  »  New  Big mama 1.5" horns......  Crossover point...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     27  157519  09-08-2006
  »  New  Satisfying result: the RMAF Show + Cogent..  A Subject for your post!...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     22  200975  10-25-2006
  »  New  Vitavox S2 driver made in china..  What does it do right?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     36  184948  12-20-2006
  »  New  Make Your Own Horns..  Texture and Consistency...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  21816  01-26-2007
  »  New  Musique Concrete horns..  Electricity and different compression drivers’ diaphrag...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  74419  06-12-2007
  »  New  Compression drivers and the “clean signal”...  The NEW “Compression drivers and the clean signal”....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  110539  07-12-2007
  »  New  Entry level DSET Melq?..  Look outside the Lundhal if you need more current to dr...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     10  75147  01-25-2008
  »  New  Vitavox S2 coupling..  Adaptor thickness etc....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     18  56254  12-20-2008
  »  New  The ferrofluiding of compression drivers?..  The ferrofluiding of compression drivers?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  11024  02-20-2009
  »  New  Phoenix..  Mute vitavox...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  16221  03-20-2009
  »  New  Fake Vitavox S2 diaphragms on ebay..  The vintage brain virus....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     6  39204  06-11-2009
  »  New  Living Voice Loudspeaker..  A Polish Infomercial from Kevin Scott....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     80  438898  08-09-2009
  »  New  French Horns/drivers shootout (oops! S2 came last)..  My bad...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     7  46403  12-07-2010
  »  New  "O Vitavox, Vitavox! Wherefore art thou Vitavox?&q..  Niche...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     22  141729  06-27-2011
  »  New  For one day only..  Yes , but…....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     12  54454  03-07-2013
04-09-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 184
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 101
Post ID: 15961
Reply to: 15959
Lost in transition? Or not?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
The S2 has own channel and here is nothing your can do about it.


Yes, of course. The answer may be different for the S3, inasmuch as one might be able to start the chosen profile at the diaphragm...


 Romy the Cat wrote:
Yes, I did asked myself this question at the begging...The profile of this channel is irrelevant as at very begging of the curve they all are very much alike.


Still, I do wonder...Even if there is nothing to be done about the conical horn segment integral to the design of the S2, is not that sudden flaring from 2.5 to 6.3 degree an unwanted feature that could be alleviated somehow? If one were to address it, how would one go about this?

My thoughts on how one might address this, although I have no such plans for now, would be to devise a smoother transition by suing the LeCleach profile over the first 24 to 36mm, at which points the difference between the diameters of the two flares are very close.


 Romy the Cat wrote:
I would not think about it.


I agree and this is the course of action I will pursue for now, although in the long run, I may want to revisit this issue by designing a horn that addresses the 'transition problem' and then work out for myself whether there is anything to be gained (or lost) in doing so.

Rgds
Rakesh
02-01-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
morespeakers2
Posts 9
Joined on 02-02-2013

Post #: 102
Post ID: 18959
Reply to: 1995
Mechanical differences Altec 288 versus Vitavox S2 what makes them tick
fiogf49gjkf0d
So in an effort to learn something about the way the 288 and S2 sound the way they do, what do you suppose the mechanical differences in the construction of each driver that causes the differences in sound as they look so similar physically? 

I realize you may not have a 288 on hand but maybe you had both drivers together on the bench at  some time in the past.

I ask because I have been bitten by a bug to machine my own phase plug out of some sort of wood to get rid of the plastic tangerine plug.

Do think it may be possible to "wake up" the Altec sound with some slight changes to the phase plug details?

My thoughts are to the diaphragm to phase plug gap and possibly making this adjustable as wellas trying the different plug designs, salt shaker with tiny round holes, annular circles, tangerine (slits) or a combination each.

I think some laser interferometry might be helpful with this to see where the diaphragm is making its noises at the different frequencies but what do I know. I would be lying if I did not say the only thing I know about laser interferometry is what I saw on a TAD brochure from years ago. The laser machines seem to cost $25,000+. Maybe there is a lab that will analyze your driver somewhere?

I am just a hobbyist but as you well know the sound industry does not seem to have a handle on things when it comes  down to the finest details that really matter in producing good sound and unfortunately barbarians such as my self are forced to try and shape   our rocks and sticks together to fix half done work. They sure seem to have a handle on trying stupid synthetic materials that always suck in the end though.

Thoughts??


No Vitavox info below........ I am the original morespeakers  (email account gone from "morespeakers" so hence morespeakers2 moniker).
So my next post is about seven years later maybe even slower than glacial movement these days.....That does not mean I have not been looking and learning in the mean time.

Have to say that just about every time  I do a search for even the most esoteric of playback reproduction I always seem to see at least few links to the Good Sound Club in the search results for many years now. 
Please keep up the good work!


02-01-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 103
Post ID: 18960
Reply to: 18959
Bench Tests and Job Logs
fiogf49gjkf0d
MS2, I certainly agree that the specific tweaks/changes you mention would/do change the sound from a given driver, along with myriad other "elements".  Now, the questions and supposed answers included/implicit in your post make me think.  While it is true that lasers might be useful to track and trim sound from a given driver, for my own purposes any such methodology would have to be based on ears that can not only correlate particular sound(s) to a given set of data, but the sound itself would have to relate (and be relative to) to my own "sonic heirarchy" in the first place; in other words, at some point, mere "changes" are not enough, but I have to be able to use the data to steer the sound. Further, to be significant, any "empirical results" would have to be "repeatable".  It would be a noble task to make up such a data base.

That no amount of lasers, etc. has so far resulted in good sounding drivers does not deter me from the notion that lasers might be useful tools.  But lasers are obviously nothing without "the right person" at the business end.

Anyway, I say, go for it!

Not the same but similar, I am reminded of the recent "objectivity" posts.


Best regards,
Paul S

02-02-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
morespeakers2
Posts 9
Joined on 02-02-2013

Post #: 104
Post ID: 18962
Reply to: 18960
Mechanical differences Altec 288 versus Vitavox S2 what makes them tick
fiogf49gjkf0d
I believe you use the laser to find out at what frequencies there are resonances and where they are at so youcan make the phase plug accordingly but like I said I know about as much as those lasers as I saw in the Tad brochure. 

A machinist told me one time long ago he had a shop as accurate as the next guy, and that it really does not matter the tools after a certain point but the user.

You are right if you do have a clue, no amount of lasers or other tools are going to help you,but it takes time to make phase plugscorrectly and I would like all the help I could get to get it right the first or second time if possible.

So I guess in the long run you would eventually make it correct without lasers although there may be something the lasers pick up that is unknown about the behavior of the diaphragm so maybe in the long run you are wrong and the lasers will make a better sounding driver,or maybe not, it is discovery time.

Give me the lasers.
02-02-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 137
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #: 105
Post ID: 18963
Reply to: 18962
Why not just buy Vitavox?
fiogf49gjkf0d
From the Vitavox site: http://www.vitavoxhifi.co.uk/products.php?page=pressure_units

"With the coil wound directly onto the dome there is direct drive - no intervening adhesive joint - and damping of eddy currents. The surround is formed from polyester"

They are indeed very special drivers, they shine mostly on symphonic music!
02-02-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
morespeakers2
Posts 9
Joined on 02-02-2013

Post #: 106
Post ID: 18964
Reply to: 18963
Pushing boundaries what is available above S2.....
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thank you for that interesting and keen observation on the S2, I have never had one to examine. 


Shockingly the only other driver I have seen wind coil on dome is the Peavey 22A! (driver in pic note salt interesting shaker phase plug)


At one point I removed everything that said Peavey from my recording studio when I had one years ago because a large majority of their products are so second rate it bothered me. I do find some very interesting things they have done from time to time though and I have let some of their things hang around these days. 


The reason I love this site is because it probably the only site in English in the world I know of that pushes the limits of the technology of "good sound" and I do hope to create a driver that meets or exceeds the S2 in sound quality.
02-02-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 107
Post ID: 18965
Reply to: 18964
Irrelevant foolishness.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 morespeakers2 wrote:
… I do hope to create a driver that meets or exceeds the S2 in sound quality.

Sorry, morespeakers2, but I feel that what you say does not make any sense. You are trying to build some kind of theoretical postulates how a driver might or might not be destined but you do not factor into all of it any of your personal expertise. This type of approach is the crap that the audio people practice all over the web and I have absolutely no interest to be part of it.

In context of this thread you nominated S2 as some kind of reference to imitate or to build but the only reference about the driver you have is my blabbering. How do you know that I am accurate in my views? Furthermore, how you do know that my objective of getting sound from a specific driver in any way or form might be congruous with your objectives, if you have any objectives?

Selection of mid driver is not a popularity quiz. Many people read my site and then run to buy S2 driver feeling that it will instantly give to them some kind of on the spot gratification. The reality as uselessly is much different and if I am not mistaken there is no one person out there who is happy about S2 drive, or let me to put in this way 0 I am sure  that if I hear HOW S2 driver performs in their setup then I would point out problems to them.

What I am trying to do it that a selection of MF driver is complex combination of audio, cultural, musical, aesthetic and a few other consideration. It is also some vested work how to bring all those consideration together in context of rest inhalation. You absolutely can’t take any driver that you do not know, look at it’s schematic and try to acetate what it might sound if you change some profile and some material. There is a big difference between heard a driver and KNOW the drive, to know how it performs in that it this condition.

It looks to me that you have no in-depth familiar with any of the application you mention, and you did not express any rational sonic objective with those drivers and therefore I do feel that you quest in “creation of a driver that meets or exceeds the S2” is lucid or even serious, therefore does not worth my, or presumably anybody else attention.

Good luck,
Romy


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-03-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
morespeakers2
Posts 9
Joined on 02-02-2013

Post #: 108
Post ID: 18966
Reply to: 18965
Drivers from scratch
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,

I half expected some kind of whipping from you which I fully welcome. I am guessing some of it is to see if I buckle and get all weepy under a critical look at my statements but hopefully you are just trying to possibly get me to clarify my objectives a little better. What ever the reasons I will give it a shot to be a try to be little more clear on what I am trying to do.


1. Very correct I have no idea what  an S2 will sound like and I do see your point in making dangerous assumptions that even though I do seem to share many of the opinions you do about the other things you have tired and described in your system. Seemed like a safe bet initially but until I get some experience with an S2 I won't know if it is something I even care about.


2. So anyway you do have a very good point that maybe I would think the S2 sounds horrible. No I don't know what you think is good sound and I supposed judging by the disproportionate amount of speakers makers in proportion to the much smaller amount of electronics producers we humans have some very different ideas on what makes good sound.


3. I am not  a "me too" or vintage name weirdo, these are only tools for sound reproduction, really I don't give a crap about the S2 or 288.


4. Let me clarify that my objective is to build a high quality home horn loudspeaker that sounds as close as the real life instruments I listen to before the high quality omni capsule stereo configuration or mono mic is sent to the control room of my friends recording studio. I also would like it to like my system have a pleasant sound to my ears while reproducing sound. As even if  speaker sounded very close to the source in real life but is not easy to listen to for long periods of time without fatigue, this speaker would be of no use to me.


5. So where do you start? I do not care about making some wet dream Frankenstein Macondo because that is what Romy has if that is what you are thinking. You have to start somewhere though and I believe the lower mids driver section and then mid bass horn are the places to start and work out from there. I have not read enough on this site to know what your ideas on building a system may be to know if you think this is a sound method. I you could kindly point me to where you have stated you ideas on how you start to build a system from scratch and point me to where you have talked of this on the site, I would appreciate it.


6. "It looks to me that you have no in-depth familiar with any of the application you mention" no shit Sherlock nor did I claim to, I have to admit this is the one thing I am a little surprised at is that you are not being a little more encouraging towards being able to tune your own drivers. 


For someone like myself who is trying to learn what makes compression drivers tick and why they do what they do good or bad, to discourage this I don't understand. I do believe when you understand how these devices make their different sound you will be able to change parameters to fit your sonic objectives, no? 


I mean are there really a lot of people out there playing with the engineering parameters of drivers? Maybe there are but I have never seen much evidence of them or talked to anyone doing it.  


Ok, is this clear enough or does it still all seem moronic to you?


02-03-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 109
Post ID: 18969
Reply to: 18966
You might not understand it now....
fiogf49gjkf0d

morespeakers2,

I would live aside your ideas of “building a system” as it is not the subject of this thread. This thread is about S2 driver and I would appreciate if you keep it this way. I do not sound very encouraging because I think what you do is very unfruitful. You can’t analyze the design of the drivers that you do not know and make assumption how minute design decision of the driver might affect sound. Come on, this is ridicules. Not one in the would tell you. What the point for you to learn how different $300 Chinese violin sound vs. some kind of famous Strud if you do not play the violin and do not even listen it.

Anyhow, let I give you advise what to do it you insist to extract an advice from me. Stop your crusade for ultimate MF driver. Bult some kind of bare bones playback installation on which you would like to use your MF driver. Begin to use that playback and begin to build reference points and practical sonic requirements for your ultimate MF driver. Than try a few existing MF drivers at your inhalation, including your 288 and S2 and define how far they are from the sound you need to be. You need a very specific definitions what they do and what they do not in context of your sonic objectives. Then, ONLY then you might begin to experiments to modify driver or build your own in order to accomplish whatever you are trying to accomplish.

Now read me very carefully: any another approach is a pile of shit that I would not accept seriously. If you long reader of this site then you have read this:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=432

... and you shall know that I consider it absolutely mandatory and if people do not comply with it then I do not waste my time. Do not feel that I am too brutal to you as any other way to deal with audio is a waste of YOUR time. You might not understand it now but if you serious what you do then it will come to you.

Rgs, Romy


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-03-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
morespeakers2
Posts 9
Joined on 02-02-2013

Post #: 110
Post ID: 18972
Reply to: 18969
S2 problems, wish list? how to move forward
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well my intent in the first place was only to discuss and learn about the small details of what makes the S2 and the 288 different mechanically not to discuss system building but it seems you feel I am a little premature to discuss this as you inquired about what I was trying to do, pushing the topic towards system building. 


I am not against trying the S2 in the future but I was just curious about the very small details to cause compression drivers make their different sounds before running out and trying any more drivers. I upset a few speaker distributors several years back going on a wild driver goose chase buying and returning drivers and besides testing the patience of distributors it tired me out also. So I made this post as homework before trying anything to learn possibly what direction to even pursue.


I know you have never been entirely happy with the S2 sound and I thought would be useful and interesting to talk about the S2 problems and maybe shed some light on why it sounds the way it does comparing your experiences to a similar but apparently very different sounding 288 driver.


A quote from your post #2 post id # 18360 Radial vs. annular vs. combination phase plugs."So, unless you are a machinist and make your own drivers (if you are then let to be friends)" I would like to be that friend in the future if you would like. Although at the moment I need complete this sort of interesting and minimally barbaric four way all horn pa/high quality playback system for a night club I am working on. If you still care to make a driver from a clean sheet of paper or care to watch me try and maybe you have some ideas on what can be done differently from your experiences with S2. 


Post #1 post ID:432  titled "Critique audio performance before acquire new element."  Ok, so say we do get that element of a system and critique it fully, how are we supposed to to choose what to move forward with from there? 


So this brings me back to where I would hope we talk about to topic my original post in an effort you might share the small details of the S2 you observed that could possibly make it sound "different" to the 288, it really doesn't matter for this S2 discussion if I like or you like the sound but really to get to the bottom of what has been done to mechanically on each that cause differences in the sound so new paths can be charted. Is this not worthwhile to discuss?












02-03-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 111
Post ID: 18973
Reply to: 18972
Finding Out What Matters
fiogf49gjkf0d
MS2, I don't care much about compression drivers, but I have spent the past 2 1/2 years playing with direct drivers, trying to figure out what makes good sound.  And no matter any notions about "scientific discoveries", the whole process has been the accumulation of useful information via trial-and-error.

Your note about the "direct-to-diaphragm" coil winding might be a place to start your investigations.  Just buy the Peavy and start systematically messing with it.  Try to build on what you like while diminishing what you don't like. MAYBE you will be able to make something you can use from this driver. FWIW, I think if you ever find an old S2 you will have to go through much of this, anyway.

Also, I recommend you continue to read widely at this site.  I don't think Romy or anyone else is going to cull out the info you want/need, and I'm not even sure we can do this for you.

Best regards,
Paul S
02-04-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
morespeakers2
Posts 9
Joined on 02-02-2013

Post #: 112
Post ID: 18977
Reply to: 18973
S2 problems, wish list? how to move forward
fiogf49gjkf0d
Oh well I tried.  I though I was clearly asking some easy questions about two similar drivers and the small details of what makes them sound different. I obviously did not do a good job at this.

I thought Romy being very familiar with the S2 and also familiar with the 288 could quickly simply state a few simple observations between the two or just be honest as say he doesn't know, doesn't care, or doesn't remember.  
Instead I guess Romy being Romy was intent on questioning my motives, goals, methods, and then points me to  a link how to build a system breaking his only request to posters, that is to to keep on topic. All of this rather than getting to the point of the S2 versus 288 mechanical differences only conversation.  I actually do appreciate Romy's responses and it did get me to think a little more about system building, but still no discussion of S2 versus 288 differences for whatever reasons.
My response  "… I do hope to create a driver that meets or exceeds the S2 in sound quality."  should not really have even got any attention as I thought it is nearly everyone's goal to reproduce sound as realistically as possible, maybe this is an unrealistic a black and white goal.  In reality I know everything is a balancing act of compromises in the speaker world, but in the context of recreating sound as closely to the actual source I thought it a reasonable statement, however I am not sure how any of this is relevant to S2/288 conversation. Don't want to go off on these tangents myself here.

So all is not lost, Jorge did point out in post#105, post id 18963, his useful observation of the S2 peculiarities of one style of the S2's different diaphragm's. This is quite a different construction to the 288 diaphragm.


I was hoping Romy might have observed diaphragm to phase plug height, coil gap, radical or small differences in the phase plugs, etc. between the S2 and 288 but whatever. I also thought Romy might like to share what he does not like about the S2 sound (maybe it is here on the site if someone could direct me) and what physical factors he thinks might cause these problems he is always alluding to.  I am sure he has thoughts on these matters. So any way, Romy still not understanding why we can't talk about driver mechanics only, like I said in my other post, what do you do when you have lived with a driver for a long time and then want to shape the sound to what you want?  Isn't being able to engineer your own driver what we should all aspire to be able to do or have someone do for us? Not to keep endlessly trying drivers, not living with sombody else's compromises and marketing goals, not being stuck with sound you don't like for years. 

As my dad was a mechanical engineer I know the process is not hard but does take some dedication and knowledge.  Knowing how different elements change the sound is a huge plus and a big time saver. Really the whole intent of my post was to save time by not reinventing the compression driver but to refine it to meet what ever sonic goals myself or another might have. Ok I have stated all I can for now on this. wheww....jeezz..... 
02-04-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 113
Post ID: 18978
Reply to: 18972
Are we shaking air?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 morespeakers2 wrote:
I am not against trying the S2 in the future but I was just curious about the very small details to cause compression drivers make their different sounds before running out and trying any more drivers. I upset a few speaker distributors several years back going on a wild driver goose chase buying and returning drivers and besides testing the patience of distributors it tired me out also. So I made this post as homework before trying anything to learn possibly what direction to even pursue.
Morespeakers, I do not think that anybody credibly will be able to tell you the relation between the driver design and its sound. I do not mean to a jerk about it, I just do not feel that this knowledge exists. Not only because the sound of compression drivers is in a way dark territory but mostly because understating the sonic results a compression driver prose is a very complex meta-cultural experience and I don’t think that you shall invest the trust of the understanding into anybody. Also, the understanding of this sound is a subject of rest of instillation, so I would advocate again do not look for MF drive in standalone format but rather look for it in context the rest of activity of your playback. The homework that you are trying to do now is worthless and pointless, at least it is my view and I hope you do not mind if I share my view.
 morespeakers2 wrote:
A quote from your post #2 post id # 18360 Radial vs. annular vs. combination phase plugs."So, unless you are a machinist and make your own drivers (if you are then let to be friends)" I would like to be that friend in the future if you would like. Although at the moment I need complete this sort of interesting and minimally barbaric four way all horn pa/high quality playback system for a night club I am working on. If you still care to make a driver from a clean sheet of paper or care to watch me try and maybe you have some ideas on what can be done differently from your experiences with S2. 
Well, all that I or anybody else can offer would be a set of wishes how the driver might be made but it would not be tight in any way or form to any sonic prediction. Do you have 25K to buld a pair of your own drivers? The most important – how will you make your own diaphragms?
 morespeakers2 wrote:
So this brings me back to where I would hope we talk about to topic my original post in an effort you might share the small details of the S2 you observed that could possibly make it sound "different" to the 288, it really doesn't matter for this S2 discussion if I like or you like the sound but really to get to the bottom of what has been done to mechanically on each that cause differences in the sound so new paths can be charted. Is this not worthwhile to discuss?
Yes, it is worthwhile to discuss if you are willing to undertake the task to rebuild the S2 driver and to make it better. This would be a very noble and highly supported by me objective. It will be absolutely not gratifying in the end, cost a LOT, has no assurance that the result might be used in any way or form. Are you the person who is willing to undertake this task with these prospects? You need to be crazy to do it. I am crazy but I never did it, are you saying that you are crazier then I am? I doubt. Also, it is about demonstration of the craziness. A normally crazy person before writing and thinking about the subject get the pair of S2 driver and experiment with them. How else? You are willing to talk about the subject but you are not willing to demonstrate any wasted and tangible action on the subject. So, you shall not be surpassed that someone might recognize your movements as “an internet air shaking”.  Aristotle use to say: “Those that know, do. Those that understand, teach” However those who teach they understand only because they use to DO something….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-04-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 114
Post ID: 18979
Reply to: 18977
A lack of substance so far.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 morespeakers2 wrote:
I thought Romy being very familiar with the S2 and also familiar with the 288 could quickly simply state a few simple observations between the two or just be honest as say he doesn't know, doesn't care, or doesn't remember. 

I would not trust Romy’s view on the subject.  I got my S2 working in the way how it works now (driven by YO186) somewhere in 2008 and I had my 288 somewhere in 2000. It was very different version of myself and my demands for results were way not similar. It is not that I do not know, do not care, or do not remember but rather I invest no trust, conviction or reliance  in my judgment on the subject.
 morespeakers2 wrote:
Instead I guess Romy being Romy was intent on questioning my motives, goals, methods, and then points me to  a link how to build a system breaking his only request to posters, that is to to keep on topic. All of this rather than getting to the point of the S2 versus 288 mechanical differences only conversation.  I actually do appreciate Romy's responses and it did get me to think a little more about system building, but still no discussion of S2 versus 288 differences for whatever reasons.

And I only assure you that if you instead of solicit advise from online people about S2 versus 288 mechanical differences  will look in your own motives, goals, methods AND tangible actions then you will be much more gratified. A homework is not virtual thing but the actual set of self-training that helps you to be familiar with the subject. I know that you want me to give you the list of pimples that I advise to cut off from S2 drive in order to make it “better” but it is not what I do.
 morespeakers2 wrote:
My response  "… I do hope to create a driver that meets or exceeds the S2 in sound quality."  should not really have even got any attention as I thought it is nearly everyone's goal to reproduce sound as realistically as possible, maybe this is an unrealistic a black and white goal.  In reality I know everything is a balancing act of compromises in the speaker world, but in the context of recreating sound as closely to the actual source I thought it a reasonable statement, however I am not sure how any of this is relevant to S2/288 conversation. Don't want to go off on these tangents myself here.

Yes, I went to the tangents but this is the curse of the actions that I feel is appropriate in given case.

 morespeakers2 wrote:
I was hoping Romy might have observed diaphragm to phase plug height, coil gap, radical or small differences in the phase plugs, etc. between the S2 and 288 but whatever. 
But your Romy will never be able to associate those small differences with the actual sound that driver produces.   If S2 and 288 have different sound and they do then who say that size of coil gap, type of Alnico used, phase plug’s slots or the profile of opening would be something that specifically responsible foe sonic differences. There are literally hundreds reason why the drivers might sound different, you are looking for an easy answer – I do not know the answer, sorry.
 morespeakers2 wrote:
I also thought Romy might like to share what he does not like about the S2 sound (maybe it is here on the site if someone could direct me) and what physical factors he thinks might cause these problems he is always alluding to.  I am sure he has thoughts on these matters. So any way, Romy still not understanding why we can't talk about driver mechanics only, like I said in my other post, what do you do when you have lived with a driver for a long time and then want to shape the sound to what you want?

I would like to talk about it with another S2 owner who would convince me with their sincerity by expressing explicit complains about S2 sound, sort of substantiate their claim. THAN, I would be able corroborate with them how I delt with this or that character of S2 sound. 
  
Rgs, The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-04-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
morespeakers2
Posts 9
Joined on 02-02-2013

Post #: 115
Post ID: 18980
Reply to: 18979
Thank you Romy very well put.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 I would like to thank you for taking the time to give me a very satisfying answer and explain in detail your views on the whole subject and give a little more insight in to how you do things. 


Yes I suppose I really knew all along it was coming and was trying to avoid it. The fact that I just need to get some S2's and see what they do for myself. I thought I could possibly cheat a bit and just apply what was done on the S2 to the readily available 288 frames. 


I need to work on reducing the thickness of my skull as the fact of "No substitute for real life experience" was just very recently driven home for me with helping my son with his first pinewood derby car. We went on line looked up "almost" everything needed to win but lost to a kid with more experience. We had best profile, best weight distribution for the very track we were running on, super polished axles that spun for 30 seconds, actually longer than the wining car and many other well tested tricks but the one thing we missed that was not done to our car was having near perfectly balanced wheels.  So in real life at speed that very small out of balance of our wheels caused the car to loose and loose by only a few hundredths of a second at that as the winner demonstrated to me. This very lesson is what you are so kindly trying to tell me with the S2/288 and I get it.


You mention even you were not crazy enough to do your own drivers and that I couldn't be this nuts.......well we shall see, I am pretty nutty and growing up watching my nutty dad make nonexistent very intricate parts for his early brass automobiles has given me quite a bit of confidence in this area. 


As to making new diaphragms in the future , I thought it would be relevant to link this video showing an AEA ribbon mic being manufactured as an inspirational demonstration. Making a compression driver obviously has much different tooling requirements but the press at 1:26 shows the basic idea for molding a driver diaphragm, press for a diaphragm need not be as substantial as the one for the mic screen. I do have all the tooling right now to cut a few different wood phase plugs to replace the plastic Altec tangerine plugs on the 4 way all wood horn non digital pa system I am working on at the moment. This is a real project going on right now for me but should yield some findings that will be applicable to S2 project later on.


Again Romy, thanks so much for the great answers, I will keep you posted on my progress.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHkOkqnJjy0
02-02-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 193
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 116
Post ID: 21522
Reply to: 99
Which S2 diaphragms do you use now?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

Here is the list of the thing to do with Vitavox S2 in order to use it in 4-ways installations. The S2 must not be used in 2, 3 ways systems. It possible to do with S2 whatever you wish but pretty much any other way to utilize them produces some very specific sonic negative manifestations that I very much might name.

....(snip)

Rgs,
Romy the Cat

PS: this is what I have now at the top of my mind. Possibly I missed something then I will add it later on.

Added March 2005: Please read the thread to the end as some of the my view about the use S2 have changed since I've written this article.



Hi Romy,

I have read this thread through (and others) and am just wondering which diaphragms you are using now.  My understanding is that you use the original "metal" diaphragm (produced before about 1970 I believe) in the Fundamentals Channel and a more recent "plastic" diaphragm (post about 1970) in your MF channel.  Is this correct?

Regards,

Anthony
02-04-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 117
Post ID: 21525
Reply to: 21522
Yes, it is all correct.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 anthony wrote:
 Romy the Cat wrote:

Here is the list of the thing to do with Vitavox S2 in order to use it in 4-ways installations. The S2 must not be used in 2, 3 ways systems. It possible to do with S2 whatever you wish but pretty much any other way to utilize them produces some very specific sonic negative manifestations that I very much might name.

....(snip)

Rgs,
Romy the Cat

PS: this is what I have now at the top of my mind. Possibly I missed something then I will add it later on.

Added March 2005: Please read the thread to the end as some of the my view about the use S2 have changed since I've written this article.



Hi Romy,

I have read this thread through (and others) and am just wondering which diaphragms you are using now.  My understanding is that you use the original "metal" diaphragm (produced before about 1970 I believe) in the Fundamentals Channel and a more recent "plastic" diaphragm (post about 1970) in your MF channel.  Is this correct?

Regards,

Anthony

Yep....


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-05-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 193
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 118
Post ID: 21529
Reply to: 21525
S2 Diaphragm Types
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks Romy.

Just for anyone else reading this, Mike Harvey (vitavoxhifi) has given me the following information...

There are two types of S2 diaphragms: pre May 1972 (aluminium type with paper former - fitted standard up to serial 4940 and for about the next twelve months to some later drivers only by customer request) and post May 1972 (direct wound type with polyester surround - fitted standard to serial 4941 and later to this day.  There is a third type, which is the S5/S6 type which is direct wound but features a more compliant (thinner) polyester surround.

How to tell them apart?  The dome surround is the indicator.  This is visible in assembly between the internal diameter of the clamp ring and the dome:
  • White = current type
  • Aluminium (silver) = pre 1972 type
  • Clear = S5/S6 type.  Note with just a cursory glance this type may appear to be silver as you can see the chrome plated top plate beneath
 
Hope this helps somebody. 
08-20-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 110
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 119
Post ID: 25041
Reply to: 21529
Plane wave tube comparison !
hi all. I’ve been collecting some information from a few curious people here in germany.  First of all: a plane wave tube measure of an maintained S2. Once with aluminum Diaphragma and once with the milky one.  

S2_Driver_DeaphragmsCharts.jpeg

  
Blue is the milky. As you can see - to my very surprise! - the aluminum (black) outperforms clearly.Seems like Romy is right. The aluminum is better and its a matter of adjustment to get it work right.   Unfortunately no transparent one here. The other very interesting thing another buddy noticed is regarding those transparent. They do have a different suspension profile. It’s not just the color that changes for entertaining purpose Smile  The S5/6 ones have a more shallow ripple or flater Profile that when using the same shimmer brings the Diaphragma closer to the Phaseplug and as such lowers the prechamber mass and reduces its lowpass effect. That likely boosts the high frequencies or reduces the >2k rolloff. But also dampens excursion and as such the low freq. levels.   
Cheers Josh 
08-20-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 120
Post ID: 25042
Reply to: 25041
S2 with white suspension are only usefull drivers.
Well, I do not measure the difference between S2 metal and white plastic. I do not know what white plastic composition is, I think it is Polypropylene reinforced by fiber but I might be mistaken. The metal suspension diaphragms are not too much usable in my view, perhaps graph reflects it but the graphs does not show nasty resonances that certainly take place with metal suspension. The clear suspension if I remember correctly was mane foe S5 drivers. The S5 is very different driver with ceramic magnet and very different sound. The S6 is a high power version. I think to use with 100W (intend of 10W) and the clear suspension diaphragms was made for those high power drivers.  I am not sure what the difference between clear and white suspension is. The clear feels stiffer with higher Fs but it might be the thermo-conductivity of the suspension is different. For all intended purposes I think only white suspension S2 drivers are useful.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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