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08-03-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,217
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 41
Post ID: 14167
Reply to: 14164
The One Way Way
fiogf49gjkf0d
Haralanov, you might not get it from my actions, but I actually understand and agree with everything you are saying, in principle. At the same time, I have no idea how to address such a sharp peak mechanically, since adding mass as usual would just make the whole area sag, like my pervious filter.  Even the "Purist", Tommy Horning, uses notch filters on his Lowthers, and he is the kind of guy who makes his own tweeters to pair with them.

Since it's you I'm talking to, I will share that I had thought to work some voodoo with those little paper stick-on "dots"; but this sort of hit-and-miss fishing drives me nuts. Also, I keep having the "vision" of painting "dope" or something in a ring around the center of the cone (at the "critical distance" from the center, of course!), even though - again - I have no solid idea and no tools to determine exactly where the actual problem is.  If you know of anyone nearby with a laser inferometer, please direct me!

You have probably played with the Lowthers and Lowther-alikes. Regardless, this sort of thing comes up every so often. What would you actually do, in the real world? I am very open to useful suggestions (while I wait for another round of parts)!


Best regards,
Paul S
08-03-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
haralanov


Bulgaria
Posts 130
Joined on 05-20-2008

Post #: 42
Post ID: 14169
Reply to: 14167
Ok, let see what we have
fiogf49gjkf0d
Paul, I need to see some detailed pictures of your de-whizzered REPS driver including the visible part of its the voice coil and how it is attached to the cone in order to give you any recommendations how to tweak the driver. You can start a new thread because the subject of this conversation does not have relation with the actual thread. Only few people have access to laser intereferometer, so you might laugh at my advice, but try to inspect where is the area of the cone which resonate touching different parts of its surface with your finger, while playing very complex music at loud levels. Have in mind the reason for the peak may be very very complex so some pictures are going to help a lot...
Regards.



"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." -A.E.
08-03-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,217
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 43
Post ID: 14171
Reply to: 14169
You Won't Catch Me Laughing
fiogf49gjkf0d

Many years ago, I taught myself to evaluate a speaker's tone potential by scratching its cone with my fingernails and lightly tapping its surface, so I am very up for this sort of emperical exploration.  I might also make a very light "tool", some sort of "sliver", that I could rest on the surface and watch it move.

I have been very lazy about pictures, so far. But I do have a digital camera, and I want to take advantage of the insight you are offering, so I'll see what I can do.

Best regards,
Paul S

09-04-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,217
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 44
Post ID: 14395
Reply to: 14171
Dealing With What's On Hand...
fiogf49gjkf0d
OK, the Reps is so up-tilted that I cannot deal with it stock without a BH.  So, back to the DX4, because I can't tie the ribbon on the Reps' tail.  I have re-entered Crossover Hell.  Programs and math up the wazoo.  More, anon.

Paul S
09-19-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,217
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 45
Post ID: 14501
Reply to: 14395
3rd Time a Charm?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Sheee-it... I finally got the new coils wound and the "new and improved" X/Os "worked out" and soldered together.  It will take the (removable!) silicone goop overnight to stick the parts to the DEBZ's integrated X/O "bustles"; then I will tip the DEBZs back up, hook them up, and wait for wife-y to go on an errand, or something.

Is it ironic, or a sad state of affairs, or both that I insist on effing with the best pair of speakers I have ever heard?

Remember, this round is not about "adding" anything, since I pretty much got the "weight" last time.  Rather, it is about scrubbing "HF".

Cross yr. fingers.

Paul S

09-20-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,217
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 46
Post ID: 14509
Reply to: 14501
Ha! Score 1 for Modern Medicine!
fiogf49gjkf0d
OK, it looks like the 3rd time was indeed a charm.

No, the new X/Os do not really "correct" problems inherent in the drivers.  That's another story now.  Still, a better power contour helps my DEBZs to sound more correct in terms of voicing and overall balance, with respect to pitch and timbre.  "Space" has "emptied out", just like I wanted and, if only by contrast, mid/upper bass has come up in the mix.  This latter is actually a side benefit; but it is a nice one.

Electricity ranged from not good to bad today, yet it was less obnoxious than usual, I hope this was because of the lower HF volume.

I used only CDs today, because I wanted to be fully remote capable, for testing.  I look forward to good electricity and LPs.

According to my calculations, I have given up some "efficiency" in order to substantially bring down the Lowthers' relentless HF.  But I really can't say I noticed any significant loss in efficiency, since in the past I always put the "meat of the music" where I wanted it (in terms of volume) and just suffered the extra HF.

No surprise, there is less in the way HF "detail" now; but I don't miss that yet.
 
BTW, I wound up setting the ribbon down 6 dB at 13.5 k Hz, 2nd order, and this after re-sloping the whizzers' natural response down by 6 dB/8ve, as well.  And there's still plenty of HF.


Paul S
11-11-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,217
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 47
Post ID: 14921
Reply to: 14509
After the Gold Rush... Another Kind of Success
fiogf49gjkf0d

After another couple of weeks in X/O Hell, I think I at least have the notches where I want them.  Yes, I added another notch filter, because the Lowther response is so ragged that using a simpler curve results in bringing down frequencies I need to leave alone.  I also used Martin King's response curve and impedance plots as a basis this time, so attenuation levels are better, as well.  This time I also tried to correct a baffle step attenuation from last time, and that worked perhaps a little too well, with the low end (amazingly...) PERHAPS a trifle too loud.

All in all, the DEBZXs do sound much better with my now rather complex X/Os than they did with the stock X/Os.  Again, these X/Os and filters mitigate response level anomalies but they do not correct mechanical and electrical problems of the drivers, including the Lowther.  However, like I have said many times before, I can no longer listen at all to the "raw" Lowther, so if only in this sense the experiment is a success.

I am currently weighing the WAF of spending even more time on this, to take out the LCR resistors and sub in some pots that will give me a range of resistance, so I can play with this stuff a little more without having to R&R resistors every time I want to fiddle with it.

The DEBZ speakers now make a HUGE, rich soundfield, and the limiting factors are the drivers, themselves.  I am also attempting to address these more fundamental issues, but "progress" as such does not so far warrent further mention of this gambit.

Paul S

11-13-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,217
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 48
Post ID: 14931
Reply to: 14921
Of Speakers, Amps and Expectations
fiogf49gjkf0d

Against long odds, I got another chance to do some more careful listening yesterday.  On a hunch, I put the Fluke on the ML2s, and, sure enough, the left channel had drifted up to 340mA and the right had moved up to 300mA.  Once I dialed the operating points back to where I wanted them, I finally got to hear what I had/had not accomplished with the DEBZs and my "Powerful SETs".  I was a little anxious to get in a good listen before the new caps go into shock for two months, and I have to say I have accomplished most of what I set out to do.  Sure, I simply abandoned ULF, but I will not feel bad about this until someone else comes up with a way to get true FR at live volumes from one amp.  Right now, I'm good to the high 30's with one amp, "approaching" live volumes; loud enough to get the message, from classical music.

Since no one but me uses full-blown, original DEBZs, this is not so much an advertisement for this speaker design as it is my own attempts to get FR from one SET amp per stereo side, just like the thread header says.  Even if I keep playing with contours, I have fed my curiousity about FR with one amp, and I have in the process pushed the venerable Lowthers a good deal farther than I thought they would go.  In doing all this, I believe I have come up against and gained a better understanding of the stock electrical and mechanical limits of the drivers that comprise my speaker system and, in the process I have also, finally, pushed the effective limits of the ML2s, as far as these particular speakers, at this particular point, are concerned.

Not to sum, but to recap and re-frame:  I am pretty sure at this point that the range from, say, 70 Hz to high enough can be done quite well with a single powerful SET and 3 -4 "way" direct radiators, with 2 amps per stereo side.  To gain dynamics and clarity over what I have now would require "better drivers" (as opposed to significantly different topology), and I have actually started working on this, very slowly.  In the meantime, my DEBZs work better than ever now, by a fair margin, still a single SET amp per side.

Paul S

11-19-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,217
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 49
Post ID: 14990
Reply to: 14931
Mission Accomplished?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Sorry, I couldn't resist the header...

Electricity was OK today and either the X/O parts are already breaking in or I had a "lull" in the expected parts shut-down.  Anyway, I actually wound up seriously listening to some serious music!  Even without full parts break-in, this is as good as I have ever heard, which at least seems to vindicate the approach.  No serious congestion in the mid-90s, and more and better than ever LF integration.  Space continues to empty out the way I want it to, so details no longer depend on extra volume to come across.  This is good because, as I have said, I have brought down the Lowther "detail" peaks.uble notch filters.  And today there were many, many of those "startling" sounds at all system frequency ranges.
 
OK, I am arguably insane...  but I have reason to believe that an extremely elaborate, expensive DIY system appraoch I have been put onto would surpass my "perfected" DEBZs.  The hold-up here is, how to afford the new system, and what will I listen to while I go through the complex process of building and integrating a new system?

In any case, based on present results (and sticking to the thread), I will be using dynamic drivers and "regular" SETs for the foreseeable future.

Paul S
Page 3 of 3 (49 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  $350.000 of audio-scripting foolishness..  Re: $350.000 of audio-scripting foolishness...  Audio Discussions  Forum     1  18093  06-15-2004
  »  New  Speakers: a hi-fi disaster...  Good writing, T......  Audio Discussions  Forum     22  145876  01-16-2005
  »  New  Lamm Industries: a special interview with a special com..  I do not think so but I migh be wrong....  Audio News Forum     94  1043247  09-18-2005
  »  New  About Wilson Audio Loudspeakers..  Nagra HD?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     53  282970  10-05-2005
  »  New  GM70 vs. 6C33C..  Give the GM70 the best shot....  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     13  141598  03-09-2006
  »  New  A quest for a better monitor...  Dome tweeters and brightness in SL600...  Audio Discussions  Forum     97  761918  06-08-2006
  »  New  More power from Melquiades? More powerful tube?..  A new Icon Audio's MB81 Mono Blocks...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     19  191836  09-01-2007
  »  New  A DSET is better then an expensive SET..  DIY Stradivarius...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     41  283666  09-21-2007
  »  New  NAT Audio Magna -160 Watts of Single-Ended Class A..  The KR Audio ways....  Audio Discussions  Forum     5  54639  11-12-2007
  »  New  Midrange driver suggestions..  The Neutral Sounding Driver...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     32  216509  01-02-2008
  »  New  All Active! A DSET and multi-way acoustic system...  Hahaha...  Audio Discussions  Forum     14  88964  01-31-2008
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