| Search | Login/Register
   Home » Horn-Loaded Speakers» Chinese upperbass horn. (36 posts, 2 pages)
  Print Thread | 1st Post |  
Page 2 of 2 (36 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Big mama 1.5" horns......  Crossover point...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     27  169934  09-08-2006
  »  New  45Hz Bass Horn..  Can We Ever be Saved From Ourselves?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     23  249033  09-19-2006
  »  New  Musique Concrete horns..  Electricity and different compression drivers’ diaphrag...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  77995  06-12-2007
  »  New  Jessie Dazzle Project..  Will this better to be auditable?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     172  1214696  08-03-2007
  »  New  Denouncing of idea of Bass Horns...  Denouncing of idea of Bass Horns....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  20217  04-15-2008
  »  New  60hz, GPA-515-8ghp horn.....  60hz horn...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     32  233394  07-01-2008
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  1604584  07-26-2009
  »  New  Experience Music Horn Installation @ VSAC..  RCA MI-1428B vs Vitavox S2...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     25  201731  05-27-2008
08-17-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jeffrey Jackson
Posts 10
Joined on 08-14-2005

Post #: 21
Post ID: 1309
Reply to: 1302
better shot showing the rear chamber...

antidepressants and alcohol cravings

alcohol and antidepressants liver blog.e-lecta.com

medical abortions

buy abortion pill
Hey Romy...

you could be right about the ALE's.. I certainly did like them, but when I went back to that familiar recording it was definitely shelved down low.. it would be easy to assume that I thought that they were "lightweight" because I had never heard bass devoid of heavy second harmionics before, but I have built several basshorns over the years and even have a LABsub style horn in another room.. so I am familiar with "clean".. who knows.. we'll find out when Rich sends me a big compression driver and we start building horns.. I wonder where the happy medium is? the magic spot where mouth size, flare rate, and path length converge... 

anyway.. here's a rear shot.. 

ok..just cruised my harddrive.. no shots of rear.. hmm... I'll take one and post it.. I definitely had to seal the rear.. huge difference.. in this case, nearly 100% positive..  I know that this is not always the case, however.. I have heard open back compression drivers on midhorns that sounded much better than sealed...  I think that open back drivers require more horn loading to keep the lower range as "full" sounding.. just my experience so far... 

and Romy, if you ever have to come to Memphis, stop by.. but I wouldn't suggest August.. steambath around here.. 

oh, and you asked why I propped them up on legs - well, because a horn of this length is quite directional.. I chose lower midrange/upper bass purity over a few hertz.. it was no contest.. I never measured before and after.. it would have been interesting to know.. I have been saying for some time that I am going to seal them not only to the floor, but to each other.. but I haven't done so yet... I did finally add all-thread rod for extensive and very stiff cross bracing.. highly recommended..

but you still have to listen and position.. just like the old days of cones and domes.. 

Best,
Jeffrey 
08-18-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rdrysdale
Anaheim, Calif
Posts 19
Joined on 04-24-2005

Post #: 22
Post ID: 1310
Reply to: 1309
Re: better shot showing the rear chamber...

where can i get an abortion pill for free

where can i get an abortion pill link
     So Jeffery, do you want one or two? Finally, just today I picked up a chuck that will allow me to easily finish some drivers. They are 9 inches in dia. and I've really been struggling with undersized tooling. You have to pay shipping. 
        
Rich
08-18-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,623
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 23
Post ID: 1311
Reply to: 1310
The Rich’s driver

valtrex

valtrex johnsandlund.se

cialis effetti

cialis generico redirect
 rdrysdale wrote:
     So Jeffery, do you want one or two? Finally, just today I picked up a chuck that will allow me to easily finish some drivers. They are 9 inches in dia. and I've really been struggling with undersized tooling. You have to pay shipping.
Rich, can you post some data about this driver of yours, the output diameter, the frequency range, the type of the magnet, cone an suspensions were used, the sensitively, the mounting options and so on. Also, if you plan to make it available then will be the “no phase plug” option available?

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-19-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rdrysdale
Anaheim, Calif
Posts 19
Joined on 04-24-2005

Post #: 24
Post ID: 1321
Reply to: 1311
Re: The Rich’s driver

am i pregnant quiz accurate

am i pregnant quiz
Romy,
     Our bass driver has a 12v field coil motor, it developes just over 20 kilogauss flux density using a low carbon steel pole piece. The exit diameter is 4 inches at the moment. The diaphragm is 6 inches in diameter and made of a single layer of carbon fiber with a 2 inch diameter voice coil using copper clad aluminum wire. The design of the driver is very different from most, the diaphragm is cone shaped and clamped rigidly to the center of the phasing plug, and the perimeter of the diaphragm is made of felt, and clamped with a mounting ring to hold it in place. The combination of rigid center mount and felt surround give a very well damped and precisely located diaphragm. Because the diaphragm is fastened to the phasing plug, it wouldn't be possible not to have the plug, however it would be possible to machine it in such a way that it would act as an exit throat and blend right into the horn. We haven't taken many measurements yet, and the final design is still being optimised. We are trying to find the best compression ratio by machining different exit configurations, and found some errors in calculations in our first design, which was very constricted. We redesigned the voice coil and the phasing plug and have made great improvements over the first drivers. We plan on the operating range to be from 40-50 hz up to 250-300hz. This driver is rather large, the phasing plug is 9 inches diameter, and the driver weighs about 40 lbs.
Rich
08-19-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,623
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 25
Post ID: 1323
Reply to: 1321
Rich’s driver: alleged concerns.

cheap abortion clinics in va

cheap abortion clinics in las vegas tymejczyk.com

 rdrysdale wrote:
Our bass driver has a 12v field coil motor, it developes just over 20 kilogauss flux density using a low carbon steel pole piece. The exit diameter is 4 inches at the moment. The diaphragm is 6 inches in diameter and made of a single layer of carbon fiber with a 2 inch diameter voice coil using copper clad aluminum wire. The design of the driver is very different from most, the diaphragm is cone shaped and clamped rigidly to the center of the phasing plug, and the perimeter of the diaphragm is made of felt, and clamped with a mounting ring to hold it in place. The combination of rigid center mount and felt surround give a very well damped and precisely located diaphragm. Because the diaphragm is fastened to the phasing plug, it wouldn't be possible not to have the plug, however it would be possible to machine it in such a way that it would act as an exit throat and blend right into the horn. We haven't taken many measurements yet, and the final design is still being optimised. We are trying to find the best compression ratio by machining different exit configurations, and found some errors in calculations in our first design, which was very constricted. We redesigned the voice coil and the phasing plug and have made great improvements over the first drivers. We plan on the operating range to be from 40-50 hz up to 250-300hz. This driver is rather large, the phasing plug is 9 inches diameter, and the driver weighs about 40 lbs.
Rich,

lately there was here and there some unhappy voices of the pissed audio-subscribers about the fact that some idiots-reviewers lately got tendency to writhe their reviews based upon the release notes of manufactures and without actually auditioning the components. I mean: a manufacture announces a new model, the reviewer read the specifications and 20 words description of this new product and then….  the “reviewer” go over the pages and pages of audio publications spreading his fantasies how wonderful his Patricia Barber’s double bass sounded in his listening room and how much he felt the Patricia’s attendance on his laps, I am not kidding: it is what they do lately.

Well, I would like to do the very much the same and to share some my own concerns that I got after I read your description.  Feel free to disregard them and an imagination of my madness.

1) With the targeting upper frequency of 250-300hz you have no need to make any phase plug at all. The phase plug is useful to optimize the delays at the throat arriving in the situations when the wavelength is comparable to the geometry of the pathways. In case of 300hz the phase plug is juts a waste of time/money that you spent to make it available. If you need some kind of surface to  “bounce pressure off” with intention to damp the cone then there are many other, less painful ways to do so, not to mention that your cone should not be damped but rather viagranized…. (it will be more about it below)

2) The highpass of 250-300hz make me to question it. There is not good compression drivers that would confidently and with reasonable quality  to do down to 250-300hz. So, are you planning to use your driver only in context of 6-chanle installations?

3) The bandwidth narrowness of your driver concerns me and makes me wonder if the midbass that your driver does is the correct one. Let me to explain. As far as I can see it, one of the greatest problems with any bass driver is the bass-driver’s ability to introduce the HF harmonic overtones within their bass. For instance many bass driver has different type of  “bad” rubber suspension. Their paper cones do OK but the rubber 9mostly very wrong rubber used) suck the HF is and then kills all high frequency’s overtones. As the result, the driver sound completely artificial. The introduction of a complimentary HF channel matching with this rubber-death bass driver do not assist the situation but juts mask it out.. The very similar is taking place in those curved horns. Let forget that in the bent horns each section acts as a individually-tuned resonant chamber and let to look only at the overtones killing. When sound travels across a curve of horn then higher frequencies attenuated more in the curve then LF (reflections). So, the LF harmonics and the fundamentals go through but the HF get killed in the horn’s curves. That is one of the reasons why all curved horns, with conditional exception of the “J-horns”, sound like a dehydrated camel who juts cross Sahara and who is covered with a think layer of shampoo (but without water) on his skin. Looking at all of this I usually feel that a properly sounding midbass driver must be able to handle at least one octave above it’s lowpass cut off.

4) Something suggests me that the carbon fiber cone is NOT something that you will use in this driver eventually and that that the carbon fiber is primary responsible party for the paragraph #3 and #2. I am sure that the VC is trembling in the gap like crazy trying to do wider range but the carbon fiber cone holds it up saying: “Oh, shut up, you shaky little bitch. I’m the carbon fiber - the material that used to suck vibrations out of tonearms, airplanes, and sports motors. I was designed with the specific objectives to increase the harmonic dampening characteristics and you, the miserable voice-coil, should not anticipate me to have any compile with your hysterical movements, even if you’re driven by the reference signal.”  Rich, I feel that by using the carbon fiber cone you severally compromise your driver and I think you eventually will look at the different direction. Perhaps it should be a different type of fiber/cellulose, perhaps it will be metal or some kind of plastic, or perhaps you should explore the opportunity to pre-marinade the cellulose cone (some people I know report promising results with chitin). However, when everything will be working properly I would anticipate that your driver would able to care in a straight horn up to 3K without plug or 4K with phase plug.

Now, I’m as well, feel the Patricia Barber right behind me….

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-19-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jeffrey Jackson
Posts 10
Joined on 08-14-2005

Post #: 26
Post ID: 1324
Reply to: 1323
a reply start on rich's drivers...

zoloft and pregnancy studies

zoloft pregnancy motherisk link
I think first, it needs clarifying that rich is only planning to use the driver from 50 to 250.. it will surely play, and play well, up into the k's.. I'd be very surprised if it didn't play all the way up to the 4kHz of most phenolics..

as to the horns, yes, when you give a horn a snail curve (never a fold!) it will reduce the highs to a very narrow beam.. and although I am with you to some extent on harmonics, a snail will preserve more of the highs than is needed.. the crossover will still likely need to be very carefully implemented.. but this snail option is much better than a fold.. it preserves the straight horn sound if done properly.. I actually think that what the driver is adding above the passband is what is causing the slight trouble I hear in my straight horn.. the paper cone driver is adding too much from it's own resonant characteristics.. it slightly muddies the mids..

and which driver is rich using down to 250, you ask?  his own!  it will play quite happily down to 250 Hz.. much lower on a proper horn.. I believe Steve said something ridiculous like 10Hz on teh plain wave tube.. and up to 17kHz last I heard..

and carbon fiber... this is for sure a tough one.. and one that Steve was most concerned about.. he is a vintage and paper maniac.. but to label all carbon fibers the same is to say all woods are the same.. even more categorizing than that.. it totally depends on the resins used and the quality, type, orientation, etc of the fibers.. it can eat life from music or pass it on.. you have to play to get it correct (I did my thesis on thermoplastics - I wish I had kept up my work in that field - it was interesting).. I just think that "streophools" have taken it too far dead just like everything else..

now phasing plug and damping?  you may be very right, Romy.. there is so much we don't know.. and I think Rich would agree.. we can only hope that in the next 50 years of playing with horns with our renewed focus on home hifi that we can try many of the options and try to figure out WHY things sound as they do... good or bad..

so, yeah, I am on rich's side.. one, because he is a super nice guy.. two because his machining is world class.. and three, because he is rolling his own compression drivers!  I gotta support that...

conclusion?  I don't know.. let's continue with the constructive feedback... but there were a lot of points in there that I wanted to clarify or at least give my biased opinion on..

Rich? Romy?

Peace,
Me
08-19-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rdrysdale
Anaheim, Calif
Posts 19
Joined on 04-24-2005

Post #: 27
Post ID: 1325
Reply to: 1323
Re: Rich’s driver: alleged concerns.

cialis generico 2017

cialis generico in italia

amlodipin teva

amlodipine
Romy,
     You make all very good points. I probably shouldn't call the front of the driver a phasing plug, because actually the long wavelengths really don't care much about the shape of the exit, they will just pass right through. It is more of a compression control device. Both of our compression drivers do low frequencies very well, our high frequency driver is flat to about 100 hz, and is only about 10 db down at 10 hz when measured in a plane wave tube. We haven't measured the bass driver yet, but I suspect it is probably flat to 20-30 hz. The bass driver will play to about 8 khz, and actually sounds quite good up to that frequency. A bent horn does very much concern me, I think Jeffery is on the right track with a straight bass horn, maybe one could be built to exit into the room, and dive under the floor for most of it's length, but then there would be no adjustment for location. Steve is currently looking into some bend designs based on early designs that minimize the effects on the high frequencies, something to do with the configuration of the width to the height of the bend. We didn't know what to expect from the carbon fiber, the original RCA drivers were made with phenolic resin and very thin silk cloth. We haven't been unable to get any suitable samples of phenolic resin to try, and since I have a patent using carbon fiber in the aerospace industry, we decided to give it a try. The very first diaphragms that we made actually sound better than the phenolic and produced slightly higher frequencies. The carbon fiber is lighter than the phenolic, and is a little stiffer, plus there is no noticible ringing when the diaphragm is tapped. There may be other materials available that perform even better, and we will always look for these, but right now we are very happy with the carbon.
Rich
08-19-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,623
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 28
Post ID: 1327
Reply to: 1325
More arond the Rich’s driver.

 rdrysdale wrote:
The bass driver will play to about 8 khz…

OK, this dose make some since, become I understood you that it droops after 300Hz.

I wonder what made you to select the 300Hz as a crossover point – the currently existing horn of the actual evaluation which driver sounds better at upper-upper bass? The reasons why I asked because of you said  “actually sounds quite good up to that frequency” (that I doubt as I feel that a good midrange driver should be more alive at upper midrange). Did you consider letting your bass horn to run way upper then 300Hz? I went over those experiments few years ago and I detect that 200-500 Hz are one of the most important frequencies where most of the fundamentals live and where is better do not have any driver’s ambiguity.  Also, there is another VERY important point. If you have your midrange driver to operate down to 300Hz then your midrange horn should have rate somewhere around 170Hz. This is a big ass horn and conspiring that you go for the fairly LF-heavy midrange the sucker should be really heavy. Contrary, pretend that you let the MF driver to run down to, I would say 500Hz. Now you can do away with a manageable 300Hz horn. The beautiful part is that that this smaller horn will be substantially shorter. As the result, the MF will output more HF (never hurt) and the most important the dissipation pattern will be WAY wider. You really might want listen 300, 500, and 800Hz produced by bass channel vs. MF channel and find out which sounds better. If you do find that the upperbass horn does better at HF then you defiantly need to match the MF horn to ~50%-70% off of the MF driver’s cut off. This is very important as if you have the MF horn too large than you loosing dissipation, loosing HF and gaining some boomy heaviness. If you have the MF horn too small then you have honk combine with aggressive and sharp sound….

 rdrysdale wrote:
  A bent horn does very much concern me, I think Jeffery is on the right track with a straight bass horn, maybe one could be built to exit into the room, and dive under the floor for most of it's length, but then there would be no adjustment for location.

A bent horn should not concern you: it should not be used. To go over all hassle you are going, to make own driver and to stick it into a bent horn is similar to us catching Osama Bin Laden and appoint him as president of United States. Oops, sorry - the bad example: if it happens then hardly anything will be changed in Washington….

 rdrysdale wrote:
We didn't know what to expect from the carbon fiber, the original RCA drivers were made with phenolic resin and very thin silk cloth. We haven't been unable to get any suitable samples of phenolic resin to try, and since I have a patent using carbon fiber in the aerospace industry, we decided to give it a try. The very first diaphragms that we made actually sound better than the phenolic and produced slightly higher frequencies. The .carbon fiber is lighter than the phenolic, and is a little stiffer, plus there is no noticible ringing when the diaphragm is tapped. There may be other materials available that perform even better, and we will always look for these, but right now we are very happy with the carbon.

I do not know – I kind off agree with Jeffery: I should not label all carbon fibers the same. Perhaps there are some carbons out there that would not behave like …. Sorbothane. I personally hate carbon fiber in tonarms and this all that I experienced in Sound. Still if I did something like you do I would try some marinated paper, and yes, the marinated fabrics as the outer suspension.  Many good drivers with good tone use fabrics for externals suspension. We kind of never know what will work in there but to change the recipe of the marinate is always easier then to manufacture a new cone… I would be fun if you conclude that the best result you got if you soak a cellulose cone in 29-year-old Scotch…  :-)

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-19-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rdrysdale
Anaheim, Calif
Posts 19
Joined on 04-24-2005

Post #: 29
Post ID: 1328
Reply to: 1327
Re: More arond the Rich’s driver.

citalopram 20mg

citalopram 20mg read here
You have some very good ideas, some I hadn't thought of before, the main reason for the 300hz crossover is to keep the crossover out of any important areas of music and voices. Moving the crossover up might solve some problems, especially the huge hf horn. I will talk to Steve about some of your ideas. We might be able to get a few more highs out of the hf driver, and never need a tweeter.
Rich
08-19-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,623
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 30
Post ID: 1329
Reply to: 1328
50Hz of the Rich's kiosk.

viagra vs weed

viagra vs weed link

lexapro and weed high

lexapro and weed

Rich,

I think it’s too early to seriously to talk about sound of your driver. As I understand you have no horn for this thing. Your comment that the driver goes all the way unto 8kHz clearly indicates that you used wrong horn before. If you stick a driver into 4” throat of a promptly bult horn then… bye-bye the driver. The horn will completely overwrite the driver’s performance and the driver’s characteristics even if you go for a shortest tractrix profile. People mostly accustom to the Altec, JBL, Edgar and others toy-like upper-bass horn with oversized throat of almost triangular shape when the driver is acting as a direct radiator. In those so-called horns the horn largely inherent the sonic attributes of thier drivers … because in their “horns” the driver are responsible for sound not the horn loading is responsible for sound.

You, in your case went for very radical 4” throat with targeted 40Hz-50Hz of mouth. This is very drastic and your huge horn that will be required will wipeout what you know about the sound of your driver. When you put a first time RTA with the driver mounted to the horn then you will know what I mean….

Anyhow, I assure you that in 4” to 50Hz horn your driver will hardly be able to care 4kHz and what if does then it be very strange and very spooky decay, and that would be all right. Still, finding the correct value of filtering coil for this channel, find out how the voice coli of your midbass driver affect the MF driver, to find out how to tune the back chamber to the given horn, learn hot to deal with resonanses on the cone when the cone begin to feel the throat reactance of that all air in the bell of the horn….  and many other thing should take I would say a few month. It is if you have the horn already built…

Rich, when you bult the pair of those straight 4” to 50Hz horns (it looks like 10”) and make the rest of your system to work with it then give me a call and invite me in your place. Nope, not necessary to listen your playback! What I will be doing is opening a small kiosk next to your home and will be selling the tickets to the varicose Morons, demonstrating to them what Audio might lead to….. :-)

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-20-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jeffrey Jackson
Posts 10
Joined on 08-14-2005

Post #: 31
Post ID: 1332
Reply to: 1329
Now you are getting to the real crux - crossover points...

naloxone nalorphine and naltrexone

naltrexone and naloxone difference read
and this is the huge decision.. although Steve and Rich's drivers do have the potential for extremely wide bandwidth, I feel that the first decision when designing a horn speaker is to decide how many horns and the corresponding crossover points.. then pray that suitable drivers exist.. if not, then make them... 

traditionally in modern horn home hifi, the 500 cycle crossover point is observed and 1" exit Be or Al diaphragmed drivers are used from 500 to the top of their range.. sometimes supertweeter is thrown in... but the real problem is what to use below 500.. as Romy pointed out very well, this is usually a 15" woofer that is poorly horn loaded to 200Hz and then used as a drastically shelved down direct radiator from 200 down.. bleh!  We can do better...   

so what Romy is proposing is a straight horn that plays from 50 to 500.. and I hope he can design/build one.. it is a difficult task.. you need to the top end to extend at least another octave up for crossover purposes and that is a task.. what you need for 1kHz is way different for what you need at 50Hz.. my horn doesn't sound all that great at 1kHz, although it measures well to that frequency.. personally, I found that the lower I could push that crossover frewquency, the better my system sounded.. the more you can cram into that mid horn the better.. and you still have to deal with what goes below 50Hz... Rich's monster bass horn is one solution...

Personally, I think that 3-way is possible.. and and I want to maximize that midhorn.. yes, make it large.. I have been working on a 180Hz flare.. so I hope to get a solid 250Hz from it and up to 5kHz minimum.. any great tweeter can take over from here.. (too bad there aren't many great tweeters).. so, anyway, with the basshorn only having to play to 250Hz, it can be made slightly larger.. and hopefully play slightly lower.. I'd like a basshorn for my three way that plays low enough that it doesn't require a sub for most music listening.. sure, you know you are missing the last octave, but is it VERY enjoyable? I am hoping so.. I was never able to integrate a sub into my current system.. not without killing the life.. and I tried one of the craziest overbuilt drivers I could find.. that multiple shorting ring monster that JBL built for Revel.. 

so, I don't really know the "answer", but I think that you should get the midrange right first and then work outward from there... that has always served the music best at my house.. so now you know my biases.. I love dynamic contrast and I am a midrange slut.. ;^)

Peace,
Me  
08-20-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rdrysdale
Anaheim, Calif
Posts 19
Joined on 04-24-2005

Post #: 32
Post ID: 1334
Reply to: 1332
Re: Now you are getting to the real crux - crossover points...
Jeffery,
    I think Romy brought up some good points about moving the crossover up. I've always wanted to push it down, to use the hf driver more as a full range unit, which is probably the wrong to go. Steve proved this to me when we had the deqx hooked up, because it's so easy to make a crossover. When we crossover down to 200hz everything starts sounding terrible, just starts sounding right at a little over 250hz. We never crossed over above 300, we need to do this. The problem is that in order to realize the full potential of a change, the hf horn should be redesigned. I need a fast way to prototype horns, since I can't go down to K-Mart and get one. One of the Better horn designers around told me the other day that vocals will sound better through a horn of a smaller size and with a higher cutoff. We had a listener over recently that said he could hear some muddiness at one of the frequencies, only wasn't able to pin it down exactly. That might be the crossover being too low, and the hf horn being too large.
Have to go
Rich
08-21-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bud
upper left crust united snakes
Posts 87
Joined on 07-07-2005

Post #: 33
Post ID: 1335
Reply to: 1334
The usual bleat....

This has been a very informative discussion folks. I am not a horn person... not through any lack of interest, but I am married. So, direct radiators rule.

However, I do not like the sound of speakers and so developed a process for turning cone and other styles of drivers into single pass transmission line emitters. Does not matter what frequency ranges you might choose.

This is only important in that I am offering to treat a test case for you guys, that may free up your choices in the critical fundamental range. And, Romy will be rearranging my posterior over a tweeter I recently sent him to test sometime this week or next. So we know we will have a report biased towards music making rather than specs.

If one of you has a driver that almost works, preferably a paper cone but any type will work, I am offering to provide a small experiment that just might relieve some problems. Think about supplying your horn throat with a phase and time coherent flat wave. One that, like Soliton waves, holds on to it's energy coherence regardless of what it encounters..... anyone interested? It will be free for a few of you....
Bud

08-21-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,623
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 34
Post ID: 1336
Reply to: 1335
3-ways & the feather-made horns.

progesterone fiv

progesterone def charamin.com

 Jeffrey Jackson wrote:
  I feel that the first decision when designing a horn speaker is to decide how many horns and the corresponding crossover points.. then pray that suitable drivers exist.. if not, then make them...

I’m religiously against this approach. Most of the bad thongs people do with drivers, crossovers and channels utilization is because exactly this vision. To intellectualize the crossover points, to project a desired amount of channels and then search for the driver is VERY absurd way to go.  Everything starts from an observation of performance of a specific driver when you recognize what the driver needs and detect at which frequencies and under witch loading the driver does what you need, then, only then (!) the ideas how this driver might be used (including it’s conjunction with others channels). There is NO other ways to go!

 Jeffrey Jackson wrote:
  Personally, I think that 3-way is possible…

I do not. Horns produce very different and kind of “dry” upper midrange.  There is a secret how to use that upper midrange. I learned over my experiments and auditioning many different horns that in order to soften out this upper midrange and balance it subjectively a horn installation MUST have LF section that goes all the way down to sub 25-30Hz. The LF needed not for sake of sound but for the sake of “compiling” the “strange” radiation patterns, to hydrate the horn’s upper midrange and for few other things. Many folks use horns upper midrange within their systems that can handle properly no lower then 40-50Hz and consequentially they end up with typical “bad horn sound”…. So, no horn channel can do 20Hz, unless you live in angar for Boeing 727.  In addition I have Real Estate like this then not exactly believe conceptually into the lower bass horns. Therefore, I do not feel that a properly performing 3-way system is possible. When a channel take care about 20-30Hz then the demands for those drivers, those enclosures and the entire ways of LF producing is totally different then with other channels, so it would still require as dedicated channel. Yes, the 3-way is possible…. with a complimentary extra LF channel. Certainly it feasible to get good sound with 3 channels but, come on! If I am being a snob then I should be a compulsive snob and go all the way down….

 rdrysdale wrote:
When we crossover down to 200hz everything starts sounding terrible, just starts sounding right at a little over 250hz. We never crossed over above 300, we need to do this.

And when you cross your driver it at 600Hz the MF will sound way even better then it sounds now.

 rdrysdale wrote:
  I need a fast way to prototype horns, since I can't go down to K-Mart and get one.

You might try what I did: make them form paper. Regular thick paper, in my part I got a large roll from a client of mine that “went to dark” and I made many horn form that paper. You should not make good horns to try but the “10-minutes horns”. They all will be conical and they all will have huge paper coloration, not to mention the huge throat distortions. After listing a few of them you will be able to tune- off you listening consciousness from those coloration and listen ONLY what you intend to listen. I still have in my storage some experimental horns of mine; the paper horns coated with rubber glue and spread with lead shots while the glue was fresh… Certainly the paper horns are very rough approximation but they is juts prototypes… it is nice to change the horn cut-off by re-applying Scotch in a new location…

Rgs,
The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-28-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
slowmotion


Oslo, Norway
Posts 60
Joined on 07-22-2004

Post #: 35
Post ID: 1363
Reply to: 1304
Re: Live bass

viagra cena dr max

viagra cena crossbordercapital.com
Hi
 Romy the Cat wrote:
…. The “live” bass never “dynamic” and ... Rgs,
Romy the Cat
?????? I don't understand what you mean here, Romy? To me "live" bass ( like when listening to an orchestra ) is much more dynamic than any reproduced bass I've ever heard. Also if listening to a real contrabass in a normal listening room the real thing is way more "dynamic" to my ears... cheers, Jan
08-28-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,623
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 36
Post ID: 1364
Reply to: 1363
Some sensibility about bass reproduction

benadryl

benadryl loekkenglas.dk

mixing adderall and weed

mixing xanax and weed blog.myexpensesonline.co.uk

 slowmotion wrote:
I don't understand what you mean here, Romy?

To me "live" bass ( like when listening to an orchestra )
is much more dynamic than any reproduced bass I've ever heard.
Also if listening to a real contrabass in a normal listening room
the real thing is way more "dynamic" to my ears...
Jan, this is quite difficult to get “as is” (this why I put the "dynamic” in quotes) and as usually there is something behind. I will try to explain what I meant

Anyhow I was thinking about it a lot a few years back and this is what I concluded. When we talk about "bass dynamic" we do not imply bass’ dynamic range. We do not really feel bass’ dynamic range. We can instantly identify a compression of dynamic range at higher frequencies but with bass it works differently. The Bass’s octave very short and bass usually is not evenly reproduced within octaves. Furthermore the mechanisms of bass reproduction, being imbedded into listening space, introduce very high contamination of bass by own residues of reproduction efforts. As the result, the dynamic envelop of bass at very high degree overwritten but the methods or reproduction (it will be more on some other aspects lower).

When we register reproduced bass we unwillingly loosing out humane reference to "dynamic” (as dynamic range) of bass notes and instead we recognize the "dynamic” as a motion of bass in space. Interestingly that as soon we recognize the “dynamic” of bass as a movable, variable and changeable force than the “dynamic” characteristics (attack/decay) of playback systems become prominent (actually they are always prominent but with bass it juts even more dominating). The attack/decay parent of bass has MUSH more affect on us then the absolute dynamic range of the bass’ octaves. Still, when we recognize the “absolute dynamic range” we presume the deviation of signal over the noise floor. Well, the nose floor in bass region is quite complicated thing and it is not accident that I used the phrase: “the attack/decay of ENTIRE playback system”

Bass to be properly reproduces should be enveloped into a certain acoustic environment, the certain reverberation time or what called the “decay time” (usesly we use –60dB and look how long it might be in seconds). The shorter reverberation time the sharper and “faster” bass sounds (in addition the effect of phase randomanization within the diminutive RT60 has not space/time to kick-in). But here is the catch: we do not want this “sharp bass” to exists because it sound like claps. So, the wily engineers UNINTENTIONALLY implement into this speakers and amplifiers the mechanisms that would produces “better bass” in the environments were bass should be naturally “too sort” and “too fast”.  So, while we false-fertilize bass with overwhelming amount of the lowest (usually second) harmonics, twist attack/decays of our amplifiers and do some crazy “tricks” with amplifiers/speakers interfaces we overwrite bass unrecognizably and present to ourselves juts dead overly possessed bass. To look at this “dead bass” and try to estimate it’s “absolute dynamic” is similar to looking at fish broth and trying to assess if it was an ocean or a river fish.

So, what we feel, when we are talking about "live" bass being more dynamic, is the fact was not bass but the Symphony Hall with it’s 40Hz decay at 60dB within 3-4 seconds. Also it was the sound where there are no thermodynamic distortions by poor electronics, no flux modulations of magnetic, no mechanical genericism of speakers’ suspensions and no many others “seriousness eliminating contributors”.

Looking at all of this, when I try to reproduce bass I at trying to imitate not the bass itself but the attack/decay patters of the listening environment and therefore most of the reproduced bass that I have hear for audio it “too fast” for me. This “too fast” and “too dynamic” might be OK for any music but as soon we hit classical music then the “fast” bass act like a knife among the ribs.  The bass should not be fast or slow: a reproduces listening space should sound like the “life” listening space and the bass in this space should be whatever it is. It is VERY- VERY- VERY complicated to replica the real dynamic range of bass AND at the SAME time to maintain the reproduces listening space’s attack/decay patters AND at the SAME time to use the LF channels to control the reverberation times within the reproduced space (you would need two LF transducers: one to care the signal and another to counterfeit the decay signature of the “optimum” for given octave listening space)

In the end the wrong attack/decay patters is MUCH more DEVASTATE MUSIC then a compressed dynamic range and this is why I always say that “live” bass never “dynamic”. The “live” bass rather has long decay and (BECAUSE OF THIS) it feels like it has high dynamic range. I do not think that this is imposable in playback.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


PS: That all is not a secret and in way it is all commonly known things. The only regretful part that I feel that since I posted it I will see in a few months some kind another idiot-reviewer will brainlessly snatch the entire notion and will shove to the poor audiophiles some kind of new farts-producing machines. It has happened a few times before in audio publications. I remember in past, when I made some serious posts at AA, I had a tradition to intentionally implant in the concepts some strategically placed errors and I was very gratified when I have seen that the idiot-reviewers swallowed and copied the whole peace without even remote understanding what the hell they read. Few time those cretins even use my “off the wall” semantic. What was even more disgusting (it happened twice) that before the industry assholes decided to convert my serious posts into this marketing BS they made the dirt that runs the AA to delete my posts form AA archives.




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Page 2 of 2 (36 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Big mama 1.5" horns......  Crossover point...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     27  169934  09-08-2006
  »  New  45Hz Bass Horn..  Can We Ever be Saved From Ourselves?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     23  249033  09-19-2006
  »  New  Musique Concrete horns..  Electricity and different compression drivers’ diaphrag...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  77995  06-12-2007
  »  New  Jessie Dazzle Project..  Will this better to be auditable?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     172  1214696  08-03-2007
  »  New  Denouncing of idea of Bass Horns...  Denouncing of idea of Bass Horns....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  20217  04-15-2008
  »  New  60hz, GPA-515-8ghp horn.....  60hz horn...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     32  233394  07-01-2008
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  1604584  07-26-2009
  »  New  Experience Music Horn Installation @ VSAC..  RCA MI-1428B vs Vitavox S2...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     25  201731  05-27-2008
Home Page  |  Last 24Hours  | Search  |  SiteMap  | Questions or Problems | Copyright Note
The content of all messages within the Forums Copyright © by authors of the posts