| Search | Login/Register
   Home » Playback Listening » “How audio might sound” (9 posts, 1 page)
  Print Thread | 1st Post |  
Page 1 of 1 (9 items) Select Pages: 
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  What constitutes a great audio performance…..  What constitutes a great audio performance…...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  7796  05-20-2008
  »  New  The Absolute Sound of Audio Idiocy...  Different ways of listening...  Playback Listening  Forum     13  64640  08-06-2008
  »  New  About the Playbacks’ Thinkability...  The right stuff...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  28135  01-30-2009
  »  New  What I am doing?..  What am I (Axel) doing?...  Playback Listening  Forum     15  67444  05-12-2009
03-12-2005 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 745
Reply to: 745
“How audio might sound”

Audio people know how “live” music sounds and what impact it has to listener. Well not all of them know, and a large number of them never visited concert halls and are familiar with music only by the chest pressure that they experienced at pop-clubs but still, most of audio people do familiar in one way or another with live music: would it be quarters during the expensive corporate parties, lounge orchestras at fancy clubs or the acoustic bands at weddings or funeral…. Now the question is: what audio people know about reproduced music and what options they have to educate themselves about what is possible in audio?

I do not think that audio people have any opportunities to learn about possibilities of audio and to educate themselves what would be possible by extreme reproductive means. As the result audio people quite blindly subscribe new marketing campaigns without own ability to understand a scene of own actions and motivations. Truly, even if you a person lives a large urban environment surrounded by a circle of big cities with countless opportunities, then s/he still has very limited chance, if any, to be exposed to a playback that might demonstrate what is possible in audio (let do not even think about a person who lives at middle of I would say Montana or Minnesota)

Really, we all know that a network of dealerships does not demonstrate good sound. There are lots of objective reasons for it but it is a well-known unfortunate fact that no one dealer’s showroom is good enough to educate about the capacity of real audio. The situation is little better with the manufacturer’s showrooms but only very slightly and they all as well do not really push envelops of possibilities, even within the limitation of own products.  The semi-privet listing rooms of industry professionals: manufacturers, editors, reviewers are usually insultingly horrible and although many of them love to expose thier playback results to visitors but you most likely will experience in there very laughable Sound. Ironically the situation is not different with privet parties. There are many circumstances, objective limitations and other conditions that objectively limit privet parties to peruse a possibility threshold of sound reproduction. In addition, the quality of general audio crowd is so primitive that the more the privet person accomplished in audio the less s/he has interest to share the results of his/her achievements with a wide mass of audio hoodlums.

So, where a person who is interested to learn about “Crucial Audio” might learn? I do not think that there are opportunities for that person.

I think that all leads to an interesting conclusion. I would propose a business venture that might be quite successful and surprisingly will serve a pubic interest at the same time. Let parent a hypothetical person who has an interest to make his/her living by means of Audio. Let pretend that s/he has knowledge, skills, expertise and ability to build up, to serves, and to demonstrate a hypothetical envelop-pushing “Crucial” playback at the most evolved levels. Why this person do not build audio-demonstration room somewhere at metropolitan region, use it explicitly to demonstrate to people what is possible in audio and to charge people for the delivering of those experiences?

It would be a best investment for an ordinary audiophile-Moron ™ if s/he schedules listening hour and paying I would say $500 had a chance to see what is possible (I would pay!). This might be really audio-life altering experience and it would be hugely beneficial for all future audio views. Unfortunately those types of “believes expanding rooms of Critical Audio” do not exist and no one even thinks to go to this direction. It is very pity and without this the audio people have no really ability to learn how audio might sound.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-12-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 746
Reply to: 745
Let's suppose ....

amlodipin krka

amlodipin 5 mg ecblog.azurewebsites.net
That such ideal bussiness is open and I go there to pay a listen to an "out of parameters" system which really enlightens myself about what can be obtained with audio. The questions come later. How can I get the devices to set up a system with those benefits? what if I don't have the time, knowledge or skills to build some speakers or amps, not even to modify existing units? what if I, after all, discover that not even a really interesting system is capable to give me the listening benefits I thought I could get?

I would pay to know if a domestic system, into what would be my listening room, can make music, but it would be a deception discovering that I could never have that in my place. Perhaps it would be even more interesting knowing how to get interesting musical sound from available products.

Regards,

AJ
03-13-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 747
Reply to: 746
Re: Let's suppose ....

amlodipin krka

amlodipin

I disagree, Antonio. I feel that if that “Stressed Playback Demonstration” be conducted then a listener should not even be aware neither what components-topology were used nor what kind principles were utilized to accomplish the result. What should be avoided is a situation when a person heard something that he greatly appreciated and then stupidly run to a store and buy those black boxes – I have seen it many-many times and I always felt disappointed when it happened.

Sure questions come later but who said that the answers should be delivered and who said that answers even exist? If an average person with a standard audiophile background would experience a great playback installation then this person NEVER able to identity the ingredients that were responsible for the system greatness. Here is an important part: whatever the ordinary audiophiles know or understand about audio  (no mater how little it is) has NO RELATION with the practical methods that should be used to accomplish those "great installations".

In fact, I do not believe that it possible to teach anyone to those "methods". You see, the key word in here is self-evolvement and an ability of a person to sense the things, to educate her/himself how and what to listen while they listening and his/her ability to react accordingly. I do not think that those things could be taught; they could be reached but not taught. Those skills and answers come from within and could be only self-developed. It like playing stings or building up a taste: you can certainly be trained but until you exercise at your own you never reach a high intensity of those “skills”.

Therefore, I think those “Stressed Playback Demonstrations” should juts reveal what is possible (and this is enough!!!) and then the person should be abandoned to be on his/her own. Any further assistance from the side of those playback builders would unavoidably inject the builder’s ego and it is a completely unnecessary not to say evil thing.

Antonio, be advised that I personally do not believe that those Stressed Playback Demonstration Rooms could exist in the format that I proposed: there are many objective reasons why.  At least they could not come up from the people who are plugged into audio industry. There are many self-regulating settings that severely limit audio professionals and hugely condition them,  and in the end unavoidably removes any audio potency from their hands and heads.

Rgs,
The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-13-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 748
Reply to: 747
Re: Let's suppose ....

mixing ibuprofen and weed

mixing lexapro and weed
 Romy the Cat wrote:

I disagree, Antonio. I feel that if that “Stressed Playback Demonstration” be conducted then a listener should not even be aware neither what components-topology were used nor what kind principles were utilized to accomplish the result. What should be avoided is a situation when a person heard something that he greatly appreciated and then stupidly run to a store and buy those black boxes – I have seen it many-many times and I always felt disappointed when it happened.




Well, we're human and we're all looking for something, some we know what we would like to "feel" when we listen to our systems and have some clues about how to get it, but we really don't know if those things will work in our room and for our own "personality" in the same way they work for the person setting up that "SPD". But having some ideas of the sonic attributes that accomplish that "feeling" would be very helpful. So you couldn't help that someone listening to such a system wanted to build a clone of it.

 Romy the Cat wrote:

Sure questions come later but who said that the answers should be delivered and who said that answers even exist? If an average person with a standard audiophile background would experience a great playback installation then this person NEVER able to identity the ingredients that were responsible for the system greatness. Here is an important part: whatever the ordinary audiophiles know or understand about audio  (no mater how little it is) has NO RELATION with the practical methods that should be used to accomplish those "great installations".

In fact, I do not believe that it possible to teach anyone to those "methods". You see, the key word in here is self-evolvement and an ability of a person to sense the things, to educate her/himself how and what to listen while they listening and his/her ability to react accordingly. I do not think that those things could be taught; they could be reached but not taught. Those skills and answers come from within and could be only self-developed. It like playing stings or building up a taste: you can certainly be trained but until you exercise at your own you never reach a high intensity of those “skills”.

Therefore, I think those “Stressed Playback Demonstrations” should juts reveal what is possible (and this is enough!!!) and then the person should be abandoned to be on his/her own. Any further assistance from the side of those playback builders would unavoidably inject the builder’s ego and it is a completely unnecessary not to say evil thing.

Antonio, be advised that I personally do not believe that those Stressed Playback Demonstration Rooms could exist in the format that I proposed: there are many objective reasons why.  At least they could not come up from the people who are plugged into audio industry. There are many self-regulating settings that severely limit audio professionals and hugely condition them,  and in the end unavoidably removes any audio potency from their hands and heads.

Rgs,
The Cat


Undoubtedly you're right, this would be just an exposition to "what can be done" and it would work for people with the same kind of background, interests and goals of the person setting up the SPD. If that system is setup for the best possible reproduction of recorded symphonic music and the eventual listener also wants to listen to huge choral works, perhaps it wouldn't work as good for him. This person should get his system to optimize his experience with the kind of music he wants to listen to.

The problem as I see it is that building these kind of "Ultrasystems" requires an inner growth and acquiring some skills and knowledge that in these times we're living people is not ready to spend on them. All they want is "plug and play", they want the results and don't want the hard work behind the results, which are so personal and self conditioned that aren't transferrable from one person to another. There are some very basic principles which can be tought, but little else. It's something comparable to learning to play a musical instrument, you can learn the fingers postions and movements, you can learn to read music, but nobody will ever teach you to feel what you're playing and how to transfer your own emotions, intentions and essence into what you're playing, unless you go into formulaic tricks.

Being exposed to a SPD would be interesting, but as you see it and I understand it should be, it might produce more distress and frustration than being as blind as most of us are now. It would be as frustrating as exposing a person eating survival pre-cooked food all his life to a delicious meal with belluga, the finest sirloin, cakes and wines you can find on Earth, cooked by the best cook, and after that leaving him back again to his survival food. Just a nice experience, but nothing that really can help you to get a better life each forthcoming day. You should be tought to cook, to get the condiments and to find the markets to get the food to be cooked. With that knowledge you'd be able to cook for yourself things closer to that delicious meal, or even better if you can do it completely adapted to your own taste, but without the basics, you can do very little. How could one learn the basics of "true music through audio"?

Regards,

Antonio
03-13-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 749
Reply to: 748
Su-su-surrealistic audio?

amlodipin

amlodipin 5 mg website

 Antonio J. wrote:
But having some ideas of the sonic attributes that accomplish that "feeling" would be very helpful. So you couldn't help that someone listening to such a system wanted to build a clone of it.

I do not think it is possible, even conceptually. Sure there are many people out there who would suggest that audio-success” and audio help come form the specific precompiled, encapsulated, binary solution – would it be amplifier, speaker of any other wrapable and UPS deliverable subjects. I very much disagree with this vision. Pretend that I have a wonderfully performing item of audio and you learned about it and decided to replicate it (buy it). I have seen many and many times within countless installations when being plugged into differed user consciousness the item might not perform well. Certainly there are no problems with equipment compliance (this all could be easily taken care at kindergarten audio level). Why would it be so?

You see, there are such things as listen Sound, hear Sound and understood Sound. The performance of specific devises sometimes require a certain state of a listener readiness, sort of synergy between the component ability and the listener capacity to embrace those abilities. Pay attention that I brought very-very simplified example but in real life the satiations way more complex and in many instances it take years for a person to figure the things out, many never do. Thus you would see very frequently a situation, when an average audiophile exposed to a new for him/her playback that was not bult according to the primitive concepts of sounds reproduction and that transitionally evolved. In that satiation the audiophile juts do not understand what is going on with system and with him/her. However, and this is the ketch, when the playback is at a state of completion and was evaluated and “certified” as “reedy to go” then actually no preparation, even internal, is require. So, the cloning in audio, and particularly while audio in a transitional stage is as useful as performing lobotomy…
 Antonio J. wrote:
Undoubtedly you're right, this would be just an exposition to "what can be done" and it would work for people with the same kind of background, interests and goals of the person setting up the SPD. If that system is setup for the best possible reproduction of recorded symphonic music and the eventual listener also wants to listen to huge choral works, perhaps it wouldn't work as good for him. This person should get his system to optimize his experience with the kind of music he wants to listen to.

Not really, at a final version all chickens come rust and all rules, laws, prejudges and misbelieves come to the very much same common denominator.  Interesting that this common denominator is absolutely do not violate and do not conflict with preferences, inclinations and subjectivism of each individual…. This is kind of a separate and very big topic and I would not dive into it at this point.

 Antonio J. wrote:
The problem as I see it is that building these kind of "Ultrasystems" requires an inner growth and acquiring some skills and knowledge that in these times we're living people is not ready to spend on them.

Absolutely, and people who when far enough in their growth understand that those systems are not really necessary.
 Antonio J. wrote:
All they want is "plug and play", they want the results and don't want the hard work behind the results, which are so personal and self conditioned that aren't transferrable from one person to another. There are some very basic principles which can be tought, but little else. It's something comparable to learning to play a musical instrument, you can learn the fingers postions and movements, you can learn to read music, but nobody will ever teach you to feel what you're playing and how to transfer your own emotions, intentions and essence into what you're playing, unless you go into formulaic tricks.

Well, I do not know any “basic principles” that work. There are a lot of completely dead pianists with very properly positioned fingers and there are many audio people who can read lectures and write books about audio but who familiar only with extremity crapy audio results. You did suggested that no one would teach you to feel what you're playing. Why do you think that a process of shaping of sound in your listening room is less imaginative then any other creative activity? I personally visualize a person who makes sound in a listing room as a contactor of orchestra who is responsible for the results, of course using very different expressive tools.

 Antonio J. wrote:
Being exposed to a SPD would be interesting, but as you see it and I understand it should be, it might produce more distress and frustration than being as blind as most of us are now. It would be as frustrating as exposing a person eating survival pre-cooked food all his life to a delicious meal with belluga, the finest sirloin, cakes and wines you can find on Earth, cooked by the best cook, and after that leaving him back again to his survival food. Just a nice experience, but nothing that really can help you to get a better life each forthcoming day. You should be tought to cook, to get the condiments and to find the markets to get the food to be cooked. With that knowledge you'd be able to cook for yourself things closer to that delicious meal, or even better if you can do it completely adapted to your own taste, but without the basics, you can do very little. How could one learn the basics of "true music through audio"?

I do not think that it would produce “distress and frustration”. The distress and frustration are produced when a person pays $40K for TT, $95K for a loudspeaker, $10K for a cartridge, 120K for cables and $50K for amplifier, spending years to pursue all this BS and in the end up, s/he end up with bad sound and with compile luck of understanding why it happened. The exposure to SPD would set a feeling of what is possible and would embed into audiophile awareness a reference points: what might be done.

You see, when we talk with audio people they manipulate definitions the have no values. They, for instance, all talk about bass but none of them (or very few) even heard a properly reproduced bass. If you let to a person once to hear “live” sounding bass by means of sound reproduction then it is really revolutionary experience. I have seen people who after being exposed to proper bass completely and very radically changed this tastes about music. How much dose IT worth? It’s not juts about bass - I simplified it.  Music, if it properly perceived has a huge educational and personality-shaping effect. An ability to invoke voluntary those “personality-shaping moments” at a level when a personality could actually be affected is a very freaky feeling. Do not forget that a lucky person could within his lifetime catch very few great and really impactfull, personality-shaping performances. With SPD, when you can flip those performances by an allegorical “punch of button” you reach a totally different level of “event management”… The habitual audiophile people are accustomed to fight with thier audio or in many instances juts suffer form it. But it could be very different. The purpose of SPD might be to demonstrate that another approach of relationship with own audio is very possible…

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-13-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 750
Reply to: 749
Kind of contradictory

generico cialis 20 mg

acquistare cialis online

On one hand we have that "evolved music reproduction" is something that one achieves as an act of inner growth and by having established some goals or intentions which if resolved, can offer a different musical reproduction from the commercial audiophile systems can. But on the other hand we have that some things, like correctly reproduced bass, or a correct stage integration, and probably many conceptual audio features which might be explained and be even measurable, help to obtain that kind of excellence. If this is true, then there should be some basic principles to help anyone interested to get the desired results. Of course the exposition to "correct music" is necessary to understand and define the goals, but also those things should be explainable.

Regards,

AJ

03-13-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 7
Post ID: 751
Reply to: 750
I see no contradiction at all.

acquistare cialis in farmacia

pillola cialis effetti sunilrav.com
A definition of “correctly reproduced bass” does not exist as is. The “correctly reproduced bass” is a bass that initiate that “an act of inner growth” and there is no other definition or methods to identify the “correctness” of that bass. The same is with the “correct stage integration”. The stage itself is a property of pure audio fiction but if a perception is properly structured then the same primitive audio-soundstage might be a phenomenal expressive tool. . I mean all those things are hugely interrelated and they should be “consumed” all together. Perhaps you are correct and it should be some shortcuts and “basic principles to help anyone interested” but I do not know about any. Also, I’m not a person who would build those “Stressed Playback Demonstration” rooms. I would pay to go there though....

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-13-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 752
Reply to: 751
LOL

lamictal pregnancy registry results

lamictal and pregnancy folic acid redirect
What a pity, I hoped you had one of those SPD rooms at home ;-)

I still think that some things could be explainable, but I guess it would be as explaining a blind person how different is a good photo of a nude woman from having that real woman in front of you, or having a 3D picture of her. Quite complicated.

Regards,

AJ
03-13-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul Scearce
Posts 12
Joined on 07-26-2004

Post #: 9
Post ID: 753
Reply to: 745
Re: Revealing Quality

strattera generic price

generic strattera price lasertech.com
My system is at a point that even hearing a system that does some things well stimulates me to improve the sound of my own system. I think one of the biggest challenges I face with audio is that of erroneous preconcieved notions of how it should sound. I feel that hearing a "better" system helps to break down some of those notions.

In his book, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainence", Robert Prisig wrote about Quality. He wrote about his pursuit of understanding what it is, and some of the things he felt nessecary to pursue quality itself. The pursuit of quality seems to involve being truly connected with what you are doing, and letting go of what you think you know about something, so you can observe what is really there. He mentioned that this is a skill that is difficult to pursue in just one area. It requires practice, and works best if you can apply it to everything you do.

He also mentioned the difference between quality and style. Style is much more superficial and easily noticed. I think style, not quality is the pursit of most manufacturers, and partially explains the bizarre situation of audio (among other things.) I think quality takes more time to develop and to be noticed, and doesn't generate a lot of sales.

I agree that a "Crucial playback" could be a very powerful tool for listeners, if it is approached with an open mind. I think with the same openness of mind, a listener can glean some useful information from a less than perfect playback as well.

Paul
Page 1 of 1 (9 items) Select Pages: 
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  What constitutes a great audio performance…..  What constitutes a great audio performance…...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  7796  05-20-2008
  »  New  The Absolute Sound of Audio Idiocy...  Different ways of listening...  Playback Listening  Forum     13  64640  08-06-2008
  »  New  About the Playbacks’ Thinkability...  The right stuff...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  28135  01-30-2009
  »  New  What I am doing?..  What am I (Axel) doing?...  Playback Listening  Forum     15  67444  05-12-2009
Home Page  |  Last 24Hours  | Search  |  SiteMap  | Questions or Problems | Copyright Note
The content of all messages within the Forums Copyright © by authors of the posts