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  »  New  How to train respect audio listening?..  Punctum saliens...  Playback Listening  Forum     18  78874  08-22-2013
05-16-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1
Post ID: 19360
Reply to: 19360
How would you handle it?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Amy and I were listening last night Bruckner 8, the last one recorded in 1988. It is fine performance but very much vandalized by DG technicians with truly horrible sound. Amy does not knowledge all those audio sonic aspects. For the 1.5 years that we together I did not make any efforts to educate her about the way how audio methods can ruin musicality, not to mention to interpret it. We have wonderful time to listen music together and the subject of audio quality is absolutely out of our ways. It is very interning to think with her about music. In fact I hid it superbly arousing. At the very first date I told her that her face and her manners remind me the opening bars Brahms Thirds, the thirds movement. I lived my life and dated plenty women but I never was able to experience as much pleasure and to see the woman understanding and appreciating of my compliment. I did in past tell to women that they are associated to me with different fragment of music and they were sitting and flipping with their brainless eyes indicating no cognitive activity. Last night she was playing her quartets and I went with her bring a bottle of wonderful Georgian wine with me. I ask her: “Kitty, what note this wine taste like?” She immediately replied: “B Flat”. What is brilliant and tasteful mind!

Anyhow, here is what I’m thinking. I have no problem to explain and to demonstrate to Amy the ways how audio very frequently ruins musicality.   Last night I asked her if she would like me to do it. She responded very interesting: “I am not sure that I would like to learn it as I am afraid that it will start bothering me.”

So, my questing is to the guys who had found themselves in the similar satiation. Do you feel that it worth to educate our wife with the basics of audio listening or it make send to let it go. The smart people always ask: ”Do you want to be right or happy?”. From one perspective it does make sense to make her to understand the subject as… it is truth. However, she does not suffer from a need to know this “truth”.  I am conflicting with it. It would be fun to have her as audio collaborator and she will be very fine but I fell that it is poorly subject of my egotism and why shall I diminish her listening enjoyment juts because I would like to have near me somebody who help me to detect juts by hearing that my driver tubes lost cathode emission?
So, folks, tell share you stories and objections on the subject, partially those who have been living with your moment/man for long time.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-16-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006
Post #: 2
Post ID: 19361
Reply to: 19360
Red pill blue pill
fiogf49gjkf0d
If she elects to take the red pill, you should prepare yourself for marriage: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhlXqYiTz2Q (36 seconds)

 jd*

How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
05-16-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zztop7
Edmonds, WA
Posts 40
Joined on 11-02-2012
Post #: 3
Post ID: 19362
Reply to: 19360
Ignorance is bliss
fiogf49gjkf0d
 “I am not sure that I would like to learn it as I am afraid that it will start bothering me.” 
Roman, I see that she has accurately answered your question - her statement above. The saying "men are from Mars, women are from Venus" is accurate.  It is very difficult at times for the male to properly listen to & understand women [many times impossible].  It makes sense to "let it go", and that is safe.  In fact in the back of your mind you might silently say the movie line: "is it safe, is it safe". There are other aspects to this: Why not let Roman do all the work / I rather just listen to the great music; I do not want to have to work on it because then I will not enjoy it [please excuse me Amy; I might be writing false words for you]. Respectfully, zz
05-16-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JJ Triode
Posts 99
Joined on 09-12-2007
Post #: 4
Post ID: 19363
Reply to: 19360
Teachable moments
fiogf49gjkf0d
I would side with zz:  make no systematic efforts to educate Amy about the audio aspects of listening.  Later, when (for example) hearing a particularly fine recording, she might become interested in what is different or why it is different from a "vandalized" recording.  Then it might be an opportunity for some illustrative demonstrations and conversation.  You might then even be able to explore with her how you came to feel this is all so important to you, since Sound is a big part of your life, and so part of the "territory" she has accepted.  But it would be better, I think, not to try to change Amy's listening activity in any intentional way.

By way of my own experience, my wife grew up around hifi (her father was a music reviewer for a while, but not an audiophile) and appreciates my installation, even notices some changes and improvements when they happen, but does not pay any attention to the technology or require good sound quality at all times.  It is similar with my teenage son.  I think they are just "normal," like Amy.
05-16-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 5
Post ID: 19364
Reply to: 19360
The gift of naiveté
fiogf49gjkf0d
My personal take (also with my wife who I have been with for 33 years) is that they learn enough by exposure and are much more valuable when remaining simple "users". It is often not possible to be objective when you are enjoying a low noise floor or distracted by bad electricity - a simple comment from your spouse about the "music" being played can be more educational for us than recognizing what 75% humidity has done to the resonance of our midrange driver.

The people that count KNOW what we can offer and will never hesitate to ask when their curiosity is high enough.

I think that the danger is that our agenda does more to feed our egos than increase their real interest in nuts and bolts. My wife has a deep bass and piano allergy. That opens real opportunities to be alone when I want to.........

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
05-16-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010
Post #: 6
Post ID: 19365
Reply to: 19364
My story with wine
fiogf49gjkf0d

I always enjoyed wine, but had no real taste or knowledge and didnt want to know much,  I dont need an extra expense, Audio takes most of my budget already!  But it happened, most of my friends are a lot into wine, so after a lot of dinners with nice wine, a few wine tastings and trips to wine country I started noticing the difference.  Today when I have a good wine I enjoy it enomoursly, when I didnt know much and had no experience with it I could have the best wine and would not really enjoy it.   The down side is that the crappy wine I used to enjoy doesnt taste that good anymore!

My point is: Once you know how to enjoy nice wine it can bring a lot of enjoyment I would be missing otherwise.

If I lived in the house of one of the best wine makers I would be drunk all the time!


Now if she doesnt want to drink the wine.....
05-17-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
scooter
Posts 161
Joined on 07-17-2008
Post #: 7
Post ID: 19366
Reply to: 19365
Who is the student?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Interesting question. A few biased observations:
- After months of listening to your system has she autonomously developed an interest in learning more about it? 
- Are you interested in learning to play an instrument? If so, would you like Amy to teach you? Why or why not?
- Could learning the technical ins and outs of audio spoil the experience for both of you going forward?
- Will playing music professionally and "practicing audio" at home distract her from sitting back and enjoying listening sessions?
- Is it good to have separate but related hobbies?
I won't offer advice but if I were in your shoes, I would also be hesitant. Once the "cat is out of the bag," can you return to the current status quo? 
Should you continue the status quo or continue evolving the relationship?
 She knows music well from a completely different background. Maybe instead of "teaching" her the technical practice of audio, think of how you can leverage her experience and interests relating to the output of sound (eg the final sound performance of the system rather than the technical details). Where to draw that line is difficult to say. 
In the end, she brings a lot to the table on the music front. You need to think how can you tap that passion, interest, experience. Turn the tables- maybe this is not about teaching Amy about audio but about her helping to bring the family system to the next level. I can't help there unfortunately.  
As an obvious start, Socratic questions are a good way to make significant progress in complex topics vs. just teaching stuff. 
05-23-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 8
Post ID: 19376
Reply to: 19360
In search of the structure.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Interesting. Almost unanimously the people at the forum and in private emails advice me do not inform/educate Amy about the audio.  I do share the hesitance people expressed and I do appreciate the warnings. I kind of inclined do not do it, well; I did not do it for 1.5 years not without the reason but there is another subtest in this.

I very much value in relationship when I am understood, when a recipient of my actions/words not just consume my appeared facade but understand the deeper-seated reasoning, objectives and motivations.  Kitty is getting exceptionally good with it and I feel incredibly grateful that I am able to communicate with her at this level. I had a few male friends who were able to do it but I had very few females enabled for this. Of cause I do not look forward to collaborate with Kitty about differences in cartridges sound or best operation points for 6E6P. However, I do find that it would be very nice if she tangibly understands, even hypothetically what I am doing.  I do not intend to illustrate to her various specifics of audio – she has enough knowledge in her plate and she does not need this crap. But it would be nice to have her to understand my action and interests. If I would be able to define where is that fine line between critical listening that diminishes listening experience and something that give a general understanding of own audio listening paradigms then I would not mind to make a few well structured education session with her.

I think that the key in all of it is the degree and angle of her education and setting up the proper accents. I would like to find a form of the education that would not hurt her. I do not have this format yet and I keep thinking about it for a while.

I do agree that this is slightly about my egotistic desire to have a wife who full understand and support what I do. Amy very much supports what I do anyhow but I would like her to do it for right reasons.  It is one thing to see support because she loves me and glad that I am happy with my Bruckner and my tubes but it is another thing when she understands what I do. I do not know why but it feels exceptionally pleasurable for me. Perhaps in me is talking a naiveté of a person who is involved in young relationship. I readily admit it. Still, if I do succeed in my slightly egotistic mission then the benefits would be wonderful.  I think all that I need to do it devise some kind failure-proof, check-and-balance plan that would assure the none-wound education for Amy. I keep thinking about it.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-24-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 9
Post ID: 19381
Reply to: 19376
Will Power vs. Want Power
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, from the anicdotes peppering this forum, it sounds like you have "done your homework" prior to choosing someone to share your life with, and you have done this at a time when you, at least, have already acquired some life experience.  No doubt you have a pretty good handle on the amount of "information" you can apply to Amy without getting equal and opposite reactions.  In my own case, my wife still shows no interest in hi-fi after 45 years.  When I mention things hi-fi she never "rises to the bait", and I do not use a net, nor traps, either.  I suppose that it might be much easier if we shared music in common, but even if we did I would not put a strain on what we have to try to get more.  If you plan to be together with Amy a long time, then you can at least move slowly, staying alert for and not over-reacting to actual signs of interest on her part.

Best regards,
Paul S
06-02-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 10
Post ID: 19424
Reply to: 19360
Living with a musician
fiogf49gjkf0d
My wife is a musician. She plays the trumpet in a small symphony orchestra,in a traditional brass band, and numerous small gigs around town. She has a lovely CD out and drove the first "tone-deaf" engineer insane while making it. Ultimately she was unhappy with the sound and went to another studio that was amazing for the low watt tubes systems, gold wiring, and horn speakers. It came out quite well. But I digress.

Anyway, the question was whether to expose someone who is a music lover to the horror of audio. While every case is different, it sounds like she may not really care. This was the case for my wife. I explained everything I was doing in my system and why and so forth. I switched out different recordings and different pressings of records for her. She could absolutely tell precisely the changes made. Her level of audio discernment was incredibly refined. She always knew when some change had been made or even if the electricity was a bit off that day. Her sense of aural perception is pretty amazing, maybe in part because she is a musician. But for the most part, it doesn't bother her. Her threshold for what is acceptable audio-wise is "not too picky." She can tell, but she is fine listening on any old CD player. What is much more important to her is the composition and performance of the pieces.

I remember one time we were listening to a live performance of Beethoven's Symphony No. 7. We got to the 2nd movement, which is one of my favorites, and I was happily enjoying it when I saw her cringing. I asked her what was wrong, and she told me: that second trumpet player over there, the horn is not warmed up properly and so he is having to scoop all the notes to keep in tune. It is driving me crazy!

So, she had added on a whole other layer of complexity. I might be obsessed with the audio, but she has her own things she obsesses about, too! While I could understand her concerns, it did not change me from enjoying the piece. Likewise, she can easily understand my audio concerns, but it doesn't stop her from enjoying the performance. Because of this mutual sharing, we have more respect for each other and we enjoy different layers of music in different ways, complementarily. This is what led to her asking me to step in and help her find a new studio and new engineer to finish her CD. Oh, it came back around anyway. How about that.

So, I do not think it would be a bad thing, necessarily. Of course, everyone is different.

Adrian
06-04-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zztop7
Edmonds, WA
Posts 40
Joined on 11-02-2012
Post #: 11
Post ID: 19437
Reply to: 19360
It's not about the nail
fiogf49gjkf0d
First, I would like to give credit to "audioguy" who posted this video on the whatsbestforum.com site.
I will try to post the link, and/or you can go to youtube and put in:   It's Not About The Nail   by   Jason Headley.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg
The best time I have spent in less than 2 minutes in years.
Best to all,zz.
07-22-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013
Post #: 12
Post ID: 19723
Reply to: 19437
Wine and audio
fiogf49gjkf0d
Wine is very much like audio, as a matter of fact. I was a wine merchant for 10 years before my present occupation; when I started, I enjoyed wine a great deal and typically spent $30ish per bottle, occasionally ramping it up a little for special occasions. 10 years down the road I found myself an MW, for whom pretty much everything sub-$500 tasted like utterly unspeakable filth aside, of course, from such Mosel and Alsatian Rieslings as entirely alienate just about everyone else due to their incomprehensible labeling and classification. It seems as if when one becomes beholden to any hobby or interest, the human tendency is to seek out ever more rarefied and hard to attain strata, forgetting that if one was ever able to derive pleasure from that $30 bottle/Bang & Olufsen stereo/$100 pair of shoes etc, then one should still be able to, even if one is aware of the existence of higher pleasures. That said, I've never had a dreadful $500 bottle of wine - at the very least it will be rich, extracted and correctly made, for otherwise the market would not for long bear it - yet there are plenty of awful $10000+ up audio components out there. Why the audio market not only supports, but seems to actively encourage this disparity is beyond me; when it is so obviously in everyone's interest but the consumer, that the consumer does not revolt is surprising.

de Charlus

PS Following a long and sweaty period of rehabilitation, I am no longer a wine elitist and can once more enjoy $30 Chilean Cabernet Sauvignon - life's good.
07-22-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 13
Post ID: 19724
Reply to: 19723
Value
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, de Charlus, it's one thing to pay the going rate for excellence if one can afford it. It is another thing entirely to simply jump on a bandwagon (or corner the bandwagon market) because one can afford it.  Wine or audio (or bespoke shoes, for that matter), there will always be people with more money than taste, and this in itself becomes a driver for a certain part of any given "market" that is quite attuned to the dynamics of this phenomenon. Too damn bad, on the one hand; I may never get to enjoy La Tache again. OTOH, I occasionally derive a certain grim satisfaction when people throw ridiculous sums at things they want for "the wrong reasons". 

Taking your point directly for a moment, it does seem on the face of it that winemakers self-regulate better than audio "manufacturers".  But I wonder if this has anything to do with Robert Parker and Allen Meadows, vs. Michael Fremer, JonaTin, et al.

Best regards,
Paul S
07-22-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013
Post #: 14
Post ID: 19725
Reply to: 19724
Parker, Fremer and other evils...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Value can exist at pretty much any price, yes. I should certainly have qualified all that with a "before Robert Parker came along", shouldn't I? He of course brings an added absurdity that hasn't (yet) infected audio reviewers, which is that damnable percentage system of his; additionally, wines are now being made wholesale in the "Parker style", winemakers being motivated primarily by getting a Parker 95+ than making the best possible expression of their unique terroir. Vineyards that could produce elegant, graceful, fragrant Pinot Noir in the Chambolle-Musigny style are instead all made in that jammy, intensely extracted, inky-thick reverse-osmosis style just to please the man, the worst thing of all about it being the uniformity that it brings to New World wine, all but annihilating regional distinction. Just like audio reviewers and their adjectives, he flings his 100s around rather too liberally too; there's just no way that a veritable army of identikit Sonoma Cabernets are as good as Cheval-Blanc '82, Petrus '90 or Romanee-Conti '85,  a fact that the market recognizes, even if Mr. Parker doesn't. There are misguided fools the world over cellaring Parker 100s with little aging potential in the belief that they'll mature and appreciate like the classics - I suppose that there's a certain grim satisfaction to be derived from that, just as one can snigger into one's sleeve at over-moneyed idiots rushing out to buy the latest monstrosity from Boulder, Spectral, Magico et al. For some reason I find cynical audio makers and the whole review rigmarole that they support/supports them much more annoying than the winemakers whom in many cases have little choice but to Parkerize their wines; after all, if yours is a vineyard new to the market, you're pretty much doomed if you don't, whilst I don't believe the same to be true of audio. After all, when did you last see a truly bad audio review? Everything's just great, right, no matter how crap? Perhaps this is because there's no single figure with the influence of Parker dictating people's taste for them, the influence being spread around a little more, even if they do all agree with each other.

I do hope you get a little more La Tache; life's infinitely better with DRC in it....

de Charlus
07-22-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 15
Post ID: 19726
Reply to: 19725
Thank God for Volnay (and a certain un-named Peer)
fiogf49gjkf0d

Yes, too true about the proliferation of over-stuffed wine-bots.  At least Parker is pretty consistent in terms of his descriptors and his personal preferences, and if he is directly on the take, I have yet to see/hear any such evidence.  This has actually enabled me to "read through" his evaluations and get a fair idea of what he's talking about, along with how this relates to my own - personal -  preferences. Harking back, I was also +/-  on these terms with the late Gordon Holt, in the early going. Would that it were so simple/easy with the audio reviewers today.  This lot seems only bound to sell elaborate kit at inflated prices, and little else.  At least Parker never directly conflates price > quality!  Re: Allen Meadows, you might want to give him a read, since he does what Parker cannot for our beloved PN.

Best regards,
Paul S
07-22-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013
Post #: 16
Post ID: 19727
Reply to: 19726
Volnay indeed....
fiogf49gjkf0d
Volnay indeed. Dom. de la Pousse d'Or remains one of the few bargains in high-end Burgundy, almost a contradiction in terms - I've had many happy evenings with Pousse d'Or 1er crus, they and Comte Armand. One can indeed read through Parker, but most lack the expertise and/or experience, and I feel that an entire generation of palates is being schooled in over-wooded, over-extracted, blowsy, sugary wines lacking in finesse and any genuine expression of terroir. Terroir, after all, is not exclusive to the Old World, but exists everywhere; Parker and co. are seeing to it that the terroirs of these newer regions never find their true expression, although I agree with you that Parker is a slave of his own unsophisticated tastes, and not actively corrupt. The consequences are, however, the same in the case of wine and audio; Parker and the audio cabal have an entirely inappropriate influence over the tastes of the unsophisticated and thus, the direction of entire industries. That said, if someone with Parker-level influence and a love of genuinely high-end audio were to come along, perhaps we wouldn't be quite so annoyed about it!

de Charlus
07-22-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 17
Post ID: 19728
Reply to: 19727
Audio Sommelier
fiogf49gjkf0d
Just to show we were paying attention and NOT digressing OT:

Perhaps, then, Romy should take on the role of Amy's audio sommelier?  Sure, Amy knows music; but Romy knows music via hi-fi. He can cater to her tastes in a way that surprises and delights her, personally, like the best sommeliers always please one with excellent values and special finds.  Romy, if you love her, then you must send her somewhere that she's never been before.


With apologies to Mama Cass (RIP),
Paul S
07-22-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 18
Post ID: 19729
Reply to: 19728
Paul, is it what you have in mind?
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Paul S wrote:
Romy, if you love her, then you must send her somewhere that she's never been before.

sexy_speaker.jpg



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-22-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 19
Post ID: 19730
Reply to: 19729
Shades of Paris in the 20's
fiogf49gjkf0d
Uncanny!!!  Obviously, you are reading my mind!!!


Paul S
07-23-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013
Post #: 20
Post ID: 19731
Reply to: 19730
Very amusing
fiogf49gjkf0d
Ha! Looks like the next Silbatone...
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