twogoodears wrote:

I re-read an half-page chapter in French from Jean Hiraga's "Les Hautparleur" essay, concerning time-alignement and phase... in this quite misconsidered and often unconcerned parameter, I more and more carefully weighted Hiraga's words, where he says that in horns time-alignement you, I simplify to be better understood, you must go "fractal" - i.e. 1/2 inch plus a salt grain;-) because it's not simply a matter of phisically aligning the diaphragms of, say, tweeter, mid and woofer, but "finding" the "fractal" point where you hear the best, most natural sound in yr. VERY system.

I did not read this article (I can’t not read French) but if it was what you described then I disagree with what  Jean Hiraga stated. There is nothing in proper aligning none-physically or mysterious that would require any “finding the fractal point by ears”. You might find alignment by ears or you ming find alignment by measurement (many techniques are available) but I did not see any single instance where the measurable and the auditable time alignment crated any contradiction (of cause if one knows what to listen for). Jean Hiraga suppose to be good a engineer and it should not be foe him an issues to measure the time arrival. Why he feels that anything else should be invented and why he feels that “most natural sound” should be introduced to the very simple subject of time arrival is beyond me. Particularly if the cases where the channels are aligned do result “hear the best and the most natural sound” in 100% of all cases.  Perhaps Mr. Hiraga is trying to listen for wrong things?

twogoodears wrote:

I only recently began to move drivers and horns and, while only some weeks ago, I was positioning speakers/ways in an aesthetically/functional (due to weight and bulkiness) way - like 98 percent of people worldwide using these speakers, now I almost only use ears... now I feel as I did "before" like audio shops owners back in '70s when they applied their coolness with those silly "waves" on equalizers on the shelves to impress young audio lovers!!!

Welcome to the state of the lost virginity. In fact the expresses of the 98 percent of people worldwide are irrelevant as if you know how time-misaligned sound horns then you would automatically discard whatever the 98% of morons out there do or say. BTW, I do not think that the alignment “only by ear” is right way to do the thing. You need to really know what you do and have a LOT of experience to play with alignment in order to do so. Still, you will get much better result with simple measurement, confirming the correctness of alignment by ears.

twogoodears wrote:

The actual "best sound" from my system appears wrong on the paper...

I have difficulty to visualize it. Care to post a picture?

Romy the Cat wrote:

Welcome to the state of the lost virginity. In fact the expresses of the 98 percent of people worldwide are irrelevant as if you know how time-misaligned sound horns then you would automatically discard whatever the 98% of morons out there do or say. BTW, I do not think that the alignment “only by ear” is right way to do the thing. You need to really know what you do and have a LOT of experience to play with alignment in order to do so. Still, you will get much better result with simple measurement, confirming the correctness of alignment by ears The Cat

Stefano.

I think you are confusing two things - moving channels and time alignment. Moving channels changes the relation between channels and room. It is powerful and expressive tool. Time alignment is the unanimous arriving of wave front to ears of listener. The time alignment is not the expressive, creative or artistic tool – it is an absolutely mandatory from my view minimum without which any further attempts should not be even considered. I have a lot talk about time alignment at my site…

I would jumps off the subject of time alignment in thread as it is kind of GOTO thread… and the GOTO manufacture and GOTO users do not believe in time-aliment. The idiotic position that GOTO has about the time-aliment is one of the major reasons why I never considered the GOTO drivers seriously for myself.

Keith,

I do not see any “O, shit!” effect.  You went for 505TT/S150 combination and it is fine. Why after reading my comments you developed doubts? It looks to me that if you do have doubts then you did not have enough rational to select this specific driver and this specific horn to begin with.

I see nothing wrong what you do. There is no such a thing as “ideal horn should be”. A proper loading of a given driver to a horn is derivate of many factors, the design objective of you particular installation and the type of sound you would like to get are not very last reasoning. The 505 driver is specified as 200Hz but only God know what and how it does in really at which power. The 150B horn is 150Hz horn. In Tractrix world it would do let say 250-300Hz of minimum loading but it would greatly depend of the driver used. Increase the cone mass and you can do whatever you want – even load 150Hz. I have no idea what Goto do and how it works with their drivers. It is not to mention that they use parabolic horn that has more but different bass at the lower knee.

So, there is nothing wrong in what you do.  You pay money to Goto and alone with it you get from them their expertise in design objective and principles. If you do not have your own objective and principles then it is perfectly fine to be dependent upon the company’s doctrine. There is no reason for you at this point to be “worried” about anything. Get your order, set it up and then see how it all work out.   Always remember the following:

http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=432

If you would like to share you observations  about the sound after you get your Goto setup then feel free to post it, picture are also encouraged.

Kcct82 wrote:

There aren't a lot of ready made options for 200-800hz so I chose Goto thinking "oh they are so expensive they must know what they are doing."

Yep, there in not a lot of our there in horn universe that care the “primary frequency range” properly. Let see what Goto does.  BTW, my complain about the GOTO disassociation between the back chamber and the horn rate was about the Goto bass compression drivers.

You might also read the following threads:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=1414#1414

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=804#804

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=2991#2991

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=862#862

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=4421#4421

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=2553#2553

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=994#994

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=1517#1517

Keith,

Very good, thanks for the images. It would be very interning to learn what the bandwidth of the horns, the bandwidth of the drivers and the specificity of crossovers you eventually chose to use with each channel. It might take for you for a while to figure the things out but please when you feel comfortable with the results then post the information.

I would like to share some of my observations about the setup – you might find my comments worth to consider.

1)      Your tweeter and your MF channel need to be time aligned. You might raise the platform use you tweeter and slide it all the way back or you might flip the HF and MF channels and position the MF above, it might be too high though…  In the later configuration your deep-seated tweeter will be shoring is a narrow window, you might re to lie it 90 degree on its side, letting the slot to shot horizontally.

2)      I do not think that you will be able to time-alight the upper bass channel but you need to wave-align them. Make sure that upper bass and MF tit the top of the wave at the same time. the will be at the different periods and you will have same comb desertion but you will have still better result than if  MF and upperbass channels cancel each other.

3)      Extend your horns closer to the middle of the room. I would move them right to the edge of the carpet.

4)      Use horn winder. It looks like you have 5-6 feet on right and left that might be used. With setups like this and in the room like this you might be able to get not 30 degree angle but rather 60-70 degree angle between you and two speakers.

5)      Use the following sequence:

• a.       Properly crossover all your drivers and integrate  them in a way you find appropriate
• b.      Move back and force from your speakers and detect what is the minimum integration distance (Dmin)
• c.       Put your at 1.1-1.5 of Dmin and begin to move speakers wider pointing speakers to own solders.
• d.      Reach the point when the system just benign to lose center image.
• e.      From this pint move the speakers .5-1 feet back, closer to each other. This will be Wmax location.
• f.        At this location start to  tow-in and tow-out the speakers and pay attention what will do with center image
• g.       Find a configuration for tow-in what the frequency response and center image will be OK.
• h.      Redo it a few times altering the Wmax lotion, true to spread spikes wider.
• i.         From the new Wmax try to tow-in-out speakers but this time at very low angle trying curve side and middle image in order to make them to be in parabola with you are in the center. Prate that you are conductor and you need to potion your instilments in a way you needs hem to be. Proper recordings at this point are the mast.
• j.        Nail down and get reference from the preliminary results and start to finalize your crossover points and integration schemas
• k.        Repeat F to K paragraphs for your new refined integration schema
• l.          Get the reference  about the obtains sound (RefPointAbsolut)
• m.    Move your speakers to the distance (Dnew) you would like to use them. Repeat F to K paragraphs for the new distance and new width.
• n.       The negative delta in sound you might experience between RefPointAbsolut and RefPoint in  Dnew position is the contribution of your room. Start to work with the room
• o.      Make sure that during all those experiments the quality of electricity is not be a factor and the “ceremony” is spread in time.

6)      Make experiment with alignment of bass channel with upperbass vs. the alignment with MF. You might also try the “step alignment” (For instance upperbass is 3mS behind and bass is another 3mS behind) . It creates a “wavy delay” – sounds nice in some cases with bass.

7)      Flip your bass channel 180degree making port to “read” the floor.

Hi Keith,

That is an interesting way of setup the S150 horn.  Most of GOTO setup that I have seen set the S150 high and point down to listening position.  All of them crossover the S150 + SG505TT at 200Hz to 1kHz range.  I wish that I have your room size.  I can see the bass horn fit right in.  BTW - it seems that you know me from somewhere but I do not remember any past contact from you. Anyway, enjoy them and congra!
To share my current setup as attached.  As you can see, I am running out of room for all the drivers.  Cheers!

Well, many ways to try but not much room that I can move around.  I am happy with the sound and happy that I still have a listen room.  BTW - my seating position is 10 ft from the bass horn.  My room is only 22'x15'x9'.

twogoodears wrote:

Hi Keith and congratulations for your new babies... I'm truly jealous of your room size. Me too, as I previously wrote, assembled a VERY similar rig, vastly inferior to you welded supports, any, using the same approach: S-150, S-3000 and S-400, respectively mid-low/tweeter/mid-high. I fiddled for weeks, with several angles from extreme 110°, back to 30°, staying at about 70°... consider my listening room is ONLY about 25 square meters and I'm listening on the long side (see pix). The reason of my post is: yes, I took my time to toe in and out speakers, moving voices of some inches, trying to blend bass enclosure, flipping it 90°, playing with my Phonic gear to obtain a smooth emission fro each voice... BUT, all said and done at the threshold of my patience and interest for the thing, when I re-assembled the 4 ways in a more conventional way, I must admit... all my "new", "revolutionary" ideas in speakers positioning get tamed. It has been a quite entertaining, amusing, different audio adventure, but being at about 190 cm from the horns front, ears to horn-mouths, I'm sincerely enjoying a quite correct, musically involving, right in size and dynamics rendition... a sort of single speaker, a wide-band listening with much more air, details, trueness. Maybe, and I'm asking to Roman, am I too near to speakers to appreciate the full benefits of a different alignement (or whatever I experienced in the past weeks...)? With an horns mounting like Keith's I heard something not so cohesive, full-bodied... also details and center imaging were, in comparison to the actual rig, quite unfair to my ears, I can say now. I'm pretty sure that horns aren't only for large rooms: the best detail retrival I ever heard happened in my room and in another 20 sq. meters room... I recently measured with my (humble) Phonic PAA3 Audio Analyzer an SPL range between 40 and 98 dbV/A at listening position, with no pain at all, being able to chat with a friend without shouting. I'll sure won't stop experimenting, but that's what recently happened in my music room... maybe more traditional horns positioning someway "clicks" DPoLS-wise in my room, Roman? I don't feel me like I gave up in experimenting, BUT like I found a nice aequilibrium.

It is hard to me to comment at what you ask. It is like fishing fish. You can go to a beautiful mountain lake in go in a boat in open ocean. You can bring with you some sophisticated bate which was made with aim of the behavior of the specific fish you are targeting. You can bring good fishing equipment and to employ advanced fishing techniques that you might developed for years of fishing practice. You can study the fish manners and reflexes and you can make yourself to think like a fish if you wish. However, all you successes and erudition as a fisherman would greatly depend if you wish in the palace where the wish actually are. If instead of not-yet-polluted lake or open see you will go to fish in your local town’s sewer then no matter how good you as fishermen you will ketch nothing.

How that all relates to horns?

Well, horns are very problematic acoustic systems until they are implemented properly, too few people understand it.  One of absolutely mandatory attributes of proper horn implementation in my view is uncompromising and stubborn time alignment. To me to listen time-un-aligned horn is like fishing in that dirty sewer.  So, when I see picture, here comments or listen the time-un-aligned horn installation then people shell understand that I do not take it all very seriously.

You GOTO folks are in way hostages of GOTO’s systems foolishness. GOTO might do OK drivers but their ideas of system design is at the level of absolute idiocy. I do not know if it intentionally I do not think so. I think they just did not know better, I have some evidences of it looking at some steps they took, but I am not convinced, not do I care too mach…

Anyhow, all advanced techniques of shaping sophisticated image from playback are in my view available only in context of time-coherent system. To move, angle, tow-in, and fine time speakers where they the drivers are not time-align id like playing to better fishing line while fishing in Dupont’s waste sewerage...

I cannot say much for others but in my case, my listen room is fixed, either good or bad, larger or small.  There are only so many ways to fit all the audio stuffs into a space.  Of course, if the space is not an issue, time-aligned installation will be the only way to do.  But, in a real world, that is not often the case.  One has to live with lots of limitation, so time-aligned might have to be compromised and take a back seat.   The key and fun is how to get the best sound in YOUR room.  Yes, it might not be the best horn installation but will one rather listen to box speaker?  That apply to lots of GOTO owner.  There are few that can afford to build a building around a speaker system.  I have seen two cases in Japan that GOTO owner built the building to house the GOTO system.  I mean a building just for the GOTO bass horn and all the rest of audio stuffs.  Nothing to do with GOTO driver, nothing to do with not knowing to time align all drivers but just need to make peace with your listen room.

Romy the Cat wrote:

2)      I do not think that you will be able to time-alight the upper bass channel but you need to wave-align them. Make sure that upper bass and MF tit the top of the wave at the same time. the will be at the different periods and you will have same comb desertion but you will have still better result than if  MF and upperbass channels cancel each other. 4)      Use horn winders. It looks like you have 5-6 feet on right and left that might be used. With setups like this and in the room like this you might be able to get not 30 degree angle but rather 60-70 degree angle between you and two speakers. 6)      Make experiment with alignment of bass channel with upperbass vs. the alignment with MF. You might also try the “step alignment” (For instance upperbass is 3mS behind and bass is another 3mS behind) . It creates a “wavy delay” – sounds nice in some cases with bass. The Cat

MINGSU wrote:

Of course, if the space is not an issue, time-aligned installation will be the only way to do. But, in a real world, that is not often the case. One has to live with lots of limitation, so time-aligned might have to be compromised and take a back seat. The key and fun is how to get the best sound in YOUR room.

1)      Your tweeter and your MF channel need to be time aligned. You might raise the platform use you tweeter and slide it all the way back or you might flip the HF and MF channels and position the MF above, it might be too high though…  In the later configuration your deep-seated tweeter will be shoring is a narrow window, you might re to lie it 90 degree on its side, letting the slot to shot horizontally.

2)      I do not think that you will be able to time-alight the upper bass channel but you need to wave-align them. Make sure that upper bass and MF tit the top of the wave at the same time. the will be at the different periods and you will have same comb desertion but you will have still better result than if  MF and upperbass channels cancel each other.

I know you're not a big fan of digital delay, but I'm using behringer DCX 2496 to make things easier... this way I get to keep all horn mouths on the same plane which avoids some reflections (from other horn mouths).

3)      Extend your horns closer to the middle of the room. I would move them right to the edge of the carpet.

4)      Use horn winder. It looks like you have 5-6 feet on right and left that might be used. With setups like this and in the room like this you might be able to get not 30 degree angle but rather 60-70 degree angle between you and two speakers.

I don't know what the advantage would be, can you explain a little? Thanks

5)      Use the following sequence: