GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site - A further discussion of how much trouble you could get into

08-14-2007

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,656
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	21
Post ID:	5029
Reply to:	5026

Listening for differences

Hi, Bud
Now that my system is back up and running again I suppose I ought to at least take the offer to try the enabl'd drivers in my speakers.

I have no doubt they will sound different, and from the posts you cite I imagine some particular traits will come forward.

I am going to implement some room treatment, to check room/cancellation effects against the "gelatin ceiling" dynamics, but I am guessing at this point that the numbers don't lie with respect to power vs. efficiency vs. "The 18 dB Rule". I can say now that I can live with limits; but once a problem comes to my attention it is like an alergy. It's not articulation or "leading edges" I am thinking about, but I am thinking it is rather a matter of the limits of the topology.

I'm afraid (but not determined) that it's like a movie where you know the ending before it comes.

Best regards,
Paul

08-14-2007

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Bud
upper left crust united snakes
Posts 87
Joined on 07-07-2005

Post #:	22
Post ID:	5031
Reply to:	5029

A further discussion of how much trouble you could get into

Paul,

Actually they do not sound different. As shown in everyone's tests, those objective measures of performance do not change more than you might expect two different drivers of the same type, manufacturer and production run to sound. What changes are dynamics, the ability to play a greater spread of energy successfully, color retention, focus, or as some have stated, politeness, and low level signal coherence, more tiny information becomes available across the spectrum. But the sonic character remains that of a Lowther. It's just a couple of orders of magnitude more efficient at being a Lowther. The peaks are gone, because everything else is operating at that level, the shoutyness of a DX 4 is gone, because everything has that same dynamic capability and it is no longer different. The EnABL'd DX 4's will actually frighten you with their level of performance, because you have never experienced anything like this, except perhaps right in front of an Electro Voice pro sound reinforcement syetm you did not know was turned on, untiil it lept at you.

You will face issues in integration with your system. The drivers will out accelerate the ribbons, have far more information in the high frequency realm, because they no longer have a phase lag above 1 K and their dynamics will force you to have the woofers treated just to keep up. Without question, the most explosively unchained drivers I have ever treated, when all was completed. And I have succesfully treated more than 300 different drivers in my time with this process.

So, a casual borrowing of the drivers Limono has, after many hours of struggle, finally gotten integrated to his delight, is not going to offer you anything useful. It will take you at least two months to get on top of the extended dynamic performance. Then a while longer to get used to the oceans of information and dynamic head room available. Meanwhile Limmono will be without a sound system. And this after a strong effort to understand and direct what his DX 4's are doing.

I strongly reccomend that you contact Jon Ver Halen and ask him about his experiances with the EnABL'd drivers he has and his confidence in what the process brings to the reproduction of music. Just casually borrowing Limmono's drivers would not be a reccomendation I would make nor have much interest in supporting.

If you truely want more performance from your system, bite the bullet, pluck up your courage and treat your speakers, or pay me to do so, or remain with what you have, which you have said is as good as you have ever heard.

Bud

08-15-2007

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,656
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	23
Post ID:	5038
Reply to:	5031

Using a thermometer to guage system performance (ways and means)

Bud, you sure make a case for your process, all right. And the problems I have noted grew through the hot afternoon, eg, the power was certainly AFU.

Of course I am curious, and your very intelligent discourse about hypnotizes me.

At this point I am dying to say, "lipstick on a pig", just to break the tension; but as cute as that sounds it does not actually state my thoughts, and neither am I "done" with the Lowthers yet, in any case, just sizing them up.

If Yoshi is following, perhaps he would offer some thoughts, germane to the last few posts, on the Uber Lowther, ie, Frank Reps totally OCD version, because if the Lowther is The Way, then the Reps is The Means.

Yoshi, how about eNABL-ing those puppies?

Best regards,
Paul S

08-15-2007

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Bud
upper left crust united snakes
Posts 87
Joined on 07-07-2005

Post #:	24
Post ID:	5039
Reply to:	5038

All of the picture and pattern sheet posts

Romy is being very kind to me and not shouting at me for wasting everyone's time.

Paul, I really do not think that lipstick on a pig get's to the heart of the DX 4 transform. It's much more like a stick of dynamite hanging from the pigs lips and her asking for a light... If I could afford them, I would own a pair.

Here are the various picture and pattern treatment posts for all of the driver types done in this cycle.
Fostex 127 E
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1224615#post1224615

Lowther PM56A
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1256080#post1256080

Hemp FR 4.5 C
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1224615#post1224615

Lowther DX 4 and others
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1224615#post1224615
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1202564#post1202564
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1210730#post1210730

Yoshi, you should look through soongsc's tests of a Jordan JX92. He uses toothpaste to make the patterns with, on the metal cone. If you think about it a bit, quite a brilliant plan, if testing is what you are interested in.

Bud

08-15-2007

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	25
Post ID:	5040
Reply to:	5039

While the Lowthers is producing E major…

Bud wrote:
Romy is being very kind to me and not shouting at me for wasting everyone's time.

Actually you are wrong. I am not a big or even useful played in this thread. About the subject of the Lowthers everything which could be said has already been said and any anyone with ears knows what Lowthers are capable of. If you take my personal take on the subject than I think that your prospective treatment of the Lowthers with your patterns techniques might be the only interesting subject in this threat, at least for me. If your techniques do work than most likely the drivers with less mass should be more affective and the rice paper-made Lowthers should be good candidates to prove the concept.

Since, I know that you are far beyond proving the concept in the subject I do not know why the guys who have already are humiliated themselves with the Yellow Drivers are so worry: using the default Lowthers they have nothing to loose…

BTW, But, I think you need to get in touch with that Japan Christopher Witmer and to pitch him your patters. He socializes with of many of Japanese manufacturers who make their drives from toilet paper cones in order to play their favorite arias between a Buddhist monk and his well behaving mosquito. It might works very nice for them; also in Japan the culture loves the notion of doing the things with the Lowthers… In fact I know that the love paining the Lowthers, coking them in the different mineral oils and spraying the butterfly’s semen to the Lowthers while the Lowthers is producing E major. I think after that nuclear leak that Japans had a few weeks back they will sell to each other some made-for-Lowthers isotopes….

Rgs, Romy the Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

08-15-2007

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yoshi
Jefferson (MA), United States
Posts 69
Joined on 05-04-2005

Post #:	26
Post ID:	5041
Reply to:	5039

I'll give it a try

Recently, I added JBL 2220 for below 200 and replaced TOA DSP with Pioneer D-23 4way active crossover. The result is very positive, but there are still many issues I'd like to attend.

I'll be out of country early in September so that'll be a good time to send the drivers to Bud for the treatment.

Bud, would you let me know the cost, shipping address and the turn-out time? You can e-mail me directly (sakurastms@aol.com).

I took off the wizzer cone since I'm using it only 200~1000Hz, so it'll be easier than normal Lowther.

Yoshi

08-19-2007

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yoshi
Jefferson (MA), United States
Posts 69
Joined on 05-04-2005

Post #:	28
Post ID:	5054
Reply to:	5042

"Yellow"ness of Lowther

Romy dropped by yesterday. He goddamn demonstrated how "yellow" and compressed the Lowther (Reps-1, in my case) is, using my system, by simply playing other channels and the Lowther channal separately (mine is a 4way multi-amp set up, so it's very easy to do). I never tried to evaluate the sound by listening each channels separately because, (1) I never trusted my ear to be able to do that, (2) I had a certain fixation on Lowther (my system actually evolved around the Reps driver). In my system, Reps-1 covers 200~1000 in 3 cu/ft box, below 200 is JBL 2220 in an aperiodic cabinet, above 1000 is JBL 2450 with Edger tractrix (1000~10,000) and Pioneer RT-8T (10,000~), all with 12db slope.

While the combined 3 other channels breath more naturally with ups and downs of the dymanics of the music, the Reps channel is severely compressed with honky coloration. I'd been aware of some compression but always attributed it to the room (12' x 18') and the limited flexibility of the setting (I can only set it on the short wall end). I was never concsiously aware of the coloration although some feeling of strange warmth always lingered around. It's like the combined other channels play in 30db dynamic range with more natural tone (though monochromic withoud the mid range), while Reps operates within 5db with coloration of old sepia photograph!

My system had evolved to overcome the obvious shortcomings of the Reps driver, to eliminate the peak and the confused bottom end of the backloard horn cabinet, in short. Now, it ended up like peeling an onion (nothing left at the core)! Boo!!

08-19-2007

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,656
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	29
Post ID:	5055
Reply to:	5054

To coin a phrase

Buck up, Yoshi. I get what you are saying about "yellow", but this sort of de-construction excercise can be done with any driver.

For one thing, 3 cu. ft is way too big. If you must have a box, try 1/2 that size.

I think the Lowther [sic] trails off below 400 Hz without help, but I also think it is fine to well over 2k, sans whizzer.

Likely you have seen and/or heard Tommy Horning's big speakers. He does some interesting Lowther-based stuff that pretty well gets around some of the classic Lowther problems; however, he winds up with clearly audible cabinet colorations.

There are ALWAYS trade-offs.

Naturally, not everyone who hears the Reps thinks it is "better" than some other Lowthers, and naturally it is all system and situation dependent, and a matter of taste.

So what?

What is RIGHT with this driver?

Focus on/work with that, already.

Best regards,
Paul S

08-19-2007

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Bud
upper left crust united snakes
Posts 87
Joined on 07-07-2005

Post #:	30
Post ID:	5062
Reply to:	5055

How to scare you and your box.

Yoshi,

What material do you have as damping material in the box and how close is it to the Lowther? These things are incredibly transparent to what is behind them. Some things to consider.

If the damping material is within 3 inches of the cone, it will actually mass load the cone, even if it is just fiber fill. If it is rock wool or real wool, it should only be on the sides of the box, or, alternatively as a tube of material standing up in the box from top to bottom. The diameter of the tube is critical here, as is the density of material (now tightly you compress it as you roll it up).

Another approach is to find the store in the Boston area that sells automotive carpet undelayment padding. This is a man made mat, made from jillions of crinkled plastic and natural fbers with some rag also throughout. The stuff is incredibly linear and efficient. You can usually replace a 100% full fiber fill with four smaller than full panel sized pads, 3/4" thick, glued in place. I use 3M 99 spray contact adhesive for that. This store can be located by calling some of the local custom auto interior installation companies in your area. They may be more willing to sell you some than the wholesale company.

It will be interesting to see what the Lowther's become after September.

Bud

08-19-2007

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	31
Post ID:	5065
Reply to:	5054

To make that thing to sound better.

Yoshi,

I do not think you have to be so hard in your Lowther at this point, in fact if I m not mistaken, it was not a regular Lowther that rather some strange derivation from it. It did not sound right nether to me nor to you but I think the very first reason why it sound that way was not the limitation with the driver itself but the way in wish you use it. You cross it at 200Hz (I understand why) and you are severely overdriving it relative to other channels. I think before to blame the Lowthers it would worth to set it in appropriate operation conditions and then to see why happens. If you wish I might stop by with necessary tools, spend some time, make some measurements and adjustments and I am sure we will be able to make that thing to sound a lot of better. BTW, I could bring you some alternative drivers to try….

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

08-19-2007

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yoshi
Jefferson (MA), United States
Posts 69
Joined on 05-04-2005

Post #:	34
Post ID:	5070
Reply to:	5068

A baby thrown out with bath water?

Wojtek wrote:

It should not be a problem for you to borrow one of those plastic 150-200 Hz horns for your REPS .

I heard it a couple of times in a different settings several years ago. Although I was interested in the application at that time, never thought of using it myself due to the space limitations, and I was more or less happy with what I had.

Wojtek wrote:

I can imagine that other owners/users of Reps would be horryfied by the way you're using this driver .

I know!! I also know how other owners use Lowther type drivers too though. There's a historical (personal) context to how I came to what I have now. Mine started out as Lamhorn at around year 2000. I couldn't take the peak and ended up putting Reps in Medallion cabinet and replacing (adding) over 1000 with compression driver/horn-Ribbon tweeter combination using DSP. I heard pretty much all commercially available Lowther systems at that time, but never was satisfied with the way they were dealing with the peak. AER wasn't available yet then (if it was, my pass might have been slightly different). I was happy with this combination while my music was pretty much all jazz. Then everything begun to fell apart when I started listening to orchestral music. There was also an encounter with an unknown specie's super vehicle (Romy's system). I came to the current set up several months ago and have been working on it since then.

Paul, yes, I'm very familiar with Horning systems and, yes, the bass is quite discontinuous from the rest of the system. "What is RIGHT with this driver?" I'm afraid I threw out the baby with the bath water.

Yoshi

08-20-2007

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,656
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	35
Post ID:	5071
Reply to:	5070

Actually, you might still have the best of it.

Yoshi, I knew Frank Reps WAY back, in LA. I have talked with him in the last few years and know a little about his drivers, but I have never heard them.

It was my understanding that Frank used the AER cones, or he OEMs them from AER?

In any case, if the paper is as heavy as the Lowthers (eg, it is not too light) then you might use the thing in a small box from 200 up as high as 4k Hz, or at least you might use these numbers to kick off design/experimentation

If you just want to pursue the box idea, do try a much smaller box. I'm afraid I speak from experience when I say the big box doesn't get it with Lowthers; basically it serves no good purpose, and it well and truly jacks up the sound it does not eat below 400 Hz. I messed around with the smaller box when I was thinking 2-way, and it "works" much better because it better pitches the driver and also gives it a more realistic load. You only need wimpy batting on alternate inside cabinet faces, and likely no port.

FYI, and germane to de-construction, one of the worst speakers I ever heard (if not THE worst) was a 2-way Vitavox "theater" speaker with the old Vitavox horn! I mean, run for your lives!

Who would have guessed from that its current exhalted/unobtainable status?

And I can assure you that most of these venerated drivers still sound like crap!

Maybe your Reps will never match up with your other drivers as you have implemented them and the whole of them.

But I will be VERY surprised if you find dynamic drivers that better the Reps in every way.

BTW, I guess it's apropos that, according to Frank Reps, he sells his [then] $20k back-loaded, single driver horns mostly to well-heeled classical musicians and opera singers, eg, I've got the perfect vehicle for that 1705...

Best regards,
Paul S

08-27-2007

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	37
Post ID:	5134
Reply to:	3157

The alleged better sounding Lowther.

A visitor of this site reported an interning expense. He never was satisfied with Lowther and Lowther-like-centric inflations recently he come across to a loudspeakers that according to him sound absolutely different and he was VERY pleased with the results.

He cams to that Lowther–based speakers at some kind of DIY show and was mesmerized with the extremely interesting sound that come from the speaker. I personally do not believe him and I think that he was certifiably “high” but it is what it is.

He is what the speakers were looks like, interning that the drawing and the 3D image are different. It looks like the design as a play around the idea of 4th Order Bandpass and horn loaded port. I did not hear those speakers, it was built by some DIY guy from unknown Western state.

The caT

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

08-27-2007

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,656
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	39
Post ID:	5142
Reply to:	5138

It's all or nothing

Well, Yoshi, at least you're on your way to getting your speakers more of a piece.

I have for some time warned people against a mix-n-match approach with the DEBZs, based on my early experiments with them, and it is true enough to say, I think, that little Lowther does not play well with other children. Also, I would welcome a way to get the best from my Lowthers at 102 dB efficiency, but I haven't figured that out yet, and nothing I've heard so far beckons from any quarter. I agree, there are other drivers better suited to true HE applications.

Basically, the Lowther is the Achilles of drivers.

As for the double back horn, my guess is that it suffers the same sorts of cabinet colorations that all the other plywood backhorn Lowthers have, albeit it may after all better pitch the driver, which that driver can certainly use, since it is otherwise quite up-tilted, to say the least. And not to beat it into the ground, but IMO feeding that driver LF is the first Big Mistake people can make with it.

I hope you remember to use the best you get as a guide rather than making decisions based on bad electricity (like I keep doing...).

Or maybe, for that matter, we ought to go back to systems that hardly reflect bad electricity...

Throw in a Lava Lamp and I'll buy your Reps...

Best regards,
Paul S

	Target	Threads for related reading	Most recent post in related threads	Forum	Replies	Views	Started
»	New	Do not pursue full-range without being ready...	...observing the better and worst in upper bass......	Audio For Dummies ™ Forum	8	86070	01-02-2005
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	Target	Threads for related reading	Most recent post in related threads	Forum	Replies	Views	Started
»	New	Do not pursue full-range without being ready...	...observing the better and worst in upper bass......	Audio For Dummies ™ Forum	8	86070	01-02-2005
»	New	It is possible to eliminate some forms of gross side ba..	Re: EnABL Pattern and Ribbed Cones...	Audio Discussions Forum	22	167112	07-08-2005
»	New	Truth stretched out via Feastrex prism...	Goodbye Chris Witmer...	Audio Discussions Forum	26	317376	01-21-2006
»	New	Tweeter for Vitavox S2. High-sensitively ribbons?..	Correction: Townshend Ribbon and sensitivity....	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	64	843006	10-19-2006
»	New	EnABL: Just a note to awaken all of you peaceful sleepe..	I think "the Russian" is simply trying to con...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	14	122947	04-14-2007
»	New	Maxonic drivers from Japan..	Large midwoofers...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	6	90857	06-14-2007
»	New	A Moscow setup with Horns/Lowther..	A new reiteration of the Moscow setup....	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	33	356455	02-27-2011
»	New	Fostex tweeters, Lowther broadbanders on a limited rang..	How Much Best?...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	1	25785	04-12-2011