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  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  680791  07-29-2007
  »  New  Dannoy 2021 Loudspeakers..  It is all bout me....  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     24  35217  08-04-2021
  »  New  Bermuda Triangles of Audio..  Tannoy carton issues...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  12773  11-09-2021
11-10-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 81
Post ID: 26519
Reply to: 26518
Did I Miss Something?
Romy, I can't tell from what's been written, did you recently try to "perfectly re-create" the original, successful Dannoy/set-up in the original spots in you own listening room, using the same cabinets, electronics, etc., ad nauseum, and you are discouraged because even this did not "work"? Because I have been thinking you have only tried getting the original results with a different set-up since you gave the original boxes to Bill.

Paul S
11-10-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 82
Post ID: 26520
Reply to: 26517
Selfunderstood
Romy, it’s selfunderstood (at least to me) that the project is in its infancy and you are on terra incognita. Im trying to visualize what was „the last working configuration”. 
 Bill wrote:
These are Romy's original boxes and scanspeak used as passive radiator. I have purchased 10 inch tannoy reds with their crossovers to replace Romy's which I have given back to him. My Trinnov is doing a 24 dB Linkowitz Reilly crossover at 80 Hz. To my JL Audio f113 II subwoofers.The box walls are 1 plus inch thick with heavy duty 2 inch foam padding covering about 50 % of the volume.Outside Dimensions 12 wide x 19 inches long x 32 inches high giving about  3 cubic feet volume.

Bill thanks a lot! What I meant however was:1. Are the two lower ScanSpeaks of the Dunlavy bass tower connected? 2. What are the outer dims of the whole Dunlavy tower? 32” high is low for a tower of 4x10” drivers. Is 12” the width of the frontbaffle?
Nice to hear that you „got there” with your own pair of Red drivers so Roman’s Reds were not „the secret sauce”.
Best of luck Roman and Bill and thank you for making and sharing this effort!

Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
11-10-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 83
Post ID: 26521
Reply to: 26520
Crying.....

That last known configuration.

Actually I was running in my head multiple times and last known configuration. It was my friend and out of preamp into two separate B2 via a radio shack level cable, send to default Tannoy crossover and to Red driver from 60s. The bad was 1" MDF 3 cub feet, stuffed with 2 mid-density furniture foam. That sunspeak driver on the same baggle, disconnected. The crossover is in the third click. I am keeping this configuration in my head and I am having right now the same but different box. The box that I have now is not perfect but I do clearly identify Sonic differences which derived from box imperfections. There is however something else, which makes sound order of magnitude less radioactive than I would like it to be. Do not have a lot of time to experiment with this but have enough time to dictate on my phone this post to solicit some sympathy and potty. I need of them nowadays...


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-10-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 84
Post ID: 26522
Reply to: 26521
"Perfect"
The "perfect" box and the "perfect" ancillaries in this case are those that were in use when you got "It" from the Dunnoys. Save time; do that again, if you can, and start again from there. Not to throw in a curveball, but any dirt in the voicecoil, or a "cold" soldered connector that has gotten worse from handling, or whatever, a bum cap, on and on, could make bad sound. Not to mention, the variations in those old drivers, one to another, should suffice to make treasure hunters think twice.

Paul S
11-10-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 85
Post ID: 26523
Reply to: 26521
Bingo?!
Ah, I think I got a good break. Just had a short listening session. And it did sounded very fine, with no compression and with all those gorgeous hallucinations in place... It almost like good versus bad electricity but I think I have a different primer now. I turn my amplifiers around 2 hours and right now they are well burned I typically don't run them all time and all my recent  listenings where pretty much just cold stone amplifiers. I kind of was seduce that solid state amplifier is ready right away. Milk needed good 30-40 minutes to sound is best. Apparently between it couple hours to be hit up. I measure temperature which go out of enclosure and it's running 95° F. It is highly possible that it might be it, it is possible that this topology of amplifiers need to be well thirmo stabilized in order to stop to compress sound. I don't have a lot more data but I certainly will take it under consideration. A month ago when I had that spectacular sound out out Dannoy I did not turn amplifiers for 2 weeks or so. Let's see how it goes....


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-10-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 86
Post ID: 26525
Reply to: 26523
Caps?
Do you have your B2's refurbished with new caps? Another place to look are the old Tannoy crossovers.


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
11-11-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 87
Post ID: 26526
Reply to: 26525
Is it typical?
Are you saying that this behavior is behavior is characteristic for dried out capacitors? I need to admit that I know very little about solid state electronics and I have no idea how it ages. My amplifiers are 40 years old and certainly it would be common sense to deal with capacitors. They are all original and nothing was changed since there besides removing call commutation circuitries.  I am a bit hesitant to do it as I have B3 that was "professionaly serviced" and all capacitors replaced but the unit does not sound the way how I like. I might do it in the future but it is like the story of this APS regenerator: since either I or they no why it sounds so good better not to touch it because any "fix" migjt screw it up. Anyhow, I need to test what I discovered yesterday more. I was told the solid state electronics need to be around all time. My Dac and my preamp never were turn off for probably 20 years unless I was living house for very long time. I know the preamp not only sound bad when it's cold but actually a remote control does not work unless it's plugged in for half of the day. One way or other I would be grateful if it would be the true reason with my "losing good sound" as it would be easy to fix. 

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-11-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 88
Post ID: 26529
Reply to: 26526
Not completely conclusive but the demonstrably convincing
Fully armed with my new knowledge I made today an interesting experiment. I listen Remedios as is this amplifiers running for 35 minutes and then re-listen them again in 2 hours. It was very very convincing, very self-evident but slightly not what I anticipated. I anticipated that I will see difference in compression but I did not and I actually was very surprised as initially, stone cold amplifier, did not sound like a compressed. It did not sound good at all but I very fast realized that it is not a compression a normal sense. Compression implies shrinkage of dynamic range but I did not detect that the call dynamic range was compromised. It was rather not the whole dynamic range was the problem but the problem was with any sustained note of any amplitude did not allowed another note to elevate over itself dynamically. It's means if I have some kind of pedal point at 75 decibel and then above it I have some event unfold which should go to 20 decibel up, then those seventh decibels were fine but the events which unfold above pedal point where not at 95 decibel but at 80 decibel. I certainly did not do any measuring I'm just talking about my feeling of what I heard. It was almost like an amplifier ran automatic microphone volume control. Ass amplifier begin to warm up this effect begin to minimize very dramatically and approximately in hour and a half this dynamic plato over sustained notes become converted into the very animated randomness.  Also, all those spooky sounds spooky sounds, hallucinogenic sounds, side vision sounds, unexpectedly beautiful sounds and the rest of the Bermuda triangle crap did not show up until the amp was fully hot.

I do not know if it is a property of solid state amplifiers, this specific model or specific quality of older capacitors but this is certainly the case. I kind of experience bipolar disorder with this news. From one prospective I am very glad that I found primer which looks like might be manageable. From another perspective one of the advantages, I thought, would be that I can just flip a switch and run my audio. I do not think it will happening with those amplifiers. I was told that it is okay to run solid state AB amplifiers all time. I was also told by the people who use SIT amplifier for a long time that it is not good idea to leave them on all time as they have a tendency overheat and faile output transistors. I certainly have a lot of options on table...



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-11-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014
Post #: 89
Post ID: 26530
Reply to: 26529
Never been my experience...
...that SS amps do not require significant warmup for best sound.  Class A SS in particular need time to get up to temperature to sound their best.  A 25W diy Class A that I have here does not stabilise bias for a good 40mins to an hour, more when ambient temperature is cold.

But great that progress seems to happening...three steps forward, two back. 
11-11-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 90
Post ID: 26531
Reply to: 26530
I do not know how it works generally but...
in my case what I discovered is certainly very convincing. I tested today 3 times. The last time I has SS it was Lamm 1.1 and BAT 200, they did need 30 min to warm up but the sonic difference was not as huge as I observe with B2. Before 2 hours B2 in my view  sounds like a regular PA amp. I just ordered this devise, it almost like was made for my task. I can even put a heater in the amp and keep it warm...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08ZNF1S7Z/


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-11-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014
Post #: 91
Post ID: 26532
Reply to: 26531
Constipated
Once had a Xindak Class A amp here on loan that was not too bad once it had warmed up,  but the first 20 minutes sounded like it needed to include a lot more fibre in its diet. 
11-12-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 117
Joined on 03-15-2010
Post #: 92
Post ID: 26533
Reply to: 26532
Not just the heat
just keeping it warm probably won't help.It’s also the stabilization of the capacitors and other components. You must keep it on or allow several hours warmup time for best results. If class ab and not class a, will use little electricity.
11-12-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 93
Post ID: 26534
Reply to: 26533
Class A/B Warm Up
My class A/B SS amps happen to idle at 500W, and the A-to-B crossover point may vary from one A/B amp to another. But what Bill says remains true for many (if not most) [SS] audio electrical components. Some manufacturers recommend leaving the component on all the time, or it may remain in a "sleep" state when it's "turned off", with some current running through it at all times. I do not leave my gear on all the time, and it takes up to 3 or 4 hours for the sound to open up and get loose of the speakers if it's been off for a while. Old caps can be very weird, with weird sound effects. I thought the B2 and the B3 sounded different from one another, if one uses them by turns?

Paul S
11-13-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 94
Post ID: 26535
Reply to: 26526
Hypothesizing
I don't have experience with vintage electronics but from purely hypothetical point of view I guess there are two major warm up processes:
1. Warming up and reaching thermal stability by semiconductors.
2. Electrochemical processes in electrolytics.
Since you describe that cold amps have problems with generating "excess dynamics" I'd guess it is the second. *Might* be the old caps cannot provide enough current on demand until they fully charge/stabilize. If you are going to put a heater and pre-heat the amp you will quickly falsify the option 1.

Cheers, Jarek


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
11-13-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 95
Post ID: 26536
Reply to: 26531
I never the that I would be to say it…
....but here it comes: Do not look Remedios the Beauty under her skirt as you might see some ugly things.

RemediosUnderScirt.jpg


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-13-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 96
Post ID: 26537
Reply to: 26536
Totally Rational
Randomize reflections. Can't hurt. I use either felt, or electrician's putty, or both on surfaces near drivers. Only way to decide on volume is to mess with that, as well. Ain't enough time in a day...

Paul S
11-16-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 97
Post ID: 26543
Reply to: 26535
More on caps
FYI: Talked to a vintage specialist/repairman about old dried caps. Compressed sound and lack of space are the two things he mentioned straight away.


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
11-16-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 98
Post ID: 26544
Reply to: 26543
I do not know yet
Thank you very much, it is very nice to learn about it. The dilemma that I see standing in front of me is following. In a 194 months, I have  my Remies completed and fully operational, sounding perfect after 2 hours, let's pretend. Should I change the 40 years old cops that I have in there. I do not know. Will I lose "magic" with it? Will I risk it? Will I have better sound but less Bermuda Triangle payload? I do have B3 amplifier with all new capacitors. It sounds very fine but no ''magic... I have no idea why. I did call to my technician and told that might be tooth I would like to recalibrated and serviced but at this point I'm a bit hesitant to release them as I have no idea what is that magic come from. Who knows, it's mine not even be capacitors but warmed up coils of red driver. I do not have answers in this point



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-16-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 117
Joined on 03-15-2010
Post #: 99
Post ID: 26546
Reply to: 26544
Remember
You had that glorious sound with the 40 year old caps in the B2's and the Tannoy crossovers. Do you really want to move away from what they produced in your system. A good way of testing new vs. old caps would be to replace the tannoy original crossovers with your new English ones and hear the difference. With the Yamaha’s you could replace one cap at a time and see if there is any improvement or worsening. Then continue with other caps or replace the original depending on the findings. 
11-16-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 100
Post ID: 26547
Reply to: 26546
Breaker, Breaker; Break In Time!
Old Parts Club people climb over each other's backs for orange and lemon drops, old washing machine motor run, Russian Guided Missle controllers, etc., but good moderns caps certainly have better specs. In any case, evaluations of any new caps should wait until the new caps are broken in; and that can take A While. More waiting. Great...

Paul S
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   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  680791  07-29-2007
  »  New  Dannoy 2021 Loudspeakers..  It is all bout me....  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     24  35217  08-04-2021
  »  New  Bermuda Triangles of Audio..  Tannoy carton issues...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  12773  11-09-2021
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