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  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  686951  07-29-2007
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10-13-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1
Post ID: 26391
Reply to: 26391
Remedies the Beauty
Yesterday Remedies the Beauty was shipped me from my cabinet builder. 

Another couple weeks and I will be able to start to play with it, teaching her to sound right. If you follow my side for the last month or two then you know that Remedies it is a natural derivative of my accidental Dannoy experiment. The synopsis of the story that couple months ago I loaded Tannoy Red infield enclosure and passive refrigerator, drove it with VFET transistor amplifier and got absolutely amazing sound. This amazing sound was so beyond anything that I was able to produce intentionally that it led me to temporary abandonment of my entire installation and a desire to build brand new system completely focusing on this new experience. I've been trying for a long time to describe to myself what attract me in that new sound and I have many different hypothesis that I myself subscribe. What I know is the sound is so much different, so much attractive, so much beautiful that it takes literally efforts, physical efforts over myself to stop listening. I have no idea what is responsible for this but what I am hearing is very different from anything that I heard before and I naturally have huge interest in it. This is some kind of new type of sound which is extremely high in eloquinism, clarity, expensively, absolutely uncivilized attractiveness but at the same time superbly not judgmental, not dominating, non-critical... I feel when I was listening to the sound that I am a child who ate lot of chocolate and then somebody give me a glass of ice cold water. Absolutely amazing feeling and the most important that I spent zero efforts to achieve it. My Dannoy was wired garbage cables, zero installation efforts spent and the result was so great is that it seduced me to disassemble my quite highly performing multi-amp multicellular horn installation.

So, the Remedies loud speakers it's just a new enclosure for Dannoy concept, risk custom crossovers and complemented with 15-in Vitavox midbase driver.

I do not know if it will be successful or not project but that inspiration is certainly there..

a1-f1-m69402-4706e56d0afeae1beffbcc31100d576be88e5022.jpg


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-14-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 2
Post ID: 26392
Reply to: 26391
I feel better now
It is comforting to know that the Vitavox is in the running with the Tannoy. I am very interested in the results - also with the crossover intentions.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-15-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 3
Post ID: 26393
Reply to: 26392
Of course, it should not be a full range operation for Reds
Oh, yes this is the whole idea of Remedies, it is not only a Red combination but it is an assembly with midbass channel which would make it a conventional box loudspeaker. You see, with all interesting things about Tannoy Red the woofer part of the driver is very colored, relatively compressed and the most important it is virtually impossible to find cons in perfect conditions. Loading Reds to sealed enclosure and passive refrigerator, particulary is one that I use, helps for some reasons with colorations tremendously but it still does not eliminate very small bass driver diaphragm excursion and all negative aspects associated with it. So if I high pass Red woofer and implement the bottom another mid base channel of beautiful sound then it removes red woofer from dangerous zone, in terms of clipping, in turn of coloration, in term of diaphragm sagging and in terms of dynamic compression. I am not sure where the crossover point end to be. Bill is experimenting with the same configuration as well and he crossed I think at 100 cycles and then let his 40 Hertz base horns to handle the bottom. I do not know where I will end up. I think it will be innocent between 50 and 150 cycles.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-15-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,672
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 4
Post ID: 26394
Reply to: 26393
Drivers, Boxes, Baffles, and X/Os
Don't know the Vitavox, but some of the old 15" drivers sound good up to 4-500 Hz. For my own current project I will be crossing a modern 10" driver at about 200 Hz, for reasons of efficiency, and not planning to use the walls for baffle extensions. Part of "efficiency" for me is keeping the driver comfortable and "lively", as they seem to become sluggish/dead if pushed down too much.

Paul S
10-15-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 5
Post ID: 26395
Reply to: 26394
My little private war for England
Paul, this is very different project for me in term of my relationship between my belief systems, personal inclinations, and my actions. Typically, I have certain concepts or even feelings and I'm trying to follow them but in this case is different. The result I got from Dannoy, as Remedios porotype, was so good in my view, and so much outside of my control that I would like just literally replicate what had happened with Dannoy. The Remedios is just sexy box version of Dannoy, nothing more. In my memory I literally have no single objective to improve sound from what I heard from Dannoy and I still have tons of opportunities to do it. I am a little bit at fear that then I assemble Remedios I might lose what I had with Dannoy. This will be a major screw up and in fact, I had a dream about it. So at this point all that I need to get Remedios boxes, put the drivers in and hopefully to get what I was getting from Dannoy. Then I will take it further. From certain perspective I feel like the test pilot who did the first ever Spitfire flight, who reportedly after landing instructed the designers do not touch anything in the aircraft. Let see how it will go….

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-15-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 6
Post ID: 26396
Reply to: 26395
Back to the podium
Hmmm. teaching middle class “musicians” serious music. A very noble project that you have.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-17-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 117
Joined on 03-15-2010
Post #: 7
Post ID: 26406
Reply to: 26395
Further experimentation
I have heard several Tannoy speakers in the past, but have never heard the quality of sound Romy has obtained with his brain child. I don't know whether it is the speakers alone or his setup which has allowed his system to enthrall so much more than I've heard in the past with other Tannoy setups.

 I have been working with Romy's excess cabinets, drivers and crossovers he let me borrow while he's hard at work with a new client( of course between his youtube excellent lectures.) like Romy I had previously had horns,  actually six 4 way combination of Edgar and self built horns in a surround sound configuration using a Trinnov pre-pro with a total of 24 channels of solid state amplification after selling my tube amplifiers due to financial constraints which have somewhat resolved. 

The Dannoy's ( as Romy spells it) are the main front channels driven at present with two stereo First Watt style balanced amps, and crossed over at 200 Hz to JL Audio 13 inch subwoofers. The Trinnov pre-pro has done dsp to time align all drivers to less than 0.1 mm phase correction and frequency flat to +/- 2 dB.  Romy also let me borrow his old and brand new Tannoy 12 dB/ octave crossovers and I have used a Behringer pro four way 24 dB crossover, and have found the cleanest, but with somewhat less “ it” factor with the Behringer. I could not hear any difference between the old and new Tannoy crossovers, but my system is somewhat hampered as I have not removed my Edgar horns from the Dannoy's sides, as My next experiment will be to use my 50 to 600 hz horns, so that may have affected the sound quality.

Happily, About 20% of my best recordings have improved in their emotional grab of my soul, Romy's so-called IT”. Unhappily, 80 % sound less inthralling compared to my Edgar horn presentation and I have not been able to come close to what I heard at Romy's, even with my best recordings. Whether that is due to his superior front end, his Yamaha amps or his room and recordings I have no idea, but I have two of his Yamaha B2 amps on order from Japan so hopefully they will improve the sound. 

Am now awaiting Romy time freedom and new speaker enclosure to further experiment with him.
Bill
10-17-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 8
Post ID: 26411
Reply to: 26391
The consequential idea....

Well, the people who regularly read this site, or even better who know me personally, know that there are very few non consequential ideas from me. So, after posting a few days ago a post about “it” in audio
 
 
 
 
my next thinking is highly predictable …
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-18-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,672
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 9
Post ID: 26412
Reply to: 26411
All You Need is LOVE!!!
Well, that's a Trip! Of course, Love Is The Answer. But this is not something you hear at audio wbsites, is it? Like Einstein working for Civil Rights!


Best regards,
Paul S
10-18-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 10
Post ID: 26413
Reply to: 26412
Some sanity in the end, or at the beginning...
 Paul S wrote:
Well, that's a Trip! Of course, Love Is The Answer. But this is not something you hear at audio wbsites, is it? Like Einstein working for Civil Rights!

Well, I clearly understand that I am waxing poetry over the subject that in the end will have very clear technical reasoning and I am doing only because I do not know the reasons, at least yet. Still at this level of my understanding, I do feel comfortable with half metaphysical and half BS explanation that playback chose us instead of we chose playback. It makes me to feel special feeling that Dannoy/Remedies choose me. At least it will wonderfully explain, for a week mind of mine, that Macondo/Milq combination “did not love me”. I think it would be different if I did not give a birth to Macondo/Milq but juts bought it. Anyhow, it is what it is and I am gravitate in peace. The only thing that I a bit afraid that I will fuck it up with Remedies and will be forced returned to the Dannoy accident...


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-18-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,672
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 11
Post ID: 26414
Reply to: 26413
Navigation Skills
I think we share the idea that who we are and what we do are part and parcel of our Circumstances, and no reason to exclude Music. The Sound of the Music is what we are capable of hearing. Every Moment is a Gift, and an Opportunity. What Guides us matters. Your Gratitude for the Dannoy is Part of It, and a certain amount of Humility seems to be essential.

I know what you mean about "Letting Go". I really stuck my neck out on my current project.


Best regards,
Paul S
10-18-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 12
Post ID: 26415
Reply to: 26412
Incompleteness 101?
My view of Gödels "incompleteness" has more to do with systems not being able to verify themselves from within. This certainly can apply to audio in that the playback specifications can be very "qualified" but the "quality" must be found outside of the audio world. It can also apply to people in that they can not through their actions "earn" better relationships, the qualities of those relationships must be viewed outside of the earning process to determine their "completeness".

I still am not sure what I am hearing. Is the reaction to Macondo system being evaluated in the Macondo ecosystem (with its incompleteness), or is there now abstraction due to the Dunnoy presentation? Was the Macondo experience the ecosystem of "exaggeration", like too much MSG in chinese take out? Is the current driving force for Remedios "exaggerated" (same ecosystem) because there appears to be a hole in the personal "knowledge base" - or does the symphonic conductor now delegated to the audience seek a comeback in chamber music? Does any of this matter (the Dunnoys will still be there after Remedios)?

I am VERY interested where the ability to "teach" Remedios goes...

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-18-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 13
Post ID: 26416
Reply to: 26415
I need to confess that I do not know... and I like it.
Rowuk, there is many implications of the incompleteness. The systems not being able to verify itself is just one of them, it is how he proved it. I less care about the proof methodology but the care about the outcome from it. One of them is that if you have a well-defined coordinate system and you can objectively recognize that a statement if true then you will always have another external coordinate system where you true might not be true. I less care about mathematical aspect of Godel idea but I rather look on it from philosophical, of if I might say ultimate uncertainty perspective. Do you remember 20 year ago I was writing that audio withe itself has no answers to audio questions. It was influence to Godel over me…


I do not know what you mean about the rest. The Dunnoys is was wonderful but it was ad hoc implementation “as is”, just bunch of the drivers put together. As Remedios will be done, and hopeful perform like Dannoy, then it will be no Dannoy anymore. In fact, I do not have it as I gave Dannoy to Bill but. Did you buy jularys for you wife what you mate here to make her pretty and happy. So, do I with my Remedios, I would like to give to her a nice enclosure and clean operational space.
 
The Dunnoys or Remedios are not a loudspeaker truly but rather a concept. The problem that I cannot defines what it is. The working version is that Dunnoys/Remedios is LF eased Tannoy Red sealed loaded into sub 20Hz passive radiator and driven buy SIT. I do not know what ingridiesnt in this are mandatory. Will I have the same “it” in the sound if I drive it with SET, of FET, or JFET of by anything else? Will I have it I use Gold drivers instead of Reds, or Tannoy contemporary drivers? Will I have if I use other loading topologies for Reds. I have no answers and I did not experiment with it and as soon I got the result I was sold. With whole honesty the only thing that I am sorry now is that I did not drive with SIT amplifier Macondo before I assemble it. In fact, I am planning to do it. I do not think that it would be smart to drive my compression drivers with 140W 40 years old amp. But if I put my hands in PASS First Watt CIT 3then I will be very interested to see what the result would be.  But, again, Nilsson used Sony VFAT as they are reportedly all different. I do not have luxury to spend another 10 years to go for the bottom of it and then to recognized that … Godel was right… 😊

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-18-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 14
Post ID: 26417
Reply to: 26416
I like it too!
Actually, it is fascinating to see someone who has well defined objectives on slippery ice. What surprised me was the extreme cut off of the Macondo - somewhat like an unfaithful wife, but actually (from my view) Macondo was 100% faithful to its creator....
I would be disappointed if you already had all of the answers. I am waiting for the chapter on "rediscovering" your record collection. I anticipate that there will be a lot for me to learn...

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-19-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 15
Post ID: 26418
Reply to: 26411
Interesting.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-19-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 117
Joined on 03-15-2010
Post #: 16
Post ID: 26420
Reply to: 26418
You've hit it
1. The less we have to fill in for the brain to reconstruct the original event, the better it will sound. This has been proven by psychologists for all of our senses. The closer to reality the sensation is, the less the brain has to work, the more relaxed and comfortable we are, the more we feel the original event, no matter which of the senses.
2. It's the entire system which produces this closeness to the actual event, from the original concert hall, microphones and recording equipment, to the recording engineer's fiddling with the middle product, to your playback, from recording type, to room configuration to amplification to speakers and all in between. 
3. The combination of your room, electricity improvement to the playback equipment to the final amplification, wiring and speakers all add up to the final feeling of the listener. While I have the same PurePower electricity improver and  your original Dannoy's here, I have yet to achieve what I heard in your room. Why? Because I am using different and probably inferior playback equipment. It will be interesting to see what happens when I receive my YamahB2 amplifiers to replace my solid state amplifiers, hopefully in the next few days, to at least remove that variable from the equation. Then it will only be my recording and equipment sources and room which will be different. If I then match what you have obtained, then we'll know it’s the B2 and Danny synergism that produces the “IT.”
4. As digital breaks up the music into small bits of information, leaving your senses and brain to put the pieces together, it will be interesting to see what analog recordings will do to your Danny “IT” postulation. Time to get a decent replacement cartridge for your turntable.
Bill
10-20-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014
Post #: 17
Post ID: 26421
Reply to: 26418
I'm not buying it...
...well, I do not understand how a "playback that loves you whomever you are" is to sound like and cannot even imagine what sounds or types of sounds could illicit that particular emotional response.  It is not that I do not believe you Romy, because I do, but what does it mean?  You have spent a good deal of time documenting your experience but I do not understand.

After a few months listening and learning about my surround speakers yesterday I took delivery of a new dac and decided that Macondo/Melquiades needed to be brought back into service.  I've missed them dearly, and oh, what a relief!  

Thinking about your recent analogies comparing playback with stereotypes of women and love have been interesting, but I am unable to see Macondo that sort of light.  Sure, if Macondo were a female she is definitely the most beautiful in the room, a supermodel.  And there is nothing dull about her, she exudes intelligence and self confidence and is definitive in her actions.  If forced to think of Macondo in terms of a romantic relationship the closest would be those first heady years full of lust and flirtation where she establishes in your mind her intelligence and thoughtfulness and how the remainder of her time with you should be lived...see if you can keep up.  Some men will relish the dynamics of the relationship, some will feel like they are punching above their weight, and some hold too dearly to their chauvanistic tendencies and feel inadequate that she is the better of the pair.
10-20-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 18
Post ID: 26422
Reply to: 26421
It is what it is…
Anthony,

I do not insist that I have the correct answer as now as my greatest fear that I will have my Remedies assembled I will get nothing close to what I got with Dannoy a month ago. It would be ugly if the remarkable success with Dannoy would be “just a few days of super good electricity”. It is possible? Yes. I personally do not think so and I feel that there was “something” in it and made quite the efforts to go for it and to “get” it. I still have no idea what I will get in the end. Now, about the "playback that loves you”. I know it sounds ridicules, but I am taking about my interpersonal relationship with my own playback, I do not think I seek understanding from others, I more care about my own understanding. And my understanding I have presented. I know each minute aspect of Macondo/Milq sound, and they are in complete control of my mind. I literally can read the history of mt last 20 year by listening Macondo/Milq. I can hear a phrase and listening how a given phrase was presented by Macondo/Milq my mind attributes it to a specific air-gap of sole kind of transformer in Milg and the location of the transformer in the frame of Macondo. Also, I feel those weeks and thousand dollars spent on it and the hours and weeks of conversations with different design specialist in order to learn what it all means. It is not the painful experiences that I have problem with, but I do not want to have these associations while I am listening to music. I want to be surprised by musical sensation and do not feel that music is my son who build his own shed and I am very proud of this fact. It is possible that it is only my personal experiences, still I do not want my playback who act as a contemptuous nagging wife but I would like a playback each day to acts as people who just discovered love in themselves and they descending into the feelings deeper and deeper. For some reasons Dannoy gave it to me, it just embraced me with all my imperfection and told me “you are mine, I am yours let be together”. That is so simple… No air-gaps, no retubing, no quality of drivers, no efforts, not even knowledge about all of it. Just turn a switch and experience streaming love. I should be an idiot not to go after it. Obviously, I will be singing different songs when in a few weeks I will not be able to replicate the Dannoy effect… 😊
 
If to think, as you propose, in terms of playbacks and romantic relationships then I behave like an old man who left his five for another person who gave him instant bliss of new feeling. They are number men who do it for right or wrong reason but how do we know how right we were before our lifer is over? I have in fa family example as a young girl went to another city, 2000 miles away weeding salon to pick her weeding dress and instantly fall in love with weeding dress salesperson. They lived superbly happily for over 60 years together. Do not forgets that playback is not object with soul and there is a factor of betraying. The collection of transformers, tube and drivers feel equally comfortable to sit in listening room or in my basement.
 
Frankly speaking I care less about my fate with Macondo or Dannoy. All that I want at this point to get from Remedies the same that I was getting from Dannoy and I do not lose my sleep. Do you want I share what I am losing my sleep nowadays? My 5yo some two days ago asked me to turn TV sound in car down. I ask him why he feal that it was too load. He relayed “Distortions, Daddy.” So, as I am losing my sleep, I am bothered with a question to myself: I have two sons, who will have Macondo/Milq and who will have Dunnoy/SIT. Most likely of cause both of playbacks will end up in garbage container and I am ok with it, but this is not about playbacks fate or continuation of narrative but about what I feel now rendered with cable elevators. Some people write books, some compose music, some paint, I live by amusing myself with Sound.  It is what it is…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-22-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 19
Post ID: 26424
Reply to: 26422
Jung
Gentlemen, working with mathematics as a tool all my adult life I cannot understand your fascination with Goedel's thm here. Yes, it is catchy but I think it does not apply here, it's a rigid math/logic fact, and what's more even leads astray in understanding of psychological processes involved. In general math and logic is a very poor language for describing psyche. I wholeheartedly recommend reading Jung's "Psychology and Alchemy" esp. Part III "Religious ideas in alchemy". Jung's depth is infinite, while Goedel might at best scratch the surface. Bottom line is that there are  certain psychological processes and reactions, esp. when confronted with the unknown, which are universal for human psyche and Jung analyzes them on the example of alchemists.  For example unconscious processes always, by their nature, appear and are perceived by consciousness as external, e.g. by being projected into the matter or nature. Then people see ghosts, hear torsion fields, or think the system chooses them, while in reality these are subconscious processes surfacing through different channels. I'm trying to find time to apply Jung's analysis of alchemists to describe the state of our understanding of quantum mechanics. The parallels are not less then striking! Next on the list would be audio. 


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-22-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,672
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 20
Post ID: 26425
Reply to: 26424
Bringing Infinity to Heel
Read enough Jung and you may come to the conclusion that there is no conclusion. I think what we're talking about is the inevitable "objective/subjective" conumdrum coupled with a sort of "overview" that allows us to go on. While we in some way "know" certain "facts", yet even the most basic tenets tend to mystify when loosed from their "conceptual moorings". So much of early science involved seeing, touching, smelling, tasting, etc., and racking the experience for what it was. Now that we have "cataloged" so many things, you'd think we'd have about everything covered, especially simple stuff like audio. Only we don't. So the question becomes, how much rote information do you want to process in a rote manner to try to "re-create" an experience "you know you had"? And how much of finding one's "way back home" is "just" "the sense of it". Not to mention, there's a certain satisfaction that comes from developing what commonly passes for intuition.


Paul S
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  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  686951  07-29-2007
  »  New  Dannoy 2021 Loudspeakers..  It is all bout me....  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     24  36396  08-04-2021
  »  New  Bermuda Triangles of Audio..  Tannoy carton issues...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  13164  11-09-2021
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