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09-21-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 1781
Post ID: 26318
Reply to: 26317
DIY mucking up a well engineered product?
The subject of line filters and uninterruptable power supplies is one that has been pretty free of amateur DIY myths. No one seems to know what makes one sound good or bad and when. The subjects getting attention are 
IsolationReconstruction of sine wave ACStabilisationfiltration
None of these issues has been quantified as having anything to do with sound quality.
My view is that removing the DC-DC converter would destroy the PP+ concept but have no technical or theoretical advantage.
If I were even interested in this above and beyond the APC RT class UPS that I use, it would be to figure out better power supplies for my devices instead of an extra box with its own life. I feel pretty blessed with the quality of the 230V german power grid.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
09-22-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 347
Joined on 02-11-2009
Post #: 1782
Post ID: 26319
Reply to: 26318
Having good sound 24/7
 rowuk wrote:
The subject of line filters and uninterruptable power supplies is one that has been pretty free of amateur DIY myths. No one seems to know what makes one sound good or bad and when. The subjects getting attention are 
IsolationReconstruction of sine wave ACStabilisationfiltration
None of these issues has been quantified as having anything to do with sound quality.
You are 100% true and this is the reason that i ask my questions here not in DIY forums.Better power supply should have better dynamics and any AC filter/solution in Power supply design will limit dynamics.There is no solution for AC problem in Power supply design.pure power is wonderful when is connected to Wall AC and my problem is the Wall AC quality affects on pure power sound. My listening times is in evening and night around 6PM to 10PM and the wall AC quality is bad in these times. I am looking for a solution to have good sound all the time.

www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
09-22-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,656
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 1783
Post ID: 26320
Reply to: 26319
Wouldn't It Be Nice?
Amir, this is the most popular thread at GSC for a reason. While most people don't give bad electricity a thought, there are obviously plenty of audio people who are looking for answers to these questions. Since my AC provider went "Smart", the AC where I'm living now initially got worse for the change, and by now it has settled down to being more consistent, not as good as it used to be at its best, and not as bad as it used to be at its worst. I never would send money to Pure Power, because of the odds of getting either nothing at all or of getting chronic problems in return for the money. However, I did pay some attention to what people had to say about their PP experiences, over the course of this very long thread. What I got from the aggregate of many user anecdotes here is that Pure Power never did "correct" the power grid AC, and it always injected its own sound. And some PP users have said that the best un-treated AC still sounds "better" than typical Pure Power sound. I have long suspected that the PP's PWM output has an effect on typical component power supplies that alters the sound in a way that happy PP users like. GSC member (and my friend) Mark has consistently the best AC I have ever heard. I mean it as the highest compliment when I say it is not a problem anymore. He has dedicated, in-phase hi-fi circuits with unbroken, separate, dedicated neutrals and grounds, and he has good quality AC outlets. But no PP. Over the years he added a solar powered UPS system that includes 2 giant Tesla batteries, and he has control (on his phone!) over how the system is configured.  To my ears, his system still sounds best powered by the optimal grid, compared to the batteries alone. While I am curious as to whether a PP 3000+ would further improve things, I would not be chasing this if I were in his shoes. For another thing, he uses two 1,200 Watt monoblock tube amps, and not sure how that would play with PP.

Paul S
09-22-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 347
Joined on 02-11-2009
Post #: 1784
Post ID: 26321
Reply to: 26320
Pure Power is not Neutral
Paul. 
GSC = goodsoundclub 
I have worked with Richard (pure power owner) and i know the problems of customers but i think paypal is a good way to shop from Richard. Ask Richard to send you video from the unit before paying to him. Recently 3 or 4 pure power units shipped to iran and there was no problem. You may wonder but Richard supported us in iran. Working with him needs to be patient. I prefer to accept the risk of buying pure power because it is the only solution for me.I know how pure power change the sound and i like it , it is not Neutral but the effect is good. I think transparent systems will show positive effects of pure power but most audio systems are not very transparent to fully show how pure power is good.There are other solutions out there , i know Kevin (Living Voice) uses Victron Energy Phoenix Inverters in his showroom but i don't know how good is it.Victron Inverters are Class D inverters with output transformer.I am also thinking about using 15kva Victron inverter to supply my Pure power , two AC regenerator in series.


Opzv gel battery(48v dc)  -> Victron Inverter (230v AC out) -> AC in PurePower 3000-> 230v 50hz -> Audio System

These ideas are not cheap and the risk is most of ideas will not improve the sound

www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
09-22-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1785
Post ID: 26322
Reply to: 26321
Going through ground circuit
Amir, I thought there was speculation upthread that the AC mains could introduce some small amount of noise through the ground circuits? Can you run a dedicated ground where you are? I do notice subtle changes on occasion but much less than without the double conversion. My experience is also that tube gear benefits less from this than SS which may partly account for Paul S friend with his tube monoblocks. I would also suggest you try a simple tweak. I assume you have a CD player or other digital source you can hook up. Get a pink noise file and run it on repeat for a couple of hours. Keep the volume low so you don't drive yourself crazy. then play something familiar. Note any change in sonics.
09-22-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 1786
Post ID: 26323
Reply to: 26321
PP experience
I had the same experience with PP Richard - very supportive. That was at least my experience - I was fighting a phono grounding issue, well documented up this thread, and Richard was helping a lot with his advise and expertise.

So Amir if PP is not neutral, then what it is?

Do you use a separate line with a separate ground for PP?

If so, have you tried audio grade fuses on this line?

Have you tried different power cables to power PP?





Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
09-24-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 347
Joined on 02-11-2009
Post #: 1787
Post ID: 26324
Reply to: 26322
No dedicated Ground Line
Steverino
I live in a big complex (6 floor - totally 200 apartments) and I can not have my own dedicated ground . there are three phases AC Power in the building and one of them is not good, sometimes  the AC voltage goes over 230v and i asked technician to connect the wall AC outlet wire to another phase. after playing pink noise there is no sonic changes , i think the system has not ground loop problem.  

N-Set
PP is very good but it is different in comparison by good direct wall AC. the sound is more alive with PP. i think more dynamic/transparent systems will let us know more about pure power effect.  I can not have separate earth line for my system . the earth/neutral/phases lines are shared . i did not use audio grade fuses but i will order it soon. yes i have connected PP to wall AC by Purist neptune AC cable and it was very good. i think PP is sensitive to AC Cable.




www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
09-26-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 1788
Post ID: 26330
Reply to: 26324
PP
By "more alive" you mean artificially alive?  In my case, PP resulted in more engagement, not sure if this is a result of aliveness.  It does inject 20kHz all over the place that might add some "sparkle". I have dedicated AC line + GND for the PP down to the distr. box outside my apartment. 


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
09-27-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 347
Joined on 02-11-2009
Post #: 1789
Post ID: 26331
Reply to: 26330
Sparke
 N-set wrote:
By "more alive" you mean artificially alive?  In my case, PP resulted in more engagement, not sure if this is a result of aliveness.  It does inject 20kHz all over the place that might add some "sparkle". I have dedicated AC line + GND for the PP down to the distr. box outside my apartment. 

Yes , PP inject 20khz and there is some sparkle that is not important to me. If i say PP is not neutral then it is not about this sparkle.I think The PP "micro dynamics" is not Like Wall AC , PP injects energy (like cold fresh air) to the sound that i never heard from wall AC . I do not speak about macro dynamics , i speak about micro dynamics , i have no idea what happen in PP but the sound is fresh and sexy. I can not imagine my audio system without PP. 


www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
09-27-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1790
Post ID: 26332
Reply to: 26331
Hmmm
No not hum but hmmm. I don't hear anything like sparkle using the PP. It's deader allowing more ambient cues to come through consistently. Of course my hearing is no longer bat like, so maybe the youthful ears of Amir and NSet are able to hear what I believe is digital hash of some sort that the PP emits. I first noticed this when I tried hooking up a TT speed controller through the PP rather than the wall. The sound became grayer through the system even though there was no direct connection into the signal path.
09-27-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 347
Joined on 02-11-2009
Post #: 1791
Post ID: 26333
Reply to: 26332
Different systems respond differently
I have connected PP to 7 different audio systems and the result was quite different.


www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
09-27-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1792
Post ID: 26334
Reply to: 26333
A bit worrisome
Yes the variability is there but the AC Mains and ground  contribute to it as well as the audio system. It's not quite at the level of aftermarket power cords but there are clearly issues with even the double conversion that need to be improved.
09-28-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 1793
Post ID: 26339
Reply to: 26331
Cold fresh air...
...is possibly what I call a 'sparkle'. Amir, you seem to have quite some experience with PP. How did other systems you tested react to PP?

Anyone here with 'audiophile fuses' experience? I'm considering trying one 10x38 mm before PP but the amount of fuses out there is huge.


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
09-28-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1794
Post ID: 26341
Reply to: 26339
Audiophile fuses
I have these fuses in all my components with fuses. However I would say they have a more noticeable effect in speakers and amplifiers particularly SS amps.As to their safety I have noticed no problems. A notable mastering engineer tested them and found they failed at the stated range. As to their effect I noticed less congestion on loud passages and an increase in general ease. I can only speculate that conventional fuses are designed purely to fail at the right time without worrying about what they do when they are just passing AC normally.
09-29-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 347
Joined on 02-11-2009
Post #: 1795
Post ID: 26342
Reply to: 26339
Different systems
N-Set  
In Tehran properly setup audio systems are rare and most of the time we have not enough transparency to see what PP do with sound.some audiophiles in tehran believe the PP is not good (they prefer AC Line Filters to PP) because they had not good result from PP but i think the problem is not from PP .dead sounding amplifier/speakers benefit less from PP because PP increase micro dynamics and those audio systems kill/filter micro dynamics.when i connect PP to those dead systems i hear very small changes in sound. my ears are sensitive to mid/high dynamics and I absolutely use no parallel/series AC filter .PP also has good effect on bass and macro dynamics but it's effect is not huge. i had not an extended low bass system to judge PP but in 3way systems like my Wilson Alexandria the bass was a-little better with PP.

Steverino  
Which fuses do you use? I have heard Furutech is not bad.


www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
09-29-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1796
Post ID: 26343
Reply to: 26342
Furutech mostly
I got a few from some other company years ago but can't remember who they were. I think they were a German company. Again try them first in the speakers and any higher wattage amp. I have used them for years without any problem of safety nor have I heard any issues along those lines. On one component, a preamp, I had to get a fuse one half amp higher than the rating because it tended to blow too easily at the rating, which is the opposite problem to blowing too late.
09-29-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 1797
Post ID: 26345
Reply to: 26343
The fuse cont.
What I'm contemplating is an "audiophile" fuse *before* the PP. I have a dedicated AC line with its own fuse, which I can change easily. Right now there is a good German industrial fuse with silver platted contacts, polished and dielectric grease protected. It's a 10x38mm unit. The idea is to have some control over what PP does sonically to the entire system, e.g. how much of the PP "presentation emphasis", in Romy's words, or sparkle or cold air, is there. The fuse is on the AC line to it should affect the PP and everything down from it. The choice of 10x38mm cartridges is limited to: AHP, German Hifi Tuning Classic Gold (uses pure silver wire), Hifi Tuning Supreme3 (mix of Ag and Cu). I never though I'd go down that road but after changing (and polishing!) fuses in my electronics which has brought about more "fresh air" I'm not so skeptic about the fuses' role in the playback anymore. 


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
09-30-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 1798
Post ID: 26346
Reply to: 26345
Effect of fuses and wire in general
With the talk about fuses, I think I'll chime in to mention that I did several years ago a lot of experimentation with different metals and their effect on sound, which  was based on listening sessions with myself and a group of music lovers and musicians. Any metal that could be obtained as a wire was tested, and the effect was quite noticeable, to the extent that I would consider metal type as a significant design choice. The results I posted quite some time back on this forum for any one who is interested. As a result I replaced all speaker wire, interconnect and wire of internal components, primarily with palladium. There were many surprises like the unpalatable sound of platinum and the excellent sound of tungsten. If it were possible to solder tungsten I might have used it more widely, but as I relegate its use as speaker wire for my subwoofers where it produces excellent results.
It is timely in reference to Romy's recent conjecture about a sense of contentment. While Romy has said it is due to his psychological stress in scrutinizing the components' sound as the maker, I will reserve judgment on any observations any of us can make about our internal subconscious processes. The observation is important, but as to "Why?" -- who knows! 
In this regard, I can make the comparison of tungsten like copper wire that provides a sense of contentment, while palladium is like the real object casting a shadow we see in mixed silver/gold wire.
09-30-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 1799
Post ID: 26351
Reply to: 26346
Wires
Interesting, could you pls post the link?


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-01-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 1800
Post ID: 26354
Reply to: 26351
The different sonic effect of various metals
Jarek,
I think you should be able to find it by searching on the Good Sound Club website.If you cannot, then I can always find my notes and re-post the findings.
Adrian
Page 90 of 96 (1,917 items) Select Pages:  « First ... « 88 89 90 91 92 » ... Last »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  What lives in Symmetric Sound?..  The beginning of our journey is ALWAYS symmetrical...  Audio Discussions  Forum     19  175215  05-28-2004
  »  New  Always check power-line polarity...  The Cost of Knowing...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     11  112297  07-10-2005
  »  New  RAAL “Water Drop” tweeter for Macondo...  Your comment takes me by surprise...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     77  924587  02-16-2007
  »  New  My feelings about new exciting audio products..  Vacuumstate...  Audio Discussions  Forum     25  264743  04-30-2007
  »  New  Musique Concrete horns..  These are now sold as Kornhent products...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     6  108260  06-12-2007
  »  New  Compression drivers and the “clean signal”...  The NEW “Compression drivers and the clean signal”....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  163516  07-12-2007
  »  New  Digi Redux; Drive 1 transport and iDAT-44+ DAC..  Moray James SPDIF!...  Didital Things  Forum     27  230577  09-28-2007
  »  New  Metal domes..  Try the one Lansche is using...  Audio Discussions  Forum     6  78946  11-08-2007
  »  New  The power AC Outlets?..  Where to Pick Up the Gong?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     2  43192  10-31-2008
  »  New  The Avicenna's failure is the great Avicenna success!..  New life for Avicenna...  Audio Discussions  Forum     8  83926  02-03-2009
  »  New  Internet and electricity..  Suboptimal. . ....  Didital Things  Forum     1  29349  01-07-2010
  »  New  Electricity... power strips and ac improvements..  Electricity... power strips and ac improvements...  Audio Discussions  Forum     0  16688  03-30-2010
  »  New  Another example of energy..  Tehran 230v...  Audio Discussions  Forum     1916  9942573  01-29-2011
  »  New  I good spot-light for a turntable?..  Reply...  Analog Playback Forum     15  154661  10-24-2010
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