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03-21-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tequilahut
Posts 9
Joined on 03-22-2020
Post #: 1
Post ID: 25805
Reply to: 25805
DIY Void acoustics Air motion // Azurahorns // Martion Orgon
Hello - pretty new to the goodsoundclub.com. 
Lets say I want to build my own 3-way horn loaded Hifi System. Is there any literature how to design the horns? lets say if I would have some nice 3d-drawings of one already existing 3-way horn loaded system how do I identyfy to design the phase plugs and the oiriface? How can I identify the distance in-between the oiriface and the speaker. I am looking to build something like famous Air motion ( Void) or the Orgon (martion)



Untitled.pngVoid acoustics Air motion.jpeg
03-22-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 2
Post ID: 25806
Reply to: 25805
Hmm, scope out the pool before jumping in?
TH,this is very much NOT a DIY site. It is however probably the most complete collection of „SOUND as it is related to horns“ articles.
I suggest that you check out things here first before asking „the wrong“ questions. The horn systems that you show are „worst case“ (actually abominations) and that means that you are not ready yet.
Romy has an entire section on his Macondo Axioms and that is a good place to start. That is where the foolishness of your posted pictures should become clear.
Try to view a sound system as an expression of your love of music. If you REALLY love music, the investment that you make now will serve that love instead of being an ignorant acceptance of compromise. There is no cookbook that allows someone without experience to create haut cuisine. We need the basic tools, a developed sense of taste and the ability and willingness to experiment.





Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
03-24-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,166
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 3
Post ID: 25807
Reply to: 25805
Start to make mistakes...
 tequilahut wrote:
Lets say I want to build my own 3-way horn loaded Hifi System. Is there any literature how to design the horns? lets say if I would have some nice 3d-drawings of one already existing 3-way horn loaded system how do I identyfy to design the phase plugs and the oiriface? How can I identify the distance in-between the oiriface and the speaker. I am looking to build something like famous Air motion ( Void) or the Orgon (martion)
 
Tequilahut, unfortunately I cannot refer you to any literature how to build horn loaded Hifi System. It just does not exists. Well, there are some more or less good books or articles about horns but none of them convert methodological practice to convert you listening objectives into a concrete horn-loaded loudspeaker. Some of the web sites, including mine, and manufacturing houses who offer some guidance but in a large degree the recommendations, practices and priorities are very different and you would need to have a lot of own experience to be able to distinct the noise to anything that is practical for you. It is not to mention that all people have attitude and to a great degree it clouds this best intentions. This is very much applicable to me. I for instance a “violent” supported of time-alignment for individual channels and this is why I look in the direction of the Air Motion design with a disgust.  You might find some groups online that patronize Air Motion or Orgon and they will be happy to give you some tips. Generally what we all do is adopting all imaginable ideas out there, apply them, observe the result and then navigate ourselves wherever it goes. With development of own acquired taste we compose our own know-how. My experience with the field suggest that unless you discovered the things yourself you do not truly understand it. It least it is how it works for me. I am a very good carpenter for instance and everything I did worked well…. after second or third attempt....

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-28-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 177
Joined on 06-12-2009
Post #: 4
Post ID: 25808
Reply to: 25805
Why the three examples
Tequilahut,
You mention Air Motion system. As an example. How do you know you like the sound -- did you listen to them? Or is the aesthetics of horns that you like and that is forming your selection of examples?
It's good to know that from the start.
03-29-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tequilahut
Posts 9
Joined on 03-22-2020
Post #: 5
Post ID: 25812
Reply to: 25806
Yes I am a fool right now - yes I really love music.
Hi thanks for your testimony.
yes I am defiantly not ready. That is why I am searching for books/media first to read and learn how these things exactly work. oh wow this Roomy cats article is interesting. ... 
03-29-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tequilahut
Posts 9
Joined on 03-22-2020
Post #: 6
Post ID: 25813
Reply to: 25806
Yes I am a fool right now - yes I really love music
 rowuk wrote:
TH,this is very much NOT a DIY site. It is however probably the most complete collection of „SOUND as it is related to horns“ articles.
I suggest that you check out things here first before asking „the wrong“ questions. The horn systems that you show are „worst case“ (actually abominations) and that means that you are not ready yet.
Romy has an entire section on his Macondo Axioms and that is a good place to start. That is where the foolishness of your posted pictures should become clear.
Try to view a sound system as an expression of your love of music. If you REALLY love music, the investment that you make now will serve that love instead of being an ignorant acceptance of compromise. There is no cookbook that allows someone without experience to create haut cuisine. We need the basic tools, a developed sense of taste and the ability and willingness to experiment.




Hi thanks for your testimony.
yes I am defiantly not ready. That is why I am searching for books/media first to read and learn how these things exactly work. oh wow this Roomy cats article is interesting. ... 
03-29-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tequilahut
Posts 9
Joined on 03-22-2020
Post #: 7
Post ID: 25814
Reply to: 25807
Would like to avoid mistakes - I would like to start with math, functions, values, drawings cad fea....
 Romy the Cat wrote:
 tequilahut wrote:
Lets say I want to build my own 3-way horn loaded Hifi System. Is there any literature how to design the horns? lets say if I would have some nice 3d-drawings of one already existing 3-way horn loaded system how do I identyfy to design the phase plugs and the oiriface? How can I identify the distance in-between the oiriface and the speaker. I am looking to build something like famous Air motion ( Void) or the Orgon (martion)
 
Tequilahut, unfortunately I cannot refer you to any literature how to build horn loaded Hifi System. It just does not exists. Well, there are some more or less good books or articles about horns but none of them convert methodological practice to convert you listening objectives into a concrete horn-loaded loudspeaker. Some of the web sites, including mine, and manufacturing houses who offer some guidance but in a large degree the recommendations, practices and priorities are very different and you would need to have a lot of own experience to be able to distinct the noise to anything that is practical for you. It is not to mention that all people have attitude and to a great degree it clouds this best intentions. This is very much applicable to me. I for instance a “violent” supported of time-alignment for individual channels and this is why I look in the direction of the Air Motion design with a disgust.  You might find some groups online that patronize Air Motion or Orgon and they will be happy to give you some tips. Generally what we all do is adopting all imaginable ideas out there, apply them, observe the result and then navigate ourselves wherever it goes. With development of own acquired taste we compose our own know-how. My experience with the field suggest that unless you discovered the things yourself you do not truly understand it. It least it is how it works for me. I am a very good carpenter for instance and everything I did worked well…. after second or third attempt....

thank you! Roomy Cat
ok thats bad. I ve got a Mechincal Engeneering background and I am pretty good in simulations  - not saying that these things are easy but possible (cosmos/ansys and co.) you name it. 
I like the sound of the Air-Motion a lot as long you stay in the Techno gerne... And thats basically the only music that I listen to. However I just love the look of a horn loaded System like that - that will probably sound to you very stupid because look has nothing to do with sound.  To be honest with you I am really with you and think I will need to have multiply attempts since I have something that works and sounds "great" or "great enough" in terms of self-made/diy speaker - if that makes any sense to you. What I fear a lot is building something without having the correct background and starting at zero. My approach would be - like I know it from my job: Calculate, simulate - put that into cad If possible built a trail/test unit, evaluate and recycle that procedure or build the End-product if its already good or good enough.
Let me point the following out: I found a year ago some used Air motions for about 20k Euro. That is a lot of money for speakers. When I do have to build 3-4 different attempts since I have something that works I could be better off just buying them directly from void or any other vendor that does have something like that in their portfolio (costwise). Maybe this whole diy thing is not feasible.  IDK but what are your thoughts....

Screen Shot 2020-03-29 at 00.41.12.png

I started with something in CAD .... 
however your articles are very interesting!! awesome work on your horn system. that is legit!!
03-29-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tequilahut
Posts 9
Joined on 03-22-2020
Post #: 8
Post ID: 25815
Reply to: 25808
Interesting design but also nice sound!
 noviygera wrote:
Tequilahut,
You mention Air Motion system. As an example. How do you know you like the sound -- did you listen to them? Or is the aesthetics of horns that you like and that is forming your selection of examples?
It's good to know that from the start.




Hello thank you!
it is a combination of both. Me personally I listen and produce techno music. I can definitely identify which speakers are good or bad, same for headphones. But I think this metaphor with cooking/taste can point out my level of listen experience: When there is somebody who is a wine tester, this individual can easily point out why this specific wine is good or bad. He/she can easily tell you all different tastes that you can find inside and so on and so forth. I am not a wine tester but I know when a wine simply taste good - of course I cannot list all different taste that you can find in that glass.
I think thats more or less the same with the audiophiles ( no offence)  these people have years of experience to identify 1000 different parameters why a sound is great or not great. But that simply does not apply for me. 
Back to the wine metaphor. I can buy a wine for 30$ which is probably a good wine or which is calming to be a good wine and it taste for me personally good. I could also buy a wine for 60$ but this does not necessary taste any better for me - probably because I am not able to apperciate/value this wine and therefore this adder - however I can very easy identify a bad one for 3$ that is only usable for coocing.

Somehow I think thats the same for me on these Voids. I can totally understand that people that have lots of experience in sound/music don't like them because there are 1000 reasons why they sound bad. 
I listen to techno music and I think the image that these speakers provide in this gerne is very good, but I can also image that there are better systems in the market. 
Lets imagine it would be possible to build these voids or something similar as a diy-project. Whinin this project I can achieve almost a similar frequency response and dynamic response and save some money because I build them. Thats more or less what I am looking for. 
Last point: I really do like the aestetics of these speakers - however I do know that this does not impact the sound. Being that said - I would love to see my DIY Air motions in my Living room being aware that there are better systems but refering to that they are self-made as long they do provide a good image my personally would be very happy.  thats kind of my point of view on this project. 
Maybe I waive on that - without having good literature or anything to start with that whole thing might me a disaster upfront. 
03-29-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 9
Post ID: 25816
Reply to: 25814
What mistakes can we avoid?
TH,
Avoiding mistakes is something that we would like to do. It saves time and money BUT unfortunately the science of building loudspeakers is based on specs, not „Tone“ or „Sound“. Being an engineer can help make beautiful drawings but we all learn that industrial design and engineering often forgets basic rules of sound as they are not taught anywhere.
Romy has posted it many times: we do not hear the errors in frequency response, we hear the characteristics of the drivers /crossovers/room position that caused them. We discover how badly behaved „top rated“ drivers really are and that calculations/simulations report pressure of the soundwave, but not the Sound or Tone.
The speakers that you have posted pictures for have serious design errors in regard to phase alignment and that causes things to happen with the sound that cannot be „fixed“ by engineering effort. The list of things wrong with those specific designs is very long. I suspect that they simply feed the „anti horn“ community as they make the horns do things that only the deaf or sonically blind like.
If you are looking for a design, Romys Macondo is certainly well documented. A commercial offering that applies many of the Macondo Axioms is the Kornhent (formally called La Grande Castine ) https://www.kornhent.bzh/?lang=en. The entire speaker is very low priced for what it is. I am not sure that anyone could DIY build it for less money than it sells for. There are certainly many things that could be „improved“, but that starts with our ears, not hardware.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
03-29-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,166
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 10
Post ID: 25817
Reply to: 25816
It is complicated...
Tequilahut, the question that was posted in this thread was very good one: “What mistakes can we avoid?” Unfortunately, the answer is very complex and to a degree you will not get it now, no disrespect intended. Let me try to begin to explain it to you. 
 
The whole notion that there are some specific mistakes is mistaken. It is not the mistakes of des or action but the mistakes of our own perceptions. I would not call it even as mistakes but rather a lack of developed judgment.  For instance, you like a given solution, whatever would it be. It takes some time, in some cases years to understand that a blockage of your audio development, progress and satisfaction is exactly related to the specific thing the you are liking. How to straight up and speed up this process? I do not know. The method that I recommend is to decertifies you own exposure to different inhalations (means solutions) and let as many people to experiences and to criticize what you are doing. Then very meticulously analyze the data you collected and remove you own ego from the whole ceremony as much as possible. In my view this stream up the ceremony of association of own audio action and own judgment about the auditable consequences. I know it might sound like waxing poetry around the subject that you feel have very narrow application but it is not. 
 
Let me for instance I will give to you very specific and very targeted recommendation of what you must do. There are a few problems with it. First, another person with the similar experience as mine would give you completely opposite recommendations. What mechanism YOU would use to see who it right? Second, my “rightlessness” based upon my preferences and priorities. The preferences and priorities you and me understand differently.  If I say to you “stop listen techno music” you would feel that I infringe upon your freedom of having preferences and priorities. In contrary my recommendation to stay away from techno music is very specific and very well thought design principle for acoustic system. There are different purely engendering principles how to deliver proper listening satisfactions if the target is techno music vs the target is Bach’s Chaconne. It might sound to you like a snobbism but it is not and for me the definition of success in audio is gradual migration of listening preferences from techno to Chaconne. Third, it takes time and many of the judgments that you need to come across is not instant realizations but the results of long thoughts and long accumulated feelings. And the last: the right decisions in audio never from outside and will be only the result of your own self-realization. I or anyone else might zillion times to explain to you one of other subjects but until you rediscover the answer on you own you do not “get” it. 
 
So, if, repeat “if”, what I said about is true then how do you think I should answer the question “What mistakes can we avoid?”

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-29-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,664
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 11
Post ID: 25818
Reply to: 25817
Truth and Method
With a nod (and existential apologies) to H-G Gadamer...

If to take your stated objective (Techno "Music") seriously, it might well be that materializing your image of yourself in possession of the speakers you've shared could fulfill and even satisfy -  at least temporarily -  your current wants. And this is how most of us get started in "hi-fi". But you have just stumbled upon a trove of information with a quite different slant, namely chronicles of the evolution and cross-pollinization of personal awareness and self-awareness as it relates to Music and Sound and the means of facilitating this development. While there is a good deal of rote, electro-mechanical information here, it is inter-mixed and well-seasoned with all sorts of "philosophical" thought, as well. IMO, after almost 60 years at this, one could save a lot of time and money by plowing through this singular Library. At the same time, I realize it's daunting, at best, and more likely it's simply confusing and/or off-putting to those of a more usual audio stripe. Likewise, you may find your questions get deconstructed, and/or re-directed, or simply ignored. The best advise I can give you is to get back after you read and mull over several hundred pages, at least. If that doesn't set a spark, I'm betting you'll still save Time.


Best regards,
Paul S
04-02-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 177
Joined on 06-12-2009
Post #: 12
Post ID: 25819
Reply to: 25805
What mistakes to avoid when choosing a wife...
You can get all the advice from the experts but you might as well start with something.
But at least with pro sound like VOID, Funktion One, or Meyer Sound, you can rent the system, listen to it for a while and begin to dissect what it is you like about the sound and not like.
Then you start to build a system with a concept of "your sound", one step at a time. What's your email? I can share some of my findings, if that's worth anything.
04-02-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tequilahut
Posts 9
Joined on 03-22-2020
Post #: 13
Post ID: 25820
Reply to: 25819
Email-- don't know how to DM
 noviygera wrote:
You can get all the advice from the experts but you might as well start with something.
But at least with pro sound like VOID, Funktion One, or Meyer Sound, you can rent the system, listen to it for a while and begin to dissect what it is you like about the sound and not like.
Then you start to build a system with a concept of "your sound", one step at a time. What's your email? I can share some of my findings, if that's worth anything.

Thank you!!
04-05-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tequilahut
Posts 9
Joined on 03-22-2020
Post #: 14
Post ID: 25824
Reply to: 25819
Moved the furniture in CAD...
 noviygera wrote:
You can get all the advice from the experts but you might as well start with something.
But at least with pro sound like VOID, Funktion One, or Meyer Sound, you can rent the system, listen to it for a while and begin to dissect what it is you like about the sound and not like.
Then you start to build a system with a concept of "your sound", one step at a time. What's your email? I can share some of my findings, if that's worth anything.

So I started yesterday with the CAD and mooving the furniture in CAD just to know how big this thing will be... nothing based on scienttif numbers or anything just as a reference. Now I need kind of the physics / equations to make it a working design. somehow.
Just design wise that would something be I would like to build.
1x 15  1x12 1x8 1x1,5 
inch

I have no idea how to design the phase plug and the oirifaces and the compression zone... and so on and so furth... so at the moment there are maaaaany question marks... obviously

btw noviygera. I haven't got anything yet. have you sent something?




04-06-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,166
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 15
Post ID: 25825
Reply to: 25824
The cargo cult?
Tequilahut, you might google the definition of “cargo cult”, this is exactly what you are proposing, no offence intended. You are trying to make something that YOU think looks like “horns” but in reality what you proposing are sonic pipes. This brings back the question that somebody have asked at the beginning of the thread: why you decided to dive into the horn topology to begin with? If you like a large industrial installations that produce some kind of sound then why do you care how your mastodon would comply with any sensible logic of loudspeakers design? If you have objective of to get very specific sonic result then again, the same questions why the horns? I do not mean to be cryptic and trust me I can write 300 pages criticizing of what you are proposing. The problem is that any critiques might be understood in context of own practices, without having you own experience how who would you recognize if my critiques are not empty and irrelevant noise?

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-17-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tequilahut
Posts 9
Joined on 03-22-2020
Post #: 16
Post ID: 27209
Reply to: 25825
Delete this thread
Hello how can I delete this entire thread? I don't want it to be online
08-18-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,166
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 17
Post ID: 27210
Reply to: 27209
I do not deleted posts
I am sorry, tequilahut, I would rather not. This is not your thread but the thread that was formed by multiple people, it would not be fair. I respect you desire not to be online but there is no personally identifiable information here, so you are all set.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-21-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tequilahut
Posts 9
Joined on 03-22-2020
Post #: 18
Post ID: 27218
Reply to: 27210
Delete at least something
I understand this.
In post nr 25820 you can find personal information can you please delete it or let me edit it — it does not change anything.
Also the pictures in 25824 are showing up on Pinterest. So could you delete the pictures? Nobody answered to this anyway and were never part of the given Monologs. 
08-21-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,166
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 19
Post ID: 27219
Reply to: 27218
Done
tequilahut, your email and you images are deleted from the posts you requested. Please use email to deal with the problems like this next time.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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