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07-21-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1341
Post ID: 21110
Reply to: 21108
Yes, well worth it in my view
fiogf49gjkf0d
 drdna wrote:
Now fully five years after the original PP2000 was in my system, then subsequently stopped working and was sent back for repairs to the manufacturer. An unfortunate series of events involving the Chinese subcontractor resulted in the company contracting severely, and my original unit was lost. Numerous excuses were made, but eventually the APS company made it back on their feet.

Almost beyond belief after such a long time, and thanks to those here who encouraged APS to "do the right thing" and send me a replacement unit; finally it has arrived! I waited to report on this until the unit was actually physically in my possession...

But now it is here. APS sent me a PP3000 Plus unit including the Power Pack and Furutech FPX-R receptacles. After plugging it in and letting it settle for a few days, I have been listening to it this weekend. The sound is as I remember it. It is frankly impossible to make a direct comparison to the PP2000 as it has been such a long time, but all my original remarks apply. The only thing missing is the buzzing hum which plagued my first unit. This unit is absolutely silent in operation, leading perhaps credence to my original suspicion that the original buzzing was due to a manufacturing defect.

Now it is totally silent and the Sound is coming through gloriously again. More commentary to come in a while...

Worth the wait.

Hm, might it be that 2014 is the year? A few years after 1999 I still was waiting that anytime my completely pre-paid new Micro arrived from Japan, perhaps 2014 is the year when al, the thing come together?

Anyhow, I can't say anything besides Bravo PurePower. I have no idea why they delayed it and I have no idea why they sent it, however I would like to point out that as a result you got much more advanced, sophisticated ( and more expensive) regenerator then you original PP2000 was. I gig heard from unwelcomed correspondences that PP did some further changes since I got my unit, so only Got know how of my and your unit deliver the same sound. Let presume that it is and if so then you shall be very lucky. My works flawlessly sine insertion and sound great. Find the phase on which it sound better, even if you have a dedicated line. In US we have two sides of 220V, each of them  120V. They are not truly two phase but rather side A and B of the same 120V line and they do sound distinctly different. Also, be advised that presence of the other switching devises in your let say side A do adversely impact of the sound of your new PP3000.

In the end I would like to note that as I always said those "numerous excuses" and reasonable delays are normal "modus operandi" from Pure Power if they have something not fluent on their side. As I told some people get turned off by it, I have some of my good friends do not want to hear about. I can't not blame them and I do feel what they feel. However, if to pass on that notion that somebody shall comply with your expectation and humiliate own consumer ego then there is a chance that you get a well working PP3000 as a result. You said that it "Worth the wait", I have been feeling the very same since 2006-2007, since I hear the very first PP1050 unit and said: there is something very worthy in it. That pursuit to get this " very worthy" did drive me across all tribulation with PP, which I still do feel is a spectacular product, even conspiring the "strangeness" of the company.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-21-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1342
Post ID: 21174
Reply to: 2931
PP3000+ and ... the alien switching forces.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have written in past that for some mystery reasons my PP3000+, and I presume all other PP3000+, do adversely affected by switching power supplies in the feeding line. I have PP3000+ and older PP3000 and both of them works wonderfully, one on main listening room and another in opera room. However, if they work at the SAME time then they do compromise each other and sound become very auditably brighter. That is what I am saying for a while but recently I discover something more.

The presence of any switching PS on the same line where my PP3000+ sits does contribute negatively to sound. That is despite that my PP3000+ connected to a dedicated line, the switching PS on the same half of 220V still reaches PP somehow. The degree is much less but auditable. For instance I use powerful portable workstation Lenovo laptops, the W series , and they have big 160W power supplies. I usually do not that I plug them and did not file then they affect sound. However, a few days back I was listening my Wagenseil's quartets for low strings and suddenly felt that sound is unreasonably muddy and bright at the same time. In those quartets viola plays upper octave lead but it had no typical for viola dark sound but rather it was too cheerful. I was walking around the playback, scratching my back and was not able to figure out what was going on. Then I felt that sound become softer and viola got darker. What was going on I was wondering...

I sat to my chair, took my laptop to write some email and then it hit me: the laptop's PS was very hot. The point is that I left the laptop on the deck a day before and the big 9-cell battery was almost completely discharged. As I plug the laptop to PS the charger detected the ultra low impedance of discharged butter and begin rush a lot of current across PS, presumably injecting a lot of switching supply noise to the mains. Well I tested the theory. I have discharged another battery and did again the experiment. Sure, it was clearly auditable from 5% of battery change to approximately 15-20% and after which I did not think I felt any difference.

I have absolutely no explanation of the phenomena as PP3000+ flats the things to DC not to mention it dissecting main by 20kHz of own switching sampling rate. Anyhow, watch any switching PS in the line where your PP install. The effect might be minor but it is there.

Rgs,
Romy teh Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-21-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 351
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 1343
Post ID: 21175
Reply to: 21174
AC / DC but not the band
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have not found the PPs to completely isolate under many situations although they even out sonics across the day fairly well. The PP is far more steady when hooked into my small tubed bedroom system than the main system, the small TV HT system or the computer based headphone system. . There are fluctuations in sonics in the main and HT systems even though the PP is running well under its rated capacity. (The TV is not even on the PP.) Typically the problem lasts for an hour or two before dissipating. Trying to chain a similar device such as a turntable controller produces worse sound in both compared to separating them. 
08-21-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Lx_
France
Posts 33
Joined on 12-06-2009

Post #: 1344
Post ID: 21176
Reply to: 21174
Not surprised
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hello Romy,

I am not surprised by your report, since I have experienced this with my PP2000. I must have shared this here already but here goes some of it. I can hear many things behind the PP, the amount depending on the equipment. Switching PSs are indeed quite noisy. I can remember being horrified when I discovered how much garbage a Dell PS was injecting into the mains and through the PP. At the time I think you were incriminating a faulty PP unit and/or installation. Maybe the issue is greater for non-US units, one of which I have (EU). But since you now acknowledge the issue at your place, this factor may be ruled out (though by how much I do not know). We must also take into account that you have a newer unit, and only PP people know what impact this has regarding sensitivity to AC mains (or at least we wish they do).

Anyway I have been disconnecting as many devices as is convenient (though not including a switching PS, the fridge is quite noisy too but I prefer getting some noise than salmonella or other nice bacteria) for several years. In the end, the best solution would be to unplug the PP from mains altogether (thereby getting rid of its internal charging circuit that does its own radiating), though I would need to hook several additional batteries to be able to enjoy a few hours of continuous (ecstatic) listening.

Lx_
08-22-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1345
Post ID: 21177
Reply to: 21176
That all about the residual difference.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Lx_, it is so and not. I never made a secret that PP has some sensitivity to line before it but for the people who do not use it the degree of the comment would not be possible to understand. Even for PP the relative degree of the comments like my comment above would be not always clear.
A PP unit, if it works properly, for sure does superbly positive impact to sound but there is a twist in this statement, I have written about it in past. 

You see, we plug PP that presumably "cleans" electricity and we feel that the improvement that we get come because the electricity was made better, It very much might be so but it also possible that improving of electricity was only a contributive factor. PP might precondition PS of electronics with own "switching power"  that make electronics to sound better regardless of quality of electricity. For sure it does impacts the quality electricity but I have hard time to say what percentage of PP beauty is responsible for it.

I think what would be very interesting to experiment is to feed PP with some kind of other power devise. I did experimented with 3-5kW isolation transformers and it was not good - the all kill lower octave - ironically the fact of killing LF did go over the PP. I was trying the capacitor-base noise suppresser before PP and it also did not work well - Sound become to remind me a wet dog. I did not try some of those super expensive caps that reportedly could work on AC without damaging sound but I am not ready to pay $5K juts for an experiment.

I think as people use PP the concept of "open source" would pay off soon or later somebody find some kind of PP preconditioned that would even further stabilize the power lines. For sure PP is a "giant leap of mankind" into the word of power treatment of playback but now we the PP users need to learn how to ride the lunar rower on the moon's dust...

BTW, I very much disagree with you about your ideas of several additional batteries and running PP away from mains. That is conceptually a white flag not to mention the low practicality of the ideas. If you insist to use batteries then you do not need any PP, the step down transformers  in your electronics, the rectification, filtration and many other things.  Run you army of batteries directly to your operating voltages and you would be all set. Again, I do not think that people who are in that camp should even consider to use AC treatment devises like PP.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-22-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Lx_
France
Posts 33
Joined on 12-06-2009

Post #: 1346
Post ID: 21178
Reply to: 21177
Quite satisfied as it is now
fiogf49gjkf0d
You are correct that running everything off DC would be a much better solution. Alas, this is not what is largely available and we have to use AC as input to our components, unless one is willing to heavily (if not with difficulty) modify each and every device in the system (or go the route of having them custom made). Also, DC mains is not as well-chartered territory and I am sure it would bring its own issues. Anyway for me this is more than what I am willing to concede. OTOH since I already have a PP, running it off batteries seems far from insurmountable, and the recollection I have of battery mode is very attractive. But as you say this is all about relativity (even though I did not mention it since I was addressing you directly, I strongly agree that the differences we are talking about are details compared to the improvement you get when switching over to PP -- but we are here to go beyond this evidence and discuss those nuances), and until now I have made do without it.
09-11-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 351
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 1347
Post ID: 21212
Reply to: 21178
Power Inspired ac regenerators
fiogf49gjkf0d
Are any of the Euro or Australian Forum members familiar with the Power Inspired AC Regenerators. Formerly they only had a small 500 W double conversion unit but now they added a 1500W unit. They seem to be targeting it for audio installations at least in part as they emphasize low noise. Below is a description of one of their Australian configured units:

Power Inspired's AG1500 AC ReGenerator is a true online double conversion system providing the highest degrees of power protection, with a stable unwavering high quality power waveform for sensitive and critical loads.

Unlike other online units the AG1500 is extremely quiet making it suitable for where high quality power is required but without the noise, and unlike other systems the bypass is disabled by default ensuring that raw mains power never reaches your equipment, only clean pure power at all times.

The AG1500 has a manual variable speed fan which allows the user to turn the fan speed to minimum when the unit will be used for only momentary bursts of power so as to minimise any audible distractions.

For UPS support, battery pack B2U-96-9 can be added, although not required for AC ReGeneration and power conditioning.

This item is fitted with a AUSTRALIAN 15A Socket Outlet


09-12-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1348
Post ID: 21213
Reply to: 21212
No bypass as a virtue? Sounds stupid to me.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 steverino wrote:
Unlike other online units the AG1500 is extremely quiet making it suitable for where high quality power is required but without the noise, and unlike other systems the bypass is disabled by default ensuring that raw mains power never reaches your equipment, only clean pure power at all times.

 
Ok, this is Australian version of PP, a commercial double-conversion UPS that they accommodated for audio use. Looks good, I wish they put some audio credentials in there to show off that they are capable to deal with audio objectives.
 
One comment that I would like to make: the fact that they disabled bypass is not a huge accomplishment but rather a stupidity in my view. 1.5kW is very low power and it is very frequently a playback would suck more in peak. So with bypass not being in picture what the unit does then? 1500W is 6.8A at 220V. Any powerful SS amp, or start up saturation of chokes of a tube SET will blow 6.8A with easy. So, what do they do then? Fire a fuse or flow the output transistors? OK.  According to them to feed the load with a few periods of high infiltrated high current is bad but to turn unit off what it demands more current is good? Well, to me it is not smart and juts an indication that they do not have, perhaps yet, any practical experience with real world of playback systems.
 
Rgs, Romy


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-12-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #: 1349
Post ID: 21214
Reply to: 21213
Power inspired direct experience
fiogf49gjkf0d
It is a UK company, and Romy has unknowingly heard the AG1500 unit in my system (to the extent to which the rest of it makes it audible). I use it to drive a full range Melquiades SET, a DAC, and an FM tuner. It is carefully made, internally, and has worked perfectly fine for the past 12 months or so. I do not have major electricity noise, and so the effects were never dramatic, but I really do not recall what it was like without it. There is no magnetostriction noise and the fans are very quiet (and user replaceable).      
09-13-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 351
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 1350
Post ID: 21215
Reply to: 21214
Thanks for the info
fiogf49gjkf0d
Power Inspired seemed to be somewhat new to the audio field although it's quite possible that they were making related products for industrial customers. In my own market survey some months ago I found  4 credible US manufacturers of double conversion UPS devices. The one problem common to all was the noise level of the operating fan. I guess they are typically stuck in electrical closets or other hot rooms with high levels of ambient noise so no one is bothered by it. People trying to use them at home or in typical offices were the ones who complained of the noise. Power Inspired seems to have solved that issue I gather from Decoud's experience. They had a low power 500W model a while ago but seemed to have added the 1500W model more recently. I don't know when Decoud got his of course. They do not have a US compatible model although I guess they could modify it. While Romy might find 1500W puny, I think most would find it more than powerful enough. I know I barely get to 25% on the 1050 even on the main system.
09-13-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #: 1351
Post ID: 21217
Reply to: 21215
Audiofication
fiogf49gjkf0d
The audio product is peripheral to their main business and it is essentially the same as their standard double conversion ups. They say they have done more than change the fans to quiet, but they are short on specifics. Then again the markup is much smaller than for PP, and they are clearly well made machines, or at least mine was when I bought it in april 2013. In the interim they seem to have noticed they are underselling it, and have increased the price from £500 to £700.
09-13-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 351
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 1352
Post ID: 21218
Reply to: 21217
Fits the pattern
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes it always makes sense to raise the prices for the audiofools. When I did the market survey the first thing that jumped out at me was the major reduction in prices of the commercial vendors vs the audio vendors of double conversion devices. Typically less expensive by a factor of 2 or 3 for a given power level.
09-24-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
bonzo75
London
Posts 4
Joined on 09-25-2014

Post #: 1353
Post ID: 21231
Reply to: 21217
Decoud
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi decoud, 
I live on Earl's Court Road, and saw on the website that you lived in Kensington and have Danley's. I normally hang out on the Wigwam and PFM, and I used to own Martin Logans. I am a horn fan, but the good horns I like are too expensive - Cessaro Liszt, Tune Audio Anima, JBL K2. Therefore I wanted to look at Danleys, and smaller horns. Never knew there was one in the neighbourhood. Please let me know if I can drop by for a quick listen. My email is on my profile. 
Ked


 decoud wrote:
The audio product is peripheral to their main business and it is essentially the same as their standard double conversion ups. They say they have done more than change the fans to quiet, but they are short on specifics. Then again the markup is much smaller than for PP, and they are clearly well made machines, or at least mine was when I bought it in april 2013. In the interim they seem to have noticed they are underselling it, and have increased the price from £500 to £700.
10-02-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1354
Post ID: 21246
Reply to: 2931
We are all screwed.
fiogf49gjkf0d
A few days back I went to a meeting of Boston Audio Society where Dr. Wacks read lecture about electricity industry tendencies and it's transformation toward smart grid. It is not that I have any interest in smart grid but I was curios to ask Dr. Wacks a few questions about electricity quality that I have no answers. Dr. Wacks is for sure is well credentialed person:
 
http://www.kenwacks.com/
 
…it was not far and I figured: why not? The Boston Audio Society is a tricky place to be. They are" idiots with diplomas", have incredibly low audio capacity and frankly their talks make me want to puke after 15 seconds.
 
Dr. Wacks read his presentation that was pretty much irrelevant to the subjects of audio. The questions about electricity and audio he did not even understood. What kind of piss me off that he did not even make an effort to understand the subject and this people is the one who is at the wheel of the electrical industry. Well, we in audio for sure are screwed...
 
The most memorable even of the entire evening was some kind of older gentlemen come to me and comforted me before I leave. He said that I shall not be worry about electricity as if I replace my PS caps from electrolytic to paper then I will not be frustrated with  electricity any longer. How little they knew what I was thinking at that time, but I did think that it would be nice if the roof of the building would collapse and all of those idiots would never upon their mouths about audio again.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-02-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 1355
Post ID: 21248
Reply to: 21246
"Networking Home Appliances"???
fiogf49gjkf0d
So, how did Dr. Wacks wind up at the Boston Audio Society meeting if he, in fact, has no idea of electricity's impact on sound? I thought the idea of "electrical interference" on a wide range of "appliances" was common knowledge. Certainly hospitals and laboratories, all sorts of "scientific" and manufacturing enterprises are "concerned" about the quality as well as the quantity of their electricity. Sure, it would be too much to expect "others" to relate "electrical interference" to "musical results"; but it still seems reasonable to expect an expert like Dr. Wacks to be conversant on the general topic of the "quality" of the electricity as it relates to sound, especially given that he was "guest speaker" at the BAS meeting in the first place.

Perhaps there is something to be gleaned from his talk, after all. What did he actually say?


Paul S
10-02-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 351
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 1356
Post ID: 21249
Reply to: 21248
What is the mystery?
fiogf49gjkf0d
There have been all kinds of articles on the smart grid for some years now. There is no dispute that digital monitoring devices dump noise into the line intermittently. Romy has graphed apparent bursts of grid noise on this site. It is also not a secret that devices are being built for online interactivity - even AC regenerators. So there is no doubt that there are issues but little evidence that they can bypass double conversion devices to any significant degree at this point. Per Romy's question I think we have to hope that the scientific community will complain if any new issues arise because it is quite certain the power companies will pay zero attention to the complaints of audiophiles.
10-02-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rickmcinnis
Posts 59
Joined on 10-18-2010

Post #: 1357
Post ID: 21250
Reply to: 21249
So you wonder why they invited him to the meeting?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Makes no sense to me.  
But to the real reason for my post - 

Has anyone tried a home based generator?
Not one powered by an internal combustion engine.  An electric motor would be far quieter!
If fact, best of all would be to get Romy's little guy on a treadmill attached to the generator's shaft!!!  That guy never runs out of energy.  (how does he do it?)
Not that I have looked into it, and accepting the fact it would NOT be the most efficient way to solve the problem but it seems a generator of a size sufficient to run your system is the best way to eliminate the problem.  I am sure there would be waste in transducing.
Something like this, - http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_8795_8795?utm_source=Natural&utm_medium=Covario&utm_campaign=Generators -  though I would never buy anything from these people (again) but you get the idea.  Get an electrical motor to spin the shaft and I would think you would get as clean an AC current as you can get.  Might require a few mods here and there, wire and connections type things. My first concern would be how quiet the motor would be - who cares what it throws into the powerline now?
It could not cost more than all of those conditioners which strike me as akin to trying to put Humpty Dumpty back together again.  Why not start with something reasonably good to begin with?
10-02-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1358
Post ID: 21251
Reply to: 21249
MIT version of Woe from Wit
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, there is no question that power companies pay zero attention to the complaints of audiophiles, neither shall they. The power companies are in pusses to sell power and unhappiness of a done or so fringe consumer is understandably not their concern. However, the guy who came on the meeting was not the "power company". He was an individual who come to this absurd meeting after his work and spent 3 hours of his life, with being paid. It is not doubts in my mind that he has absolutely no idea about my subsets and I told him that the relation between measurable in electricity and auditable is a very tricky, not very much researched and no one have knowledge in there. All that I was hoping to raise a few questions and let his expertise to comment on them. The guy instead of demonstrating of curiosity and trying to pitch some idea tuned to a complete Moron and insisted that if he does not know about the problem then the whole notion does not exist. He did mention 234 time that he was on the board of 345 power companies and wrote 3245 papers. I am sure that he might be useful for power companies to invent new methods to harass power consumers (that is why this "professor" in fact exists) but for the advance of my subject he is absolutely worthless. The way how I recognize it was not the industry failure but the failure of one industry person to demonstrate a interest outside own little pathetic zone of camphor. Almost like in the Griboyedov's comedy "Woe from Wit"


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-02-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #: 1359
Post ID: 21252
Reply to: 21251
What ever happened to your Generator
fiogf49gjkf0d
Post #: 580
Post ID: 14729
Reply to: 14523
OK, I have moved my motor-generator to the backward in a cozy location under the deck, wrapped it in tarp and left it there in “preserved” mode. Sometime in future I will return to this idea
10-02-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1360
Post ID: 21253
Reply to: 21252
No motor-generator for now
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Jorge wrote:
Post #: 580
Post ID: 14729
Reply to: 14523
OK, I have moved my motor-generator to the backward in a cozy location under the deck, wrapped it in tarp and left it there in “preserved” mode. Sometime in future I will return to this idea
Nothing is happening with my motor-generator. It still there, wrapped it in tarp. The EASE and RELIABILITY of Pure Power defeated my desire to work with the motor-generator tandem.  I am not audio-frustrated nowadays with electricity sound, even if it looks like I do for the people who do not know closer. However, I am quite intellectually frustrated with mystery of relationship  between electricity quality and sound 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  »  New  What lives in Symmetric Sound?..  The beginning of our journey is ALWAYS symmetrical...  Audio Discussions  Forum     19  167160  05-28-2004
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  »  New  Metal domes..  Try the one Lansche is using...  Audio Discussions  Forum     6  75761  11-08-2007
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  »  New  The Avicenna's failure is the great Avicenna success!..  New life for Avicenna...  Audio Discussions  Forum     8  80533  02-03-2009
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