GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site

02-17-2013

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AlexBerger
Israel, Beer Sheva
Posts 20
Joined on 04-19-2010

Post #:	241
Post ID:	19014
Reply to:	18788

Shunt regulation

Does anybody try to change shunt regulators OA2 to 15K Ohm resistor?
I heard from number of people that OA2 is too noisy for phonostage.
For example, in this article wrote about this http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/tweak_ai_p2_phono_mod_01.shtml

02-17-2013

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	242
Post ID:	19015
Reply to:	19014

Application dependent

AlexBerger wrote:

I heard from number of people that OA2 is too noisy for phonostage.
For example, in this article wrote about this http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/tweak_ai_p2_phono_mod_01.shtml

Those type of statements make no sense detached from the context. Look at the PS of your 834RtC. What do you see after the shunt?
A lot of info on gas tubes and their noise can be found in Mark Kelly's posts/writing, also Lyn Olson investigated them.

Cheers,
Jarek
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03-21-2013

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	243
Post ID:	19113
Reply to:	15615

Silvercore SUT's ?

I have an anal fantasy of a full silver path from the cart to the grid of the input stage.
This brings me to finding an ambitious silver wound SUT. There is Slagle who can make it,
but I'm inclined towards amorphous/nanocrystaline core, so there is Lundahl LL1941Ag, I'm also
persuading Tribute Pieter to wind me a pair, but I've found this German company:

http://t.silvercore.de/index.php?phono

Does anyone have any experience with their silver SUT's?
I've been offered two "nacked" units: mc25 for 440Eu/pair and mc25pro for a whooping 2500Eu/pair.
When asked where does such a huge price difference come from, the guy did not reply.

Cheers,
N-set

Cheers,
Jarek
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03-21-2013

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	244
Post ID:	19114
Reply to:	19113

It migh be an interesting company.

I never hear them and never will as I have no quest for any better SPU but they might do something worth attention. No one knows until you try. They certainly have nothing at their website that set expectation high but it does not mean anything. I generally against pure silver-winded transformers but I have hear one that was pure silver and it was well sounding, at least in context of the playback where I heard it. BTW, the shielding that the German guys use looks to me a bit inadequate

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

03-21-2013

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	245
Post ID:	19118
Reply to:	19114

Amo/silver

Romy the Cat wrote:
I generally against pure silver-winded transformers ...

Romy would you care to elaborate on that a bit? In particular have you hear amorphous/silver combination?

I've never heard a silver SUT myself, or actually any other serious SUT than my own Tribute,
hence my curiosity. Some scattered opinions here and there
(for example of Chris V: http://hifiheroin.blogspot.com/2012/09/guest-post-shines-pays-clippy-visit.html )
suggest amorphous core + silver windings may have a potential to blend the oposites into a harmony,
which for me personaly is an intellectually atractive method to proceed.
But you never know unless you try...

On Silvercore I've found little feedback, and all of it on the typical completely neanderthalic level, hence my question.

Cheers,
N-set

Cheers,
Jarek
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03-21-2013

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	246
Post ID:	19124
Reply to:	19118

From a Satisfied User of a Ready-made Item

My Ortofon T3000 SUT is wound with "20-9s" silver (or some such shit) over some sort of super-duper core, all wrapped in Mu metal. Since it is designed from scratch to partner with the Ortofon MC3000 II cartridge I use, I would really hope it "works well" in that application; and it does. I have yet to re-build my multi-metal Phono-version IC (Cu and Ag wire, and "trailing" shields), but I can say there is nothing about silver for this application that I do not like. I can say that I have preferred - overall - the multi-metal ICs to pure silver. I can't say how the "12-9s" Cu coil windings of the cartridge coils affect the resultant "mix" I get.

I think with the SUT the "dynamic" loading the cartridge "sees" may swamp the choice of wire metal. Once the loading is dialed in, silver might be nice. Whether it's "worth the money", I could not say.

Best regards,
Paul S

03-21-2013

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	247
Post ID:	19127
Reply to:	19124

Silver considerations

Paul, thank you for your input!

Paul S wrote:

I think with the SUT the "dynamic" loading the cartridge "sees" may swamp the choice of wire metal. Once the loading is dialed in, silver might be nice.

Yes Paul, absolutely agree--the electrical parameters must be dialed in first. What I'd see ideally is a SUT custom designed
for the cart--FR7f. The idea of silve comes loosely from the fact that the Bavarian seller was comparing my cart with his
own special FR7 with silver coils and reported a slightly more, as he has put it "soul", to the Sound. This is of course a very
shitty "motivation", as this was a 2nd hand opinion of someone whose system I do not know and moreover
a cart's coil and a SUT (ass-u-ming all other factors equal) are very different coils, but...who knows...

Slagle can make a custom silver SUT but he uses mumetal. From the reports in the net (no 1st hand exp. on my side),
mumetal is said to be more "relaxed", amo more "clear, fast" to put it simplistically. I'm more on the "clear" side...at least in my
imagination. I also remember talking with a magnetic metallurgist, who claimed cobalt amo and nanocrystalines are the
most linear magnetics known and he laughed at mumetal...well, weather this guarantees anything is of course disputable,
but an intellectual picture has formed in my mind: a clean, fast, "harder reading" core + supposedly "detaily relaxed" silver,
then luxuriously soft-but-fast EAR834RtC...I'd like to check it.

The Silvercore guy replied that his 1000Eu/piece more expensive SUT uses bigger core and more silver...I know the prices of
amo/nanocores, I still have an insanely huge Tribute prototypes, I also know how much Pieter pays for his large cores
and I can't justify +1000Eu/trannie at the moment. Let's hope I'm able to convince Pieter to wind in silver....

Another option is a silver Lundahl LL1941Ag.

Cheers,
N-set

Cheers,
Jarek
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03-21-2013

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	248
Post ID:	19129
Reply to:	19127

Again With the Amo

The good thing about Amo cores is, they are not just "clear" and/or "fast", but they also create/allow a lot of Music information that is very well integrated, and it is consistent, whatever is happening, incuding remarkably consistent dynamics, chromae, texture, etc., etc. The silver wire "seems clear" in a way that is very seductive, and it is very "smooth". The "seductive clarity", however, does not necessarily mean it is actually more clear in terms of any sort of Musical articulation I could name. Again, I do like it...

Best regards,
Paul S

03-21-2013

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	249
Post ID:	19131
Reply to:	19129

Silver path

Paul, thanks again for a nice input--sounds for me indeed seductive (well, I'm anyway +/- "self-convinced" to give a silver/amo a try).
Do you use silver wire also in the tonearm? What I have in mind is a 2nd, all silver path for the 834, which would go like that:

FR7f->Audio Note UK silver tonearm wire -> some silver phono cable ->amo/silver SUT -> Shallco switch (with silver-on-copper contacts), silver
wiring in my 834 to the input tube's grid.

RCA plugs/sockets are Au-on-Cu Vampire. Interconect: either a i) DIY with a coninous run of the AN wire from my SME3012 cart socket
to RCA plugs at the 834's end (omitting 3012's RCA sockets at the base) or
ii) something like Audioquest leopard with battery biased dielectric, again based on the net rumors it gets a solid good feedback.

Cheers,
Jarek
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03-21-2013

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	250
Post ID:	19132
Reply to:	19118

The “secret” will be never revealed...

N-set wrote:
Romy would you care to elaborate on that a bit? In particular have you hear amorphous/silver combination?

Nope I never had it and even f I did it would be difficult to generalize anything. I had only once a fully silver OPT, it was the top of the line Japanese AN. With the AN cartridge it did very well. I have my Expressive Technology SU2 transformer with me and I was trying to use it instead of that silver AN and I I mush preferred the AN. Against it was in context of ultra low impedance AN cartridge (<.5R), with AN phonostage and with very poor from my point of view single driver speakers. Whatever it was the analog front end was not the weakest element in there and the SUT did very well. I do not wind transformers and I have no idea what makes SUT good. The guy who did my Expressive Technology SU2 transformer after he heard my pontifications the silver is bad told me that there is some silver in my transformer. He did not go into details and I think as now the “secret” will be never revealed.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

03-22-2013

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	251
Post ID:	19134
Reply to:	19131

The Path of Least Resistance

N-set, I've never tried to make a "silver path". I have thought about Ag arm wire but I have not tried it. My cartridge coil and tonearm both use "high-purity" Cu wire, and the Cu arm wire feeds directly to the Ag wound SUT, which I use not because it is silver but because "it matches the cartridge" electrically. From the SUT to the phono stage I presently use Placette shielded cable by "default", have no idea what it's made of, it just "worked" when other shielded cable I had on hand was foggy and clog-y by comparison. I do have materials on hand and some soldering already done for mixed metal (Ag/Cu, with Ag WBT connectors) IC for this run. I presently use short, mixed Cu/Ag (with Ag WBT connectors) IC from the phono stage to the TAP TVC. I use Litz braided "pure" Cu IC to my amps and for speaker cables (the IC has "your" Vampire Cu connectors...). Like I detailed in the Cable Thread, I have tried both solid Ag and solid Cu for the IC run where I now use mixed metal, but I prefer the mixed metal, and I will eventually try more of it. I have not had good luck with silver-plated copper, but some people insist that's because I tried the wrong stuff. I don't lose sleep over it.

If you can eliminate the extra connectors at the base of the tonearm, I think this is a good thing to do.

Best regards,
Paul S

03-22-2013

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	252
Post ID:	19135
Reply to:	19134

(Not so) silver path con'ed

Thank you for the input guys.

Paul, I hate those audiopedofile(tm) talks about connectors, but unfortunately I must go through it:
there is possibly one non-kosher element in my planned Ag path: Au-on-Cu Vampire, connectors soldered to silver cables.
Do you have any experience with such a combination in your phono context? Ideally I'd use pure silver
RCA's but i) Ag WBT's are prohibitively priced and the sockets do not appeal to me with the metal strip over a plastic(???)
ii) there are Ag Eichmann plugs reasonably priced but no matching Ag sockets?(their sockets are Au plated Cu, so used with their own
plugs gives Ag-Au-Cu conatct..."too many metals, Mozart!"). Prehaps there is a full Ag RCA-RCA set at reasonable $$$ or perhpas mixing metals
and a Au-Cu interruption in a phono silver path is good?

Cheers,
N-set

Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE

03-22-2013

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Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #:	253
Post ID:	19136
Reply to:	19135

Foil

I have played around with foil for some time and always loved the sound of it. It seems how thin the foil is helps to get a better body of the sound. The sound is better "time aligned" supposedly and it really sounds like it. I tried WBT connectors also against the Insound house mix of thin metal and maple wood and difference is notable.
Shouldnt your SUT be placed inside the Phono stage directly? that is a real advantage.

03-22-2013

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	254
Post ID:	19137
Reply to:	19135

Amalgamated Phono Stage

N-set, you will never know how your phono stage sounds with the "silver path" until you try it. FYI, the WBT Next-Gen M/F work well --- with each other, but less well, mechanically, with the Vampire sockets; I don't know why yet. The Vampire seem to work well mechanically with other brands I've tried them with. I have not tried the Eichmann, but I will do so in the near future. It seems stupid to me that they do not make a Ag socket. No surprise, my experiments suggest that the Ag connectors "improve" the "silver qualities" of the Ag wire, versus the "sputtered" Au-over-Cu connectors with Ag wire. Oddly, I get different results between Cu wire "sistering" versus Cu connectors used along with the Ag wire IC.

Another thing for you to stress about is solder. "Silver" solder (like the WBT) is hardy silver, and in any case I do not know how to weld with pure silver, at least not without ruining the parts, setting everything on fire. Because of the inevitable "breaks" between metals, it almost seems like each metal "contributes its own sound" to the amalgam. Basically, only trial and error will tell.

Best regards,
Paul S

03-22-2013

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	255
Post ID:	19138
Reply to:	19137

Audiopedophile's hell

Paul S wrote:
I have not tried the Eichmann, but I will do so in the near future. It seems stupid to me that they do not make a Ag socket.

Yes indeed, and I'm very much reluctant to have a free-air (i.e. not soldered) connection between dissimilar metals like Ag-Au in the phono path.
...actualy WBT NexGen socket is Pt-on-Ag, so their own contact is also with dissimilar metals: Ag-Pt.....hmmm...
I've found all silver CMC connectors, but no idea on the quality and there is no feedback on them:

http://www.vt4c.com/shop/program/main.php?cat_id=25&group_id=2 (scroll down to RCA-805FS-silver)

Paul S wrote:
No surprise, my experiments suggest that the Ag connectors "improve" the "silver qualities" of the Ag wire, versus the "sputtered" Au-over-Cu connectors with Ag wire.

Ok, this is interesting. Does it apply to the WBT plug/WBT socket or also to WBT plug/Au-on-Cu socket (e.g. Vampire?).
Sorry for being so anal, but I'd love to be done with the subject ASAP, parasiting on the knowledge of the others...also changing sockets in
my phono is not easy at all.

Paul S wrote:
Oddly, I get different results between Cu wire "sistering" versus Cu connectors used along with the Ag wire IC.

...ass in the title...grrr how I hate going through it

Paul S wrote:
Another thing for you to stress about is solder. "Silver" solder (like the WBT) is hardy silver, and in any case I do not know how to weld with pure silver, at least not without ruining the parts, setting everything on fire. Because of the inevitable "breaks" between metals, it almost seems like each metal "contributes its own sound" to the amalgam. Basically, only trial and error will tell.

Paul, I use Cardas quadropule eclectic blahblahblah and call it done.

Cheers,
N-set

Cheers,
Jarek
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03-23-2013

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	256
Post ID:	19142
Reply to:	19136

In da house

Jorge wrote:
Shouldnt your SUT be placed inside the Phono stage directly? that is a real advantage.

Jorge yes, the SUT/SUT's are definitely in da house of the phono--ther are some pics up the thread.

I'm not convinced foil is a good geometry for the phono cable: i) it has a large capacitance;
ii) using it I couldn't make a contiuus cable run from the cart to the phono input.

Cheers,
jarek

Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE

03-24-2013

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decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #:	257
Post ID:	19143
Reply to:	19142

Consistent anality

N-set, if we are at the level of worrying about solder, does it not make sense to drop RCA connectors, and their inherently village design, and switch to something better specified like BNC? Is this not otherwise a little like talking about having a Trabant redone in carbon fibre? I am having to redo some of my connections and it struck me it made no sense to stick with a standard that has nothing but popularity going for it.

03-24-2013

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	258
Post ID:	19144
Reply to:	19143

Right

decoud wrote:
N-set, if we are at the level of worrying about solder, does it not make sense to drop RCA connectors, and their inherently village design, and switch to something better specified like BNC? Is this not otherwise a little like talking about having a Trabant redone in carbon fibre? I am having to redo some of my connections and it struck me it made no sense to stick with a standard that has nothing but popularity going for it.

Very good point decoud! I very much agree with you that all those WBT's, Vampires, Furutech's, Eichmann's etc are basically carbon fiber, Tellurium-over-Gold Trabants. I have been strugling with the very question when starting my 834 assembly: shall I use the connector method I find reasonable (symmetric in the 1st place!!) or shall I stick to the "Trabant" RCA standard? I have choosen the latter to be able to try different, not only DIY, cables...and now I'm a prisoner of my choise. And the question of solder at those signal levels I'd not underestimate...but as I said I've chosen one solder and call it done.

Cheers,
Jarek
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03-26-2013

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	259
Post ID:	19149
Reply to:	19132

A speculation

Romy the Cat wrote:
The guy who did my Expressive Technology SU2 transformer after he heard my pontifications the silver is bad told me that there is some silver in my transformer. He did not go into details and I think as now the “secret” will be never revealed.

I might speculate that since Expressive Technologies operated around mid 90's and if I'm not wrong silver-clad-copper wire was then
+/- popular (correctly or not, backed up the by skin effect) so it might be it...or perhaps one of the windings is silver?
Anyway, the most important are Sonics at the end, not the details.

Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE

03-27-2013

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	260
Post ID:	19150
Reply to:	19137

Mone on silver Trabants

Paul S wrote:
I have not tried the Eichmann, but I will do so in the near future. It seems stupid to me that they do not make a Ag socket. No surprise, my experiments suggest that the Ag connectors "improve" the "silver qualities" of the Ag wire, versus the "sputtered" Au-over-Cu connectors with Ag wire.

Paul, have you had any experience with Audio Note silver plated RCA's?

http://www.audionote.co.uk/comp/connectors.shtml

It's Ag-over-something, not pure Ag, which I understand would be too soft and brittle (this is what they say).

There is also a CMC Ag-over-Cu:

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/80525cuag-copper-thick-silver-plate-sockets-pair-p-2163.html

which hificollective claims to be "the best trabant money can buy"...

Cheers,
jk

Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE

	Target	Threads for related reading	Most recent post in related threads	Forum	Replies	Views	Started
»	New	Where are our good phonostages?..	Omnigon Tubes...	Analog Playback Forum	61	665456	05-31-2004
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»	New	An interesting Russian pnonocorrector...	Uber-tweeky phono topologies deconstructed...	Analog Playback Forum	9	99319	03-01-2010
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»	New	How to run MM-type cartridge into MC phonostage?..	Quite interesting....	Analog Playback Forum	6	67371	11-13-2011
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	Target	Threads for related reading	Most recent post in related threads	Forum	Replies	Views	Started
»	New	Where are our good phonostages?..	Omnigon Tubes...	Analog Playback Forum	61	665456	05-31-2004
»	New	The Expressive Technologies SU-1..	“too bright” or “resolution” or “details” with SUT prim...	Analog Playback Forum	33	376157	12-30-2004
»	New	EAR 834P Modification Guide..	The cap will not change volume in the pass band...	Analog Playback Forum	45	639218	02-09-2006
»	New	My Analog Playback: the fat lady has sung..	My analog setup update....	Analog Playback Forum	9	119486	04-04-2006
»	New	Phono stages with SU-1..	SU-1...	Analog Playback Forum	4	66080	11-23-2007
»	New	Chasing utopian better phono interconnect...	Did I miss something?...	Analog Playback Forum	6	110895	06-05-2008
»	New	Buying a last cartridge...	Lucky you...	Analog Playback Forum	80	810368	09-05-2008
»	New	EAR 834P mods..	The cap will not change volume in the pass band...	Analog Playback Forum	45	639218	11-04-2008
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»	New	An interesting Russian pnonocorrector...	Uber-tweeky phono topologies deconstructed...	Analog Playback Forum	9	99319	03-01-2010
»	New	Expressive Technologies SU-1 and cartridge output and i..	MV and Ohms...	Analog Playback Forum	2	33631	07-07-2011
»	New	How to run MM-type cartridge into MC phonostage?..	Quite interesting....	Analog Playback Forum	6	67371	11-13-2011
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