GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site

10-02-2009

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Stitch

Behind The Sun
Posts 235
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #:	21
Post ID:	11894
Reply to:	11837

The lucky Audiophile

marknoir wrote:
Agreed. I only wish I could hear the new Platinum for myself... :-) Meanwhile I'll be looking for a used Shelter 901.

Do yourself a favor and look for components which aren't that colored.
When you don't want, because your System can't show any difference, ok, do it...
My latest idea:

Whenever I am in audio discussions and we'll reach the point (of no return):

"What components do you have?"

Of course, I say,"...blah,blah...koetsu Urushi Platinum....did you ever hear one?....Yes? Mine is new, what do you think about it?"

Of course it is a lie but I am interested about having a Moron in front of me or not...
When the answer is:"Boah, really? SUPER. When I will be a real Audiophile ...Man, I will buy one too....so lovely...so super...blah..blah..."or
...lowering the voice and whispering." .... really? I have 2....."...

well, then I know it, what kind of guy is in front of me.
I don't tell him what I think, for what? He will never have that kind of intelligence to find components which shows what is going on...

btw.

latest Hype 2009 about Koetsus, I had tears in my eyes after reading that

http://tempuri.org/tempuri.html

Specially after the Midrange report: the area where the music lives..."magic" of course. What is magic? I think, magic is the nonexistence of - right- Highs and lows

then, lets go on for something serious: 10.000 USD

Koetsu Azule

..Where the midrange has always been strength of the Koetsu cartridges it really becomes magical when listening to the female voice.

Aha. Of course. The female voice....and magic of course...

the midrange has always been strength of the Koetsu cartridges it really becomes magical when listening to the female voice.

and then: Bass

that is something which the serious Audiophile needs like Fresh Air for living....ok, lots of blah without any information (as usual) but then we can go for the grail (probably)

the 13 k Koetsu
Step 1: The reviewer show "us" that even he shocked about that price

..For $13k it better produce the artist live, in the flesh in my living room.

Step 2: the reviewer will give us some thoughts why it is well worth the price (even a steal)

.I figured for that kind of coin it should be cut from a solid diamond, preferably a blue diamond like the Hope Diamond… Well, I was somewhat wrong in my assessment of the appearance. The cartridge absolutely shimmers and has a beauty that made me begin to think differently about earth tones..

Step 3: the reviewer tells us, that he bought one of these reviewed Koetsues, because they are sooooooooo great and he can't simply not live any longer on this planet without..

.As for me I am sold on Koetsu as my reference cartridge and now the stone body platinum is replacing my Urushi. I will probably keep the Urushi and just suffer through having to own two Koetsu cartridges.....

:-)

Kind Regards
Stitch

02-10-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,400
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	23
Post ID:	12898
Reply to:	7609

Bye-Bye Koetsu…

My Koetsu Onyx has gone. I was packing my stuff and was wondering why do I need to keep my Koetsu Onyx? I do not like it and everyone keep telling me that it is a wonderful cartridge. After years of sitting in box I figured out that it would be a good time to let it go. For the money I got from it I might put solar panels on the roof of my future home and to have a free pool heating. Hey, the solar power might even to sound good….

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

02-11-2010

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Stitch

Behind The Sun
Posts 235
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #:	24
Post ID:	12903
Reply to:	12898

Is there any hope?

'...... and everyone keep telling me that it is a wonderful cartridge....'

Here we have another perfect example (the other ones I would put in the same box are LP12, Garrard, Schroeder Arm) that in the High end scenery today brain/knowledge was replaced with "believing in something."

Or in short form "I know nothing and I'am proud it it".

I stopped wondering.

After all my years in High end I realized, that there is no other business model out there where I can find so many idiots in one place.
They know nothing but they know how it must be.
I have respect from the Marketing power and its results but I will never understand that so many are not able to find out what weak results Koetsu and other have.

Are the Systems of today so bad?
Are the customers really that deaf?
I think, yes. A combination from both makes it possible to launch one nonsense after the next.

I agree, watching the Sun / growing grass / melting snow ... /makes more sense than to listen to some "High End" products

No hope in High End.

Kind Regards
Stitch

10-15-2011

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mem916
San Diego, CA
Posts 52
Joined on 10-14-2011

Post #:	25
Post ID:	17144
Reply to:	12903

Koetsu Coralstone needle drop

I never tried the Onyx. I had an Urushi, then a Jade, and now a Coralstone. No I didn't buy any of them in the US so I paid a lot less than the crazy retail prices people throw around. I only know one person personally who did try an Onyx and he didn't like it either. Not sure what the deal is with that one but I have enjoyed every Koetsu I have owned and am very happy with the Coral. I haven't tried the diamond cantilever option but I would like to.

Anyway, here is a sample recording made I just uploaded if you guys would care to listen and give me feedback.

Details are as follows:

This is a sample from about 8:37 in on the second side of a re-issue of Mercury Living Presence SR90226 (Stravinsky's Firebird). I can't remember if it is Classic or Speakers Corner.

Koetsu Coralstone Platinum
Versa Dynamics 1.2 running 75psi at the arm and 25" of vacuum.
Aesthetix IO Signature
Tascam DV-RA1000HD (recorded at 24/192 and then cut down to 24/96 for posting)

Cables used were Purist Audio Dominus XLR between the TT and the IO and then straight into the balanced inputs on the Tascam. The inputs on the Tascam were set to -6.0 dB.

This is a FLAC file. (Lossless compression.)

http://www.mediafire.com/?n31sdy07wwrgi4v

Mark

10-15-2011

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,400
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	26
Post ID:	17146
Reply to:	17144

Now we are taking!

mem916 wrote:
I never tried the Onyx. I had an Urushi, then a Jade, and now a Coralstone. No I didn't buy any of them in the US so I paid a lot less than the crazy retail prices people throw around. I only know one person personally who did try an Onyx and he didn't like it either. Not sure what the deal is with that one but I have enjoyed every Koetsu I have owned and am very happy with the Coral. I haven't tried the diamond cantilever option but I would like to.

Anyway, here is a sample recording made I just uploaded if you guys would care to listen and give me feedback.

Details are as follows:

This is a sample from about 8:37 in on the second side of a re-issue of Mercury Living Presence SR90226 (Stravinsky's Firebird). I can't remember if it is Classic or Speakers Corner.

Koetsu Coralstone Platinum
Versa Dynamics 1.2 running 75psi at the arm and 25" of vacuum.
Aesthetix IO Signature
Tascam DV-RA1000HD (recorded at 24/192 and then cut down to 24/96 for posting)

Cables used were Purist Audio Dominus XLR between the TT and the IO and then straight into the balanced inputs on the Tascam. The inputs on the Tascam were set to -6.0 dB.

This is a FLAC file. (Lossless compression.)

http://www.mediafire.com/?n31sdy07wwrgi4v

Mark

Mark,

thank you very much for your post. I did listen the file and I do like it – quite wonderfully sound. Unfortunately those uploaded, even they give a some impression about the capacity of the entire analog setup but they do not let to make a judgment about cartridge independently. For woatver it worth I can only assure you that my Onyx did not give me even close to the sound that you are getting from your Koetsu.

If you would like I can A/D the same Firebird fragment from the same LP playing at my analog setup. At my playback it sounds slightly different and it might be mutually educational, at least it was for me.

Rgs, Romy the Cat

PS: BTW, I have a side note. What you did is very seldom illustration of how the internet communication on the subject shall be. There are a lot of idiots out there who juts run ignorant mouths with superficial opinions. You position was different. You witnessed opinion that you are apparently disagree and you presented your case. Not the BS literature as usually but demonstrate the actual result. I wish all internet audio people embrace the same practice.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

10-15-2011

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mem916
San Diego, CA
Posts 52
Joined on 10-14-2011

Post #:	27
Post ID:	17147
Reply to:	17146

Koetsu coral

Hi Romy,

Yes I would love to hear the same segment from your analog setup for comparison.   I think it would be very interesting even though there are so many variables that it probably doesn't tell me much in an absolute sense.

I don't really disagree with your opinion (and others opinions) about the Onyx. And honestly I don't have enough experience with competing cartridges to even disagree with people who say "all koetsu's are overhyped garbage". I have never had the resources or inclination to spend the time comparing cartridges. This summer I did try to compare the Jade to the Coralstone but A) the Coral wasn't broken in and B) by the time I could get the Jade set up and adjusted right I had started to forget what the Coral sounded like. To me the Coral was already sounding better but that could have been my "wishful thinking". I only have one tonearm on the Versa so its a real pain to compare cartridges.

So now after the Coral has broken in I can say that the sound I am getting is much much better than it was when I had the Jade in the system. But this doesn't mean anything in reality since I have changed other things too!   I have since sold the Jade so I can't go back and compare now.

The odd thing about Koetsu is that they claim there is no other difference between the Jade and the Coralstone besides the body itself.   It is hard to believe that the sound could be so different but it seems to be! Perhaps Onyx is just the "wrong" material to use?

Thanks for your time. I agree there is a lot of stuff thrown around without any really productive results. People get their pride and egos involved and get upset too easily, I think. Here I had a simple way to show that at least one Koetsu doesn't sound terrible.

Mark

10-15-2011

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,400
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	28
Post ID:	17149
Reply to:	17147

Let see how it goes.

mem916 wrote:
Hi Romy,

Yes I would love to hear the same segment from your analog setup for comparison.   I think it would be very interesting even though there are so many variables that it probably doesn't tell me much in an absolute sense.

I don't really disagree with your opinion (and others opinions) about the Onyx. And honestly I don't have enough experience with competing cartridges to even disagree with people who say "all koetsu's are overhyped garbage". I have never had the resources or inclination to spend the time comparing cartridges. This summer I did try to compare the Jade to the Coralstone but A) the Coral wasn't broken in and B) by the time I could get the Jade set up and adjusted right I had started to forget what the Coral sounded like. To me the Coral was already sounding better but that could have been my "wishful thinking". I only have one tonearm on the Versa so its a real pain to compare cartridges.

So now after the Coral has broken in I can say that the sound I am getting is much much better than it was when I had the Jade in the system. But this doesn't mean anything in reality since I have changed other things too!   I have since sold the Jade so I can't go back and compare now.

The odd thing about Koetsu is that they claim there is no other difference between the Jade and the Coralstone besides the body itself.   It is hard to believe that the sound could be so different but it seems to be! Perhaps Onyx is just the "wrong" material to use?

Thanks for your time. I agree there is a lot of stuff thrown around without any really productive results. People get their pride and egos involved and get upset too easily, I think. Here I had a simple way to show that at least one Koetsu doesn't sound terrible.

Mark

Sure, I will record a fragment but I need to find out how to do it as I do not A/D records usually and my A/D converters are not equipped to deal with very high output voltage of my phonostage. In a past I A/D only “soft” sounding records, with the Firebird I am sure it will be 4-5dB over 0dB and I need to figure out how to eat this gain. I think it would worth to match the recording levels of my file to your file. I do not know how to do it but I will come up with something…

You might understand how people come with statements that “all koetsu's are overhyped garbage". If you pay $5K for a needle that does sound like garbage then you do not need more prove, do you? Nevertheless, the example you posted sound nothing like a playback has any problems with cartridges. In fact it was very nice. I am very interested to hear how my file would sound from the same LP and I would be very interested to compare the notes after I record the file.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

10-15-2011

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mem916
San Diego, CA
Posts 52
Joined on 10-14-2011

Post #:	29
Post ID:	17150
Reply to:	17149

Sounds like fun!

Yes you don't want to go over 0 "dBFS" for sure. In fact it is not good to even hit 0 dB from what I have read in an AES paper. Something odd happens when you play it back (I can't remember the details). I shoot for peaks at -2 or -3 dBFS when I record digitally. The sample I sent you peaks at -1.8.
Some people do post processing to "normalize" up but I am skeptical of any post processing so I take the time to adjust the input level. The Tascam
has built-in attenuators to allow this. However I got to thinking that perhaps they are not very high quality so I did another pass at the Stravinsky this morning with the Tascam's inputs bypassed. Instead I used the Callisto to attenuate the signal from the IO down to roughly the same input level. Later I will post a link to the new file. The connection between the Callisto and the Tascam is an un-balanced (RCA) Dominus cable. Everything else was the same so if they sound different it should be informative.

For your recording don't worry about getting the same exact level as my file. What I can do is analyze it with a program that will tell me what to do with my volume controls to match within a dB or so when I play it back. I playback through an Audio Aero Capitole MK II which has analog volume controls an is pretty accurate in it's display of "dB's of attenuation" and does half dB steps.

Certainly I understand why people would be upset if they paid good money for a cartridge and then didn't like it. I think I was lucky that I didn't try the Onyx first. I think if I was running Koetsu I would discontinue that model. However some people must actually like it.

I'm not saying this was the case for you but perhaps others have not adjusted the azimuth and VTF properly on their Koetsus. I had a hell of a time for a while with my Jade. It was distorting on various recordings that I was *sure* had not sounded that way before. I finally tracked it down to my crappy digital stylus force gauge that was reading half a gram heavy! I got rid of that thing and bought a Sure balance beam type stylus force gauge. I noticed with the Coral that getting the azimuth set very close to perfect helped a lot too. I'm not one of those guys who obsesses over VTA but occasionally I will play with it too if I hear something "not quite right".

I'm interested to hear your file and compare notes too. And naturally if you are ever in my area let me know, I could play the LP for you on my system. (I live in San Diego).

Mark

10-15-2011

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mem916
San Diego, CA
Posts 52
Joined on 10-14-2011

Post #:	30
Post ID:	17152
Reply to:	17150

Second pass at Firebird

OK here is another take of the same section. This time with the Aesthetix Callisto. I set the Tascam's inputs to "bypass" and used the volume controls on the Callisto to attenuate the signal to about the same level as the previous recording. The peaks are different by about 1 dB. So when you play the old file against this new you my want to adjust accordingly.

first sample file peak: -1.80 dB
This file peak: -0.96 dB

I will let you tell me which one you like better. Smile

http://www.mediafire.com/?qaao4t9rg6aitoq

Cables between the Callisto and the Tascam were Purist Dominus RCA.

No post processing. Originally recorded at 24/192 and then re-sampled to 24/96.

Mark

10-15-2011

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mem916
San Diego, CA
Posts 52
Joined on 10-14-2011

Post #:	31
Post ID:	17154
Reply to:	17152

24/96 vs. lp

So I gave a serious listen to the vinyl source vs. the digital playback to try to get some idea of how much damage the AtoD -> DtoA does. I matched the volume levels as well as I could using my ancient radio shack SPL meter. To me it seems that the conversion in and out of digital decreases the sense you get from the vinyl of the hall reverberant "cues" that fool you into thinking you are listening to the live event. It doesn't eliminate these cues completely but decreases them. Also the vinyl seems to have a better "grip" on the sound, like it's more in control, more confident and assertive if that makes sense. It's not that the digital copy sounds horrible, just that in direct comparison it sounds not quite as real and lively. Its fine for playing around with like we are using it for to send samples to others, but there is no way I would ever archive my entire vinyl collection to digital and sell my records, turntable, etc. Not with the Tascam anyway.

Mark

10-15-2011

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,400
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	32
Post ID:	17155
Reply to:	17152

Kitty is chasing the firebird.

Below is the very same fragment from the very same LP (also not original but re-issue). The file is 88/24, FLAC compression.

http://www.mediafire.com/?bpgxdbru87fkx8x

The sequence of signal is following:

Ortofone Jubelee in SME 3012R on Micro Seiki 8000
Dominus B
“End of the life phonostage” (http://www.goodsoundclub.com/EndOfLifePhonostage.aspx)
Dominus B
Placette Active line state, “tape out” output
No Name experimental cable (have no extra RCA-RCA good cable)
RCA to XLR adapter from Radio Shake
4db attenuator
Pacific Microsonic Model 2
The sound of my and your files is VERY different in any aspect: tonal, dynamic, imaging, articulation etc… In fact the sound that you have is what more or less I was promised I will be getting from Koetsu but my Onyx was not near close to it.

BTW, how wonderful it would be if someone host a site what would be 100s be of uploads of the same work with all imaginary cartridges. I wrote about it but I can’t find it now at my site.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

10-15-2011

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mem916
San Diego, CA
Posts 52
Joined on 10-14-2011

Post #:	33
Post ID:	17156
Reply to:	17155

Downloading now

Excellent! Looking forward to hearing it. I have been curious about Micro Seiki's but have never even seen one, let alone heard one.

A site like you describe would be very useful if it was done in a controlled fashion. The system to make the recordings would have to remain the same except for the cartridge and the poor guy running it would have to be very meticulous in setting up each cartridge, playing the same record over and over, cleaning it between cartridges, etc. Definitely not a job I would volunteer for!

There are a few sites where people post "needle drops" but naturally it's all different music, all different systems, some "de-click", some don't etc. pretty much useless for comparing different cartridges.

Mark

10-15-2011

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mem916
San Diego, CA
Posts 52
Joined on 10-14-2011

Post #:	35
Post ID:	17158
Reply to:	17157

Hmm.. hate to ask, but

Can you re-do yours in 24/96 kHz? I would like to make sure the difference I am hearing are not do to sample rate conversion issues.

I am playing both files from the Tascam via coax digital output to my Audio Aero. BUT the Audio-Aero upsamples everything fed to it to 24/192 kHz and 96 to 192 is a much simpler (2x) conversion than 88.2 to 192.

By the way I am glad you shipped me the file in 88.2 since it forced me to play my file back from the tascam instead of from my laptop. It seems that the laptop's toslink output is not nearly as good as the coax from the tascam. Now I have to re-evaluate the tascam vs Vinyl comparison I just did. After I do a direct comparison to make sure. Very interesting stuff! Unfortunately I have to take a break to bake a pie for a party I am going to later tonight.

Thanks for going to the trouble to record your copy and sending it to me!

Mark

10-15-2011

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mem916
San Diego, CA
Posts 52
Joined on 10-14-2011

Post #:	37
Post ID:	17160
Reply to:	17159

Nah it's ok - you're not being a jerk!

I figured you had a good reason for going with 88.2. I have already re-assembled everything for playback. Tomorrow I will put it back for recording and do a 24/88 recording the same way I did the previous one. It will be interesting for me anyway to compare playing back my two files (24/88 and 24/96) through the Audio Aero to see if I notice any ill effects from the upsampling to 192 of the 88 file. I cannot turn off the upsampling that the Audio Aero does but I can play the same format of file, which seems to make it a reasonable comparison.

By the way you got your levels set well... almost exactly the same as my file. (-0.79 dB vs -0.96 dB)

Mark

10-15-2011

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,400
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	38
Post ID:	17161
Reply to:	17160

Listening the files. Brief comments.

The whole presentation of sound is very different with your and my file. Your file is very lush sounding. It is very pleasant but a bit too euphoric for THIS music. My file is much more dynamic (if comes from my transformer) and in the way this dynamic range literally tear apart imaging. The speakers need to be positioned different to handle this dynamics. My file has more colors and the colors are a bit more aggressive. This is from my cartridge in my view that has some sort of swift colors, something that I get accustomed. I do like the pastel nobility of your cartridge, to get that pastel, lash and luxury nobility was the reason I was buying my Onyx but it did not sound even remotely useful. At my file you will see a lot of very finer micro-dynamic, all that strings bite and so on. The articulation of individual instruments and groups is much more expressive at my file, I do not know what is responsible for it. My file a bit zippier and I do not like it. I know where it come from and I could easily get read of it during play (demagnetize the cartridge) but I did not do it. Your file has better special presentation; it comes with some compression territory I presume.

Generally I feel that your file is more organically balanced then my, more musical. My file makes sound a bit too barbaric. My problem is that I kind of like Stravinsky this way. Ironically, playing the more moderate and more conservative music I feel that “barbarism” doe not manifest its, in fact it always good to have some of it to spare.

The result I observe are pretty much what I expected and it was what I meant saying that my analog setup shall sound different. I do have Ortofon SPU Classic that I play when I would like to have the type of sound that your playback demonstrated. Unfortunately I feel that Ortofon SPU Classic is a bit too week needle. I think Koetsu a bit rehabilitated in my eyes. I still among all Koetsu I would like to hear the Vintage Rosewood that a friend of my told and somebody had mention in this thread before. I think that Rosewood made name for Koetsu and then they just keep produce average cartridges and milk the Koetsu Rosewood success. Well, what make them different from anybody else?

I wish somebody with Koetsu Rosewood would do own vision of the file. It is not that I am looking for cartridges but it would be interesting for educational purpose.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

10-15-2011

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mem916
San Diego, CA
Posts 52
Joined on 10-14-2011

Post #:	39
Post ID:	17162
Reply to:	17161

Interesting analysis

I'm taking a break from baking. I didn't listen nearly as long to the files as you have so I will not give any analysis yet. It did occur to me that I better send you my 24/88 file once I record it since you are having to do sample rate conversion somewhere to play my 24/96 file on your system. Unless you have no problems with the 48/96 clock on playback?

I am glad that you like some things about my file. Of course all of this is very interesting and educational but everyone has different things they look for in a system and different preferences. It is a very fun hobby! And yes perhaps some more people will jump in and post versions from their systems if they happen to have this record. I chose it because it seems to be popular, I love the music, and it is very well recorded. So presumably quite a few in this hobby will also have copies.

Mark

10-15-2011

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mem916
San Diego, CA
Posts 52
Joined on 10-14-2011

Post #:	40
Post ID:	17163
Reply to:	17162

Koetsu theories

I have a different theory about Koetsu. I think they did make a name for themselves with the Rosewood like you say, but and then kept fiddling and experimenting with different materials. The lacquer coating on the Urushi, for example, then the platinum magnets. And then they decided to play with stone bodies. I think they started with Onyx and then moved on to other stones. Some were hits (like the Coral and the Jade, and I suspect the platinum magnets), others were disasters. It would be interesting to hear them all, of course. But the thought of all that cartridge setup and meticulous serious listening gives me the shudders.

Mark