oxric wrote:

Mike duly explained to me that he would not vouch for the work of anyone not qualified and experienced with Vitavox drivers, given both the complexity of the work and the number of parts that go into making these drivers. I assured him that I would be more than happy with him doing this work for a fee. We had a chat about the possible costs of parts and labour (to be confirmed). The figures he mentioned were very reasonable and all in all, it seemed the only sensible thing to do was let Mike undertake the work, as Romy had also recommended him in the Vitavox S2 survival thread.

The Vitavox Harvey, or as I call him the Vitavox Mike is THE Vitavox guy, he own the Vitavox original tooling, know-how and I believe the legal name. I would disagree with his moments regarding the “complexity of the work and the number of parts”. There is absolutely nothing in Vitavox that makes it different from any other driver and any capable technician who know how to deal with compression drivers shall be able to test them, cleaned and demagnetize them. Of cause it your drivers are defective and you need new parts then Vitavox Mike would be the man… Sure, with all other equal conditions it would be preferable if Mike does it but it is very much not necessary. I feel that any compression driver user shall learn how to do it himself and it is very simple and owner shall retune the drivers periodically anyhow…

oxric wrote:

Mike assured me that www.vitavoxhifi.com would be imminently going online, the necessary move to bigger premises having caused some delay, and only at this point he would be able to take in my drivers. And then started a very long wait. In the past year, I have spoken with Mike on several occasions and received repeated assurances that it was going to be very soon! I must say that Mike was always very courteous on the numerous occasions when we talked, although he was very busy with the launch of the Living Voice Vox Olympian speakers. I waited for weeks, then months... Around February of this year, we had another long chat where he assured me that I should be expecting an announcement in no longer than a month's time. After that, many months went by and I dared not pester him again. But I dared eventually and talked to him two months ago when I got pretty much the same assurances as previously. I do not wish to pass judgement on a company when I do not know the precise reasons for the delay but if it was my company, a few heads would have rolled!

Well, I do not want to pass judgment about Mike as well as as I was able to observe his operation he has been doing the same “expecting an announcement” mode since 2002. If I migh I would pass a judgment about something that let Mike not-readiness to hold own progress for over a year. Why Mike’s delay bothers you so much. In my mind you Mike delay is obsessed reason for you, not the actual cause.

oxric wrote:

I have more or less decided to do what I can myself, with the assistance of the Vitavox S2 survival guide Romy has posted on this site, and maybe with the help of others (if you are an expert in Vitavox S2 drivers give me a shout), but would have preferred not to have wasted so much time waiting and then for absolutely nothing to materialise. It would be great if someone who is in the field, who felt confident with Vitavox S2s, would offer his professional and punctilious services testing, servicing, aligning and remagnetising these very vintage drivers. I am aware that we will have to wait for Mike to set up shop when it comes to sourcing diaphragms and other parts, but in the meantime an independent service point for these drivers would certainly be a huge help. I am realistic enough to know there is very little chance of this idea coming to anything but after a year of interminable waiting, even this faint sliver of hope is better than nothing.

Sure, you have to do it yourself, it will take 30 minutes. Post questions if you need any help. If you need to magnetize them then it cost $25 per pair in any good driver servicing shop.

oxric wrote:

P.S. By the way, Romy, should you be wondering, I will not be setting up shop servicing a limited run of Vitavox drivers.

Nope, you will not be opening the shop. To have a shop you will need to rent a space and when you go renting the space for shop you will discover mice in the facility. You will spend next 3 years to study the mice hunting manuals and to bread the mice-hunting Cats. They you will write a book about the mice-hunting and will start a company that sell rat poison by bulk…

Romy the Cat wrote:

oxric wrote: P.S. By the way, Romy, should you be wondering, I will not be setting up shop servicing a limited run of Vitavox drivers. Nope, you will not be opening the shop. To have a shop you will need to rent a space and when you go renting the space for shop you will discover mice in the facility. You will spend next 3 years to study the mice hunting manuals and to bread the mice-hunting Cats. They you will write a book about the mice-hunting and will start a company that sell rat poison by bulk… The caT

oxric wrote:

I know you use words in a very random fashion but in my opinion, there is something repellent in qualifying my interest in Vitavox drivers as 'autistic.' The predicament of people who suffer from these sometimes debilitating disabilities should attract sympathy not be the subject of crass attempts at humour. Indeed autism is such a prevalent albeit ill-understood condition that it would not surprise me in the slightest if I actually did suffer from it, maybe at the low end of the spectrum. On the other hand, if you were to scan your website for someone who exhibit the typical symptons that may well be indicators of the condition, namely language problems, problems to socialise, a lack of empathy and odd 'eccentric' behaviour, I wonder who else you might come up with...?

You might find it repellent but not me. It might be a surprise to you but I do not use words in a very random fashion. It is my long standing theory that many audio people use audio (and not only audio) as a getaway to deal with internal or sometimes subconscious autistic inclinations. Many truly deliberating sick with autism people incomprehensibly obsessed with some non- applied and illusionary objects. I do feel that you have this tendency. BTW, saying it I do not put any judgmental value into it. It is not bad or god, it is what it is. But it needs to be self-understood.

I do find it a bit funny that you attribute autistic inclinations to me as some kind “defense”.  I am so willingly comply with any diagnoses out there that it is not even funny. The mistake you made is that I have no “problems to socialize”. I do have problems to socialize with Morons but I remain a master of my own universe and I decide myself who is a Moron and with whom I will enjoy to have problems to socialize. For a time being I would like to remind you that we are remaining in different business.  I observe drivers and think how to use them to cure my autistic fixation with Sound. You are inventing the windmills and fight with them in order to satisfy your completely healthy enjoyment of “project managements”.  Again, as long as it make you happy it is fine. There are a lot of people who run marathon just for sake of participation. Marathon is a big tent. The running shoes are very important. Would you like to look into the running shoes design and manufacturing?

Anyhow, I was under impression that this site is about “advanced audio and evolved music reproduction techniques”. How the end we end up with autopsy of Adidas sneakers? Do you really enjoy it? I can open a special forum for people who obsessed with anything near-audio related.

jessie.dazzle wrote:

In the few converstaions I've had with him, Mike seems totally sincere and, as I've mentioned before, I very much hope he will one day come through.

So, the point is that for Mike to start the new production mean to create publicity complain. Advortise and to become a full time industry-involved, mind you to be “involved” with a product that has very limited target market to begin with. So, I very much understand what Mike does. If I solo own the tooling, patents, know-how for Western Electric, Klingfilm of Marconi then I would do the very same  - did nothing with them. So, the Vitavox Mike might just sitting on all that Vitavox treasure, waiting what a right moment in his life strikes for him.

I think a good option for Vitavox Mike would be to find some kind of Marketing Whore like Joe Roberts (only contemporary and relevant) who would undertake the task to reincarnate the Vitavox name. Then Mike will not need to humiliate himself to deal with people and let the dirty work to do for dirty people. I know, I know, now Rakesh, will jump in and will “discover” one more autistic evidence in me: the social withdrawal. Still, I would prefer to be called anything only do not deal with foolish audio people who are in their “faith buying” mode.

So, I do not see that what Vitavox Mike does as something that is wrong.  The new Vitavox might never rise and if it did then it might keep bleeding for years. The only thingk that I do if I were Mike and if I had an interest to restart the Vitavox wouls be do not come back with new production of drivers but rather with a new production of complete speakers. The complete speakers are much easier to marker and if they have the advantage to use better Vitavox drivers, then it would be good for them.

jessie.dazzle wrote:

In the few converstaions I've had with him, Mike seems totally sincere and, as I've mentioned before, I very much hope he will one day come through. jd*

oxric wrote:

Well Jessie, it looks like your wish has come true. The Vitavox site went live at 9 a.m. this morning. It has very interesting implications for the compression drivers landscape in that it suddenly makes buying a high-end compression driver, and not paying absurd Goto or ALE prices, a much more affordable and risk-free exercise. Whilst it does diminish the exclusivity value of these drivers, which may not please everyone, I expect it will enable a much larger number of people to experiment with these. That this should happen on the same day that we are placing an order for the Fane 8M drivers is either an extraordinary coincidence or quite an omen.

Thanks, Rakesh, this is good news indeed. I still do not know how they market themselves: as parts company of the complete speaker company, I guess the time will show.

http://www.vitavoxhifi.com/main.php

It looks they have a new version of  System CN191 under development, let see how it materialize itself.

The sire is good, the text is good, hey eventually the binding posts for S2 driver that always get broken off become available! That all good things. I wonder if Mike made any modifications to the things that needed to be modified. I did not see that he mention differences between old production and new one. It would be nice if somebody overview those differences and evaluate the results.

I do not think that making new production Vitavox available has any “interesting implications for the compression drivers landscape”. Vitavox drivers were quite available in used market, whoever wanted them had them, so I do not see any change in anything. The opportunity to service Vitavox and to have parts available is of cause great but in one way of another Mike always was able to do it.

I also disagree with the notion that “buying a high-end compression driver, and not paying absurd Goto or ALE prices” has to do anything with Vitavox. The Vitavox S2 driver is not a substitute or alternative to Goto, ALE, JBL, TAD or anything else. The S2 driver had own character Goto or any specific JBL has own character. One might use whatever he wants or need. Here was never any debate about S2 vs. Goto. I am pretty sure that thinking about system organization with use of S2 is different then it would be with Gotos, people do not “get” it now but they will another day, not all of them but some of them will….

The great thing that I see is that Mike preserved the original exponential Vitavox horn with 3 slots at the throat. That is good as, if not to use spherical horns then I do like that horn. Now the Vitavox Mike has it available in wood. This is very-very good.

For whatever reasons I do not see the specification for the S2 drive and the actual response. I do see the link but the PDF file come empty. What I wonder if Mike was able to deal with secondary resonance at 1250Hz. I guess the time will show…

jd, I cannot see any of PDF files, probably my current networks kills them.

I do not know the AK150 drivers. I know AK157, AK151 and K15/40. If they have significantly lower free-air resonance, at 30-35Hz then I am not sure that they would be more suitable for 40Hz horns. When you have 40Hz horn then he best driver to use in there would have free-air resonance around 50-60Hz. As you load the 40Hz then the reactance of air will increase the virtual mass of the cone and the resonance will be dropping almost twice. It is a good idea to have the drooped resonance a bit below the horn rate. If you have 40Hz horn then it would be nice to have 55H driver. In horn it will drop to let say35Hz and then you will drive it with back chamber up to 40Hz. If you have driver that are 35Hz in free air and let say 22 Hz loaded then the back chamber will be VERY small. Will it be good? I do not know. What I would be afraid in bass driver and ultra small back chamber is the compression…

The biggest thing that I wonder is how Mick made the Vitavox bass drivers to has 35Hz resonance. You can always use softer suspension and it will drive resonance down but it also make the excursion of the driver and much wider. Does the original Vitavox magnetic structure supports it? I do not know. On a different note Mike might make the gap a bit longer and use longer magma ring… No one knows what he did…. I personally do not see a use of those drivers. They would be fine for open baffles but I do not use open baffles …

Yes, it would be VERY interesting if Cessaro Gamma uses Vitavox S2 driver or Mike would come up with his own Macondo-type configuration. Still, since Vitavox doe only one compression drives and one bass driver then I can see that Vitavox will stick to 2-3 channels setups with big bass bin. This type of the speaker that Silbaone/GIP show up in Munich this year would be the most probable direction that Vitavox would go.

From my perspective I have less interest in the fate of Vitavox S2 driver.  I do not think that anybody would tell me something new about it, as well as the way how I use it in my system make my S2 very much un-orthodox S2 driver. However, the 15” bass drivers are very interesting subject. Vitavox was MUCH more interesting then any best Altec, JBL, Klipsh, EV, TAD, Klangfilm and a few other 15 inchers but I did not play with GIP, Goto, ALE, WE 15-inchers. I would like to see how Vitavox 15” would complete with those drivers in different applications.  Since the AK157, AK151 and K15/40 become available (even with new diaphragm that no one knows what they are made from) I think more and more people will use them and let see how it turn out to be in term of sound results. From a different side: no one built proper horns for 15” drivers. I need to pitch the new AK151 to Jeffery Jackson, he might put it in use….

jessie.dazzle wrote:

The AK150 and 152 are not new creations dreamed up by Mike; they were made back in the day by Vitavox but nobody ever talks about them and I have never seen either. See the Unofficial Vitavox web site; AK150 = Catalog N° CN143; AK152 = Catalog N° CN327. http://website.lineone.net/~empson/CN.html My understanding is that all these drivers use the same chassis and motor assembly and that it is only the addition of a cone/voice coil that finally determines what they end up; if that is so, then presumably the original AK driver was designed with consideration for the lower Fs. I would hope the lower Fs were achieved via an additional pleat in the suspension. This would of course require additional tooling, so it is possible that the lower Fs were achieved via simple mass-loading of the membrane (i.e. making the cone thicker) which comes at a price.

But adding mass to membrane change the dynamics of everything, it also increases the exertion as it will add moment of inertia of the cove movement. Anyhow, I did not realized that they existed in past, I never seen them. Most likely they were used as direct radiators and have burned out long time ago….

jessie.dazzle wrote:

As with the S2, my understanding is that every attempt was made to be as faithful as possible to the older production units which would suggest simply continuing production of the parts unchanged. This in theory is possible, as I read a while ago that, along with the rights to produce the drivers, the original tooling was purchased and is presumably still being used (though it did require refurbishing). If so, the question then becomes one of availability of the materials and of course the know-how. In response to both of these issues, given the fact that this is all taking place in England (wonderfully resistant to change as it is!), there's a fair chance both are possible.

Hm…. I do not think that mike would “as faithfully as possible” reproduce the original S2 diaphragms. I do not like the original S2 diaphragms, at least they need to be used very differently from how I would like to use my S2 drivers.  The Mike’s production from 2000, with white plastic suspension was much better then the original diaphragms, even they had that ugly response. I hope he will use the white plastic suspension in his new production…. The bass driver is a different story. There is no materials that were available 60 year back and nothing you can do with it. It for sure will be new production with new sound. It might be even better but it will not be the same as 50-60 years back. No one company ever was able to make a comeback with the same sound…..

Anyhow, my main concern is that Mike in his documentation stated the S2’s poser handling of 100W. This is very interesting. There are two option why I think it happens. He might consider that original 10W of power handling would scare the Morons who accustom to drive horns with 1000W digital amplifiers.  So, he wrote 100W to be more conventional among the competitors. Alternatively Mike could use the thinker wire for his voice coil and to make the S2 driver to be able to handle 100W. This would mean that the new production has thinker VC and consequently heavier diaphragm then before. Heavier diaphragm = lower Fs = different dynamic of back and front loading = pretty much different sound. Mike could find new ways to wind the VC that would add thermal-resistance of VC with preservation of mass, I do not know what he did but generally I would prefer to use a driver with lover power handling, not higher….

Romy wrote:

"...But adding mass to membrane change the dynamics of everything, it also increases the exertion as it will add moment of inertia of the cone movement…"

This is what I meant when I stated that it comes at a price. In any case, I would expect the new version to manage Fs in the same way the older production drivers did it; whether that be via mass-loading or rendering the suspension more compliant (an additional pleat).

"...The Mike’s production from 2000, with white plastic suspension was much better then the original diaphragms, even they had that ugly response. I hope he will use the white plastic suspension in his new production..."

From the Vitavox site (I mean the new, "Official" site):

"...The surround is formed from polyester, a material virtually immune to vibration fracture, and is stiffened by means of heat-formed tangential ribs which allow free movement of the dome over the required excursion..."

Color or opacity of the material in itself means nothing; it could very well be white, pink or have leopard spots (I'm betting you'd like that!), all independent of its physical characteristics.

By the way, for those who don't know, Mylar is a trademarked name for polyester sheet or film:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mylar

The 100W thing caught my eye as well and raised an eyebrow...

jd*

jessie.dazzle wrote:

Color or opacity of the material in itself means nothing; it could very well be white, pink or have leopard spots (I'm betting you'd like that!), all independent of its physical characteristics.

jessie.dazzle wrote:

Here's what's behind my comment regarding the irrelevance of color: I strongly suspect that the new production diaphragms will come with transparent Mylar suspension. In that case, I would hope they turn out to have the mechanical properties of the white Mylar suspended diaphragms. This is nothing more than me reminding (reassuring) myself that, though less likely, it is in theory still possible.

Peter Empson from United Kingdom, the guy who use to run Unofficial Vitavox site and Forum has open a High-Fi shop in Aylesbury with a sentimental name “Deco Audio”. He sells the new production of Vitavox parts: The S2 drivers, the 15” woofer and the new version of the mid-range “Dispersive” horns. Peter has price list at his site and they want pretty much £3.5K per any unit.

http://www.decoaudio.com/drive_units.html