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08-23-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
audiofilofine
Posts 29
Joined on 02-26-2010
Post #: 1
Post ID: 14285
Reply to: 14285
The best 20 hz bass horn
fiogf49gjkf0d

I would like to build great horns for the bass as deep as possible and I use 4 woofer altec 416th.

the listening room is 25 square meter, dont have aesthetic problems.
suggestions?
08-23-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 2
Post ID: 14286
Reply to: 14285
Great horns for the bass?
fiogf49gjkf0d
audiofilofine,

you need to form a question in a format that would indicate you do the your do some homework. To bulb or even to design 20Hz horn is complex task and it usually made to the specifics of the given circumstances. As rule to use properly the 20hz horn even more complicated then to make it. So, before fantasizing about 20 Hz horns I would like to know that you are serious in your interest and have something to back up your interest.

Rgs, Romy the Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-23-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
audiofilofine
Posts 29
Joined on 02-26-2010
Post #: 3
Post ID: 14287
Reply to: 14286
Bass horn
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
audiofilofine,

you need to form a question in a format that would indicate you do the your do some homework. To bulb or even to design 20Hz horn is complex task and it usually made to the specifics of the given circumstances. As rule to use properly the 20hz horn even more complicated then to make it. So, before fantasizing about 20 Hz horns I would like to know that you are serious in your interest and have something to back up your interest.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


i have 4 416a altec in onken w cabinet with jbl 2482 driver on yl vintage horn ( 90x70x150 cm)
have altec 806 or jbl 2420 on tactrix round horn and b&c bullett tweeter.
crossover is beheringer 2496,amplifier are 3 vtl 75-75,bass,medium ,high  ,and ikarus duetto royale for tweeter.
i want change onken w with great bass horn.
08-23-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 4
Post ID: 14288
Reply to: 14287
Ask yourself proper questions.
fiogf49gjkf0d
audiofilofine,

you need to examine your room and your entire domestic environment in order to see where and how you might make your pair of bass horns. Also, if they will be 20Hz horn then are you planning to use next chelas up as Altec MF driver? The 806 driver is 700Hz tweeter. I do not believe it makes sense and if you planning to so then you need to do more home thinking. Also, why it shall be 20Hz horn why not 25Hz horn? Anyhow, audiofilofine, please do not take it to personally but until I see a well laid out plan of actions from your I do not think that it worth to talks about it. 90% of all answers is an ability to ask proper questions. I do not think that you so far asked yourself proper questions.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-23-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
audiofilofine
Posts 29
Joined on 02-26-2010
Post #: 5
Post ID: 14290
Reply to: 14288
Horn
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
audiofilofine,

you need to examine your room and your entire domestic environment in order to see where and how you might make your pair of bass horns. Also, if they will be 20Hz horn then are you planning to use next chelas up as Altec MF driver? The 806 driver is 700Hz tweeter. I do not believe it makes sense and if you planning to so then you need to do more home thinking. Also, why it shall be 20Hz horn why not 25Hz horn? Anyhow, audiofilofine, please do not take it to personally but until I see a well laid out plan of actions from your I do not think that it worth to talks about it. 90% of all answers is an ability to ask proper questions. I do not think that you so far asked yourself proper questions.

The Cat

you have reason.

this i s idea
altec 416a    20 or +    hz  to 250 hz
jensen f 12        250-800 hz  horn or cabinet
jbl 2482    800-3000hz yl horn
altec 806 or jbl 2420   3000-8000 tactrix round horn
b&c bullett tweeter 8000-20000
after send plans of room
08-25-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Horn Savant


Posts 10
Joined on 08-15-2010
Post #: 6
Post ID: 14305
Reply to: 14285
Using 416's
fiogf49gjkf0d
Before experimenting with the Hi power Electrostatic module, I used 416's
in my large corner horn. They sounded extraordinary (ran with inf baffle to basement
and made me realize how much Altec/JBL enclosures suck with their poor deep bass
performance
08-25-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
audiofilofine
Posts 29
Joined on 02-26-2010
Post #: 7
Post ID: 14308
Reply to: 14305
Horn
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Horn Savant wrote:
Before experimenting with the Hi power Electrostatic module, I used 416's
in my large corner horn. They sounded extraordinary (ran with inf baffle to basement
and made me realize how much Altec/JBL enclosures suck with their poor deep bass
performance


there is a window on the side to be 4.50 meters and then thought of using angles to the sides of the window
building two trumpets type euronor but flipped
08-25-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Horn Savant


Posts 10
Joined on 08-15-2010
Post #: 8
Post ID: 14321
Reply to: 14308
Inf Baffle
fiogf49gjkf0d
Window needs to be sealed with non resonant baffle.

416's sound spectacular in inf baffle !

May be possible to horn load to a corner using standard
good design precedents with good throat coupling like my
previous picture

This picture: Back of 416's in basement
08-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
audiofilofine
Posts 29
Joined on 02-26-2010
Post #: 9
Post ID: 14325
Reply to: 14321
Horn
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Horn Savant wrote:
Window needs to be sealed with non resonant baffle.

416's sound spectacular in inf baffle !

May be possible to horn load to a corner using standard
good design precedents with good throat coupling like my
previous picture

This picture: Back of 416's in basement


please send photo of front of horn and dimension.
thanks.
08-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Horn Savant


Posts 10
Joined on 08-15-2010
Post #: 10
Post ID: 14330
Reply to: 14325
Cnr Loading
fiogf49gjkf0d
Final exit ~ 1M x 2M crn loaded (yielding 1/4 given mouth cut-off frequency)

With 416's bass can be devastatingly spectacular !

The general public have no concept of the efficacy of large bass horns
08-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
audiofilofine
Posts 29
Joined on 02-26-2010
Post #: 11
Post ID: 14332
Reply to: 14330
Horn
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Horn Savant wrote:
Final exit ~ 1M x 2M crn loaded (yielding 1/4 given mouth cut-off frequency)

With 416's bass can be devastatingly spectacular !

The general public have no concept of the efficacy of large bass horns



thanks the woofers are on the floor? so I could implement them without problems. You can make a drawing of horn?
08-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 12
Post ID: 14333
Reply to: 14332
The 20Hz horn on 416s
fiogf49gjkf0d
Audiofilofine, if you do not mind then can you name you posts more identifiably and not with the same name?

On the subject:  I do not think that drawing shall be important to you. If you build as you say 20Hz horn then the design of the horn will be more than 80% depended on the layout of your room, location of your playback and the objective HOW you intend to use and integrate that horn.

Horn Savant, the 416’s are good drivers, they in contrary to many other Altec 15 inchers have very good dynamic rise – they just do not stop and are gin up and up. What was your resonant frequency after loading? The 416 are 25Hz drivers, after loading and with two drivers it might be deep in teens. From the picture it looks like you keep the back chamber of extra large space, or even wide open. Did you find in this situation that the cone is a bit “loose?”

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
audiofilofine
Posts 29
Joined on 02-26-2010
Post #: 13
Post ID: 14334
Reply to: 14333
20hz horn
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Audiofilofine, if you do not mind then can you name you posts more identifiably and not with the same name?



The Cat


???????????



plan   window on 4,5 mt side

and photo
08-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
audiofilofine
Posts 29
Joined on 02-26-2010
Post #: 14
Post ID: 14336
Reply to: 14334
20hz horn
fiogf49gjkf0d
 audiofilofine wrote:
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Audiofilofine, if you do not mind then can you name you posts more identifiably and not with the same name?



The Cat


???????????



plan   window on 4,5 mt side

and photo

photo
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_KH-wqciCnKk/Sj8h92JJHAI/AAAAAAAAAp4/kkazY0gHdco/s1600-h/DSCI0126.JPG

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_KH-wqciCnKk/Sj8h92JJHAI/AAAAAAAAAp4/kkazY0gHdco/s1600-h/DSCI0126.JPG

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_KH-wqciCnKk/SjebP6pUnXI/AAAAAAAAAmI/WopfpeXkqy4/s1600-h/DSCI0009.JPG

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_KH-wqciCnKk/Scqizd3p8YI/AAAAAAAAAbQ/KHAV9AERubU/s1600-h/DSCI0196.JPG

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_KH-wqciCnKk/ScqizKDxMBI/AAAAAAAAAbI/BLrV2a-Wy2s/s1600-h/DSCI0197.JPG
08-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 15
Post ID: 14338
Reply to: 14336
I do not think it worth to continue.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 audiofilofine wrote:

???????????
  
Come on, audiofilofine, it is simple to understand, I monitor (and I am sure others do the same) new pots from home page where presented just titles of the posts. If you name all your posts with the same subjects then I have no idea if it was old or new post. Is it too difficult to title the posts distinctly?  
 audiofilofine wrote:
photo of room

Well it is obviously a communication problem but it is OK/ I hope it is a linguistic problem but not the problem of interaction to a complex subject. Audiofilofine, the pictures you presented have absolutely no relevancy to what you are asking or intend to do. to make a pair of 20Hz horns (I still have no idea why you need them) require an evaluation of your room, house, layouts and space outside of the room. The integrations methods need to be well-thought. Substantial planning, preparation and consideration of many factors (including social) need to be made. Of course it is if you want proper result but not just another audio fart-machine. If you look at my midbass horn project then you will see that it took a few month of preparation and planning. Do not forget that my horn is 42Hz, you are taking about 20Hz horn. It is not juts 4 time larger but 44 time more problematic and complex.
 
The most important thing is that all work and analyses you will be doing shall be made by and for you. No one will assist you with anything meaningful, so do not expect that some would post for you some kind of plans that would give to you your 20Hz horn. if you do not feel comfortable to navigate  and to administer  the project yourself them find you local horn maker, bring them home and commission them to design for you’re a pair of 20Hz horn. I am not talking the detail building plans but rather about the strategic design idea that you eventual will develop into something meaningful and tangible. No one will help you “over the phone”.
 
Anyhow, I was as constrictive and honest with you as I can. Generating the proper system design idea implies to ask yourself proper questions. I gave you some answers that you did not ask yourself yet. Now the ball in your court and it is up to you what to do with it.

Rgs, Romy the Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-28-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Horn Savant


Posts 10
Joined on 08-15-2010
Post #: 16
Post ID: 14343
Reply to: 14333
416 resonance
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
. What was your resonant frequency after loading? The 416 are 25Hz drivers, after loading and with two drivers it might be deep in teens. From the picture it looks like you keep the back chamber of extra large space, or even wide open. Did you find in this situation that the cone is a bit “loose?”

The Cat


I think it's about the same as free-air resonance - backwave to entire basement. Precedent: pre-war theatre horns
(open rear like Shearer/ERPI)(unlike post-war reflex tuned designs like Altec A4)(I don't like reflex boxes - did not like
416 in Altec 620 box)
that live with resonant amplitude rise. Cone control seems reasonable within moderate power limits. Modern movie/TV
mixing has some massive deep low bass which could damage some drivers without subsonic hi-pass filter.
08-28-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Horn Savant


Posts 10
Joined on 08-15-2010
Post #: 17
Post ID: 14344
Reply to: 14332
Big horn in house not easy
fiogf49gjkf0d
 audiofilofine wrote:
 Horn Savant wrote:
Final exit ~ 1M x 2M crn loaded (yielding 1/4 given mouth cut-off frequency)

With 416's bass can be devastatingly spectacular !

The general public have no concept of the efficacy of large bass horns



thanks the woofers are on the floor? so I could implement them without problems. You can make a drawing of horn?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Woofers on floor for "infinite-baffle"

As Romy says, this is not easy, you must adapt to your situation. And have a house/building you can 'hack' a bit -
like some of those exotic Japan/Euro experimental large horns we see now and then.

You have some good drivers there - and what looks like a ~100hz GOTO horn !
08-28-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 18
Post ID: 14346
Reply to: 14343
Same as free-air resonance?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Horn Savant wrote:

I think it's about the same as free-air resonance - backwave to entire basement. Precedent: pre-war theatre horns
(open rear like Shearer/ERPI)(unlike post-war reflex tuned designs like Altec A4)(I don't like reflex boxes - did not like
416 in Altec 620 box)
that live with resonant amplitude rise. Cone control seems reasonable within moderate power limits. Modern movie/TV
mixing has some massive deep low bass which could damage some drivers without subsonic hi-pass filter.

Actually it is incorrect. If back of your 416 drivers are in free-air and you have 20Hz exponential ¼ size then those drivers have sub 10Hz resonance and you are losing some bass at 20Hz. I do not know what kind horn you have and I do not particularly believe in 20Hz hors but if you would like you can drive the resonance of your drivers up and I think you shall get a lot benefits.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-29-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Horn Savant


Posts 10
Joined on 08-15-2010
Post #: 19
Post ID: 14359
Reply to: 14346
Measured 416 Resonance + Horn
fiogf49gjkf0d
The KOSS Electrostatic unit was still installed , so I removed 
and checked resonance .

The resonance was 136 HZ. I then tested it in horn assembly 
and the result was the same : 136 HZ. Appears to be rather poor throat coupling.
But it was, as I suspected (in other thread ), outside its operating range < 80 HZ.

I then tested the two 416's in free air and they were 28 HZ each. Then I tested them in the
horn - both drivers driven with signal and measured 23 HZ resonance. Better throat coupling
- better than, say, a Shearer or Mirrophonic folded stacked "W". But, like these, probably more of a
"waveguide" than true well coupled exponential loading.

I think it's about the same as free-air resonance -

Actually it is incorrect. If back of your 416 drivers are in free-air and you have 20Hz exponential ¼ size then those drivers have sub 10Hz resonance and you are losing some bass at 20Hz. I do not know what kind horn you have and I do not particularly believe in 20Hz hors but if you would like you can drive the resonance of your drivers up and I think you shall get a lot benefits.
08-29-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 20
Post ID: 14360
Reply to: 14359
Excursion vs. equalization
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Horn Savant wrote:
I then tested the two 416's in free air and they were 28 HZ each. Then I tested them in the horn - both drivers driven with signal and measured 23 HZ resonance. Better throat coupling - better than, say, a Shearer or Mirrophonic folded stacked "W". But, like these, probably more of a "waveguide" than true well coupled exponential loading.

Yes, you are absolutely correct. It looks like your bass horn is more direct radiator then horn loading, I intentionally do not use phrase "waveguide" as I do not understand this concept. With horns everything is very smile there are only 3 parameters that defile horn: profile, throat size and dB equalization at mouth frequency. It looks like your horn has insufficient amount of air in the horn bell for a given throat size. There is nothing wrong in it but if your divers move from 28HZ in free air to 23HZ loaded then the bottom knee of your useable range is managed by excursion of the driver, not by the horn equalization.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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