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10-23-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 121
Post ID: 12043
Reply to: 12038
The absolute minimum dimensions and the 'new' attic ideas.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Looking at different properties and trying to in my mind to arrange the setting in my new listening room I have concluded the absolute minimum dimensions of the room. In case the midbass horns are NOT in the room, the room has over 12” or a cathedral ceiling and Macondo is more or less just replicated in larger space then I think the reasonable minimum dimensions of the room I would like to be 19-20 by 25 feet. My estimate suggests that 17’-18’ rooms are too narrow for my goals; again I am talking about the bare minimum. The larger room with 25’ with and more are fine but still Macondo will be installed in 19’ width footprint.

About an ideal solution. From what I have seen the very cool setting would be to have 23 by 30 feet room with cathedral ceiling with high pitch attached to a “conventional” roof house. The conventional roof house has triangular roofs with attic and when the cathedral ceiling meets the triangular roofs of conventional house then the space of attic shape a wall on the back of the cathedral ceiling room. This wall in my view is a phenomenal location to install the back fairing midbass horns in very much time-align configuration.

Horns_At_attic.JPG




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-23-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
miab
Canada
Posts 46
Joined on 02-07-2008

Post #: 122
Post ID: 12044
Reply to: 12043
Condensation issue's in Boston
fiogf49gjkf0d
Since your drivers would contain metal and your are mounting them in an unconditioned space, the warm air (in winter) from the conditioned space ( the listening room) would condense on the the first cold surface within the horns. The wood horn would also condense on the inside but you might not be so concerned as the drying factor and tolerance of wood/plywood to moisture is not as critical as metal. You must contain the entire horn and driver within conditioned space. This would effectively (because the horns are so large) turn the attic into conditioned space. Even if you insulated the horns on their exterior surface, in summer because of interior air conditioning, condensation would collect on the exterior of the horn under the insulation. That is even worse because the moisture would be trapped with no drying factor. Ideal the home would be entirely cathedral ceilings and you can create a partition if necessary to isolate your sound room. Nothing wrong with horns hanging above the dining room table or the bedroom in the other room?Smile
Turning the attic into condioned space is straightforward. Remove insulation in ceiling joists and polyurathane the underside of the roof leaving 1" or 2" of breathing space from soffit to a ridge vent at the peak. But if going through this trouble might as well open the ceiling to view the presumably lovely horns.
10-23-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 123
Post ID: 12045
Reply to: 12044
An active thermo-stabilized blanket around back chamber?
fiogf49gjkf0d

Miab, I have very limited knowledge in construction techniques, moist prevention and how all of it might affect a big horn. My very uneducated production suggests me that it is not truly a bid deal, but of cause if go this route then I certainly will consult with specialists.

Still, the back of the horn is sealed, with strong walls. What is differences my driver sit not in box in not climate controlled storage or if it sit inside the horn in attic” I think it the same. In fact in horn it has some ventilation via the mouth. Yes, attic cone run very hot (bad for ALNICO magnets) and might go cold. The cold 15” driver would have stiffer suspension and different Fs and Q. Still, I do not think that it might be terminal or dangers for a driver.

Nevertheless, it might be a good idea to THINK about it. Perhaps it would make scene if the driver in attic or outside to put whole back chamber in thermo-protective cocoon? There are some polymers that can run hot or cool from very low voltage and I have seen some thermo-stabilizing pad were made with them. I guess they might exist in shape of blanket… A good idea to think about it is the back chamber will be exposed.

My primary concern is not driver but the horn itself. If it will be attic and let say 12 feet horn will be made from “young” wood then after a year of sitting in attic the wood will be “loosing it’s youth” and the horn would need some “help”. I do not know, I need let professions to consult me about it.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-23-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 124
Post ID: 12047
Reply to: 12043
Costs, Expectations and Open Space
fiogf49gjkf0d
Miab is correct about condensation issues and the need to consider what will go into conditioned vs. unconditioned spaces.  And how much it costs will be decided by typical local costs for the project in question, with no consideration whatsoever for lay "expectations".  It's generally lots cheaper to get professional estimates before committing to such a project.

Re: "Vaulted Ceilings"...

Is THE STRATEGY still to "overload" the room (or to at least have the capacity to do so, cleanly)?

I have gotten good-ish results with a small-ish 1/2-vaulted room, but the vaulting is like a mirror of the sprung floor in that it tends to have "effects" on the sound.

Of course I have no idea how much energy your current system produces.  I ass-u-me from reading along that it produces many times what I have (and this to better effect...).  Regardless, if the goal is to really load the room, then beware of the high, vaulted ceilings.  Sure, space around the speakers can be wonderful; but too much dead space can be deadly.

Best regards,
Paul S
10-23-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
miab
Canada
Posts 46
Joined on 02-07-2008

Post #: 125
Post ID: 12049
Reply to: 12047
Demise of the r2000 home
fiogf49gjkf0d
Be very carefull in the advice taken from 'professional opinions'. Be as skeptical of these opinions as you are of audio opinions. In construction, maybe more than audio, everyone thinks their opinion is gold. Even city codes are often incorrect when it comes to moisture control in construction. Case in point. Early R2000 homes which were all the rave of the 70-80's have a lifespan in some cases of 20-30 years. In their quest for insulating value without proper thought of moisture control this homes actually rotted from inside out. Where as some 200 year old barns are still standing because of their drafty and drying factor nature. Joseph Lstiburek, could be considered a leading professional in this respect.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?%5Fencoding=UTF8&sort=relevancerank&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Joseph%20Lstiburek

What you are suggesting is much different then storing drivers in attics. There is no temperature difference plane where the driver is stored. Special consideration must be taken where cold meets warm. At that point there is a condensing potential. Air barrier is just as imprtant as insulation barrier.You MUST properly engineer a drying mechanism into your construction. A blanket of insulation alone will not suffice. I wouldn't make it a big deal if it were not for the delicate nature of a sound driver (paper, aluminum, voice coil thin copper...). If it was just bulk structure..even early r2000 homes outlasted their original owners. It's the second or third that got the surprise.

If it was me. Condition the attic space as you would your home with all construction changes needed. Or polyurethane foam spray (thickly) the entire horn and driver back but you would have to create an access door to your driver that would need fine detailed workmanship. This takes care of both vapour (air) barrier and insulating value plus would allow you to manipulate the resonance of horn.
12-21-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 126
Post ID: 12522
Reply to: 11190
External 15” into 4’x6’ from Audio 1954
fiogf49gjkf0d

ExternalMidbassHorn_Audio_1954.jpg




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-25-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Markus
Posts 68
Joined on 03-07-2007

Post #: 127
Post ID: 12765
Reply to: 12522
Romy, you can stop searching
fiogf49gjkf0d
http://cgi.ebay.com/Bass-Horns-for-Ale-Western-Electric-JBL-Altec-Drivers_W0QQitemZ300388291899
01-25-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 128
Post ID: 12767
Reply to: 12765
I see nothing to be overwhelmed…
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Markus wrote:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Bass-Horns-for-Ale-Western-Electric-JBL-Altec-Drivers_W0QQitemZ300388291899

I have seen it and I do not like it. I applaud to the efforts but the pictures of horns do not make me aroused.  47 feet will give you around 5msec delay – this is a LOT. The horn itself is just a part of the game. The key is how it was used, how it was fixed into the room. How the rest of the channels were organized with respect to the given large mouth. That is very complex and to do it properly it is much more complex then to built 47 feet horn. The horn like this might look like an impressive accomplishment but it might have very limited use, if any use at all. If it is done properly then people do not sell those things but they die with them, probably inside of them...

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-25-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Markus
Posts 68
Joined on 03-07-2007

Post #: 129
Post ID: 12771
Reply to: 12767
On a more serious note
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, your stance is that all a horn does is provide equalization. Is a horn the best way to provide equalization at the frequencies that are this thread's subject? I would think that a careful arrangement of direct radiators would avoid quite a lot of problems that the horn introduces.
01-25-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 130
Post ID: 12772
Reply to: 12771
By "Careful Arrangement"
fiogf49gjkf0d

Markus, I speak as a non-commited direct radiator guy when I say that the horn EQ as a raw principle is a very powerful model that theoretically opens the door to the sort of overall efficiency that direct radiators can only dream of.  Then I will turn right around and say that if one is OK with low(er) efficiency, then indeed, horns look like a lot more trouble and expense than they would otherwise be worth.  Ironically (?), I think that many of my own hi-fi shortfalls are tied to compromises I've made with respect to efficiency, which is always a factor, after all; it's not like that just goes away.

Still, I believe that the key to any successful hi-fi installation is tied up in the idea of "careful arrangement", since care with implementing highly-developed demands will probably have more to do with success in the end than topology will.  Trite words by now, but still true.

Best regards,
Paul S

01-25-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Saturntube
Posts 24
Joined on 07-08-2005

Post #: 131
Post ID: 12774
Reply to: 12772
My troubles with direct radiators
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have been playing around with speakers for a long time, and things started snapping when I got into horns.  I have a system right now with an upperbass horn from 140 hz turned form MDF up to around 700 hz, to another horn, and another and a super tweeter.  Now for midbass I have 2 pcs 10" drivers per side only to go from say 150 hz down to 50-60 hz (this can be movable) crossing over to a 15" servo controlled subwoofer per side. This are nice aluminum 10" drivers set up in an independent  beautifull sealed bass cabinet with good volume,  it is made out of stainless steel reinforced pipe with several materials inside to effectively dampen the steel but keep a rigid environment. I completely hate them!  When I try to adjust volume or freq of the high pass xover I listen to deep female voices, strangely so, and this horrid woofers make a terrible resonance like they have a huge chest, so when I finally get rid of the chest resonance the midbass is completely gone,  no chest pounding bass,  no kick drum, and male voices sound thin,  I try to cut the lower end of the drivers and raise the subwoofer up to say 70-80hz and this helps a bit but it is still midbass shy, as soon as i touch the volume knob on the horrid midbass drivers that resonance starts again...  A friend said,  easy solution,  get a remote volume control just for those drivers and you can lower or raise the volume depending on the CD you are playing,  or well the song you are playing,  well really the part of the song......  IMO the problem is this drivers are too slow for the complementing horns in the system, if I were to cross over to a mid range driver or a ubicuos tweeter crossed at 2khz the woofers would sound just fine!  but my system would be crap!I am now experimenting with bigger faster drivers and even tapped horn designs,  but the cabinets are not so nice!So this thread of a huge midbass horn is, at least for me, a way to show me how much of a wimp I am that I still dont have a house breaking midbass horn!
01-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 132
Post ID: 12775
Reply to: 11190
The first interesting arrangement
fiogf49gjkf0d
I find an interring house that I like. Ironically it is very much not what I was looking audio-wise. It has a lot of real-estate lucidness and I feel it has a lot of very interesting audio opportunities. The listening room is small, 2 times smaller than I would consider but the way HOW the room located in the house makes it very attractive. The 19 by 20 feet room has high-pitch cathedral selling and very wide opening to everywhere. The combined volume of the room becomes very nice - over 800sq feet. The room is suspended, which sucks – it will take a LOT of power to pump lover bass over that room – forget tube electronics. All together is look very nice and feel it has a lot of opportunity. Do not ask me questions about the time alignment of the midbass horn – I do not know yet.

NewRoom_Posible.JPG



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 133
Post ID: 12776
Reply to: 12775
Loading Zone
fiogf49gjkf0d

Romy, I realize that you have a good deal more acoustic drive available than I do, but here is my experience, FWIW:  I lived in a larger version of a very similar configuration for 13 years.  My listening room was in "the same" spot as you picture, with a 20' high 1/2 vaulted ceiling.   I could not really load it with 100 wpc (RM9) driving 92 dB 5-way speakers (Fulton modulars), despite a solid slab floor and a longer [reflective] wall section opposite the drivers.  I got some very nice sound at times, but no real room loading I could build on.  Later, I got some nice sound and very nice ambience (when the power was good) with 7 wpc Wright 2A3 SETs driving the 97 dB DEBZs, but this combo would not load the room properly, either.  IMO, the ML2s are at the peg driving the DEBZs into a 17' X 21' X 8' hard-plastered room with raised, carpeted floors.  What there is of LF has some redeeming qualities, but nothing serious yet.  I am a hopeful guy, and I still believe I can tweak my way toward a more loaded room; but I am not where I'd like to be, with plenty of power to burn.

As we have discussed, much can be done with a raised floor if there is underfloor access and a way to solidly shore up the floor from the ground under it.  OTOH, the classic yuppie "apartment", with raised, carpeted floors and high, vaulted ceilings (volume!), and no way to shore up the floors, is the ultimate energy sink.

I am not sure from the little reading I have done on the subject, but I think there is a whole school of followers that aim the speakers directly at their ears and they do not try to load the room.  Duddleston (sp?), Geddes and some others, I think, might have some ideas for people who cannot or do not want to load their rooms.  I have no serious idea how they would do LF.  If I had to guess, I would guess biased plate amps or similar exponential power schemes.

Paul S

01-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 134
Post ID: 12779
Reply to: 12776
An interesting room-loading post
fiogf49gjkf0d

An interesting post, Paul, thanks. It looks like my fear or bass loading of this room were not accidental. If I get this room then it would be even worse in my case. Your have solid slab floor –something that I would like to have. But this house does not have it. What it has is 1700sq feet basement under it as shitty floor with holes in the listening room. I perfectly understand the frustration of the people who would love to pump that space of neat 3400 sq foot from a pair of speaker with imbedded bass drivers. Would it be big Wilsons of small monitors with yellow driver is irrelevant. There is in that my perspective house some feature that kind of unique and made me really like it. This front wall behind the speakers is very easy removable and the room can be easily reconfigurable into “no back wall” type of the configuration. So, we are taking about truly near infinite bass loading scenario… I did not play with it a lot but I certainly would not attack the problem with driving my bass horns lower as some idiots do (The Oswald Mill idiot with his repulsive bass would the first who come to my mind).

So, I think with a proper dedicated LF modules and enough power of amplification this space might be handled. The house has a lot of hidden positive moments for bass enforcement that I have recognized and a lot of bad things for the same bass task. How all those bad and good things will work all together is very hard to say. I would like to see the faces of those people when I ring LF speaker with real-time analyzer to the home inspection….

Anyhow, I have a good feeling about this one. I do not know if I get good sound in there but this room is very inspiring for me canvas to replicate my sound but in larger scale and more comfortable listening. Let see how it goes….

THe Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 135
Post ID: 12780
Reply to: 12779
Will the Cat become an “industry professional”?
fiogf49gjkf0d
If I were an idiot and were interested to sell audio from home, as many dealers do, then…. if I get this new houses then I might open a business with a cool intricate name: “The Battle Road Audio”.  Here is the quandary to the readers of this site: why such a name?  The winner of the guess competition will get… pretty much nothing. But I need to admit that the name “The Battle Road Audio” is very attractive in the context.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 136
Post ID: 12782
Reply to: 12780
The tremendous opportunity.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Ok, I do officially like this “Battle Road” hours. Upon many considerations (and there are 4 ways to implement the midbass horn in that room) I have inclined to my leading idea to do it elegant and with time alignment.  The drawing below and a above are way out right proportion and dimensions are by my visual assessment. Still the idea is there.  I am considering to put two straight, irregular pentagon  or heptagon shaped, 12’-13’, Hypobaric 0.7, 45Hz horns in the attic of the house and to have the mouths to fire into the bid room. This will kill with one hit the following objectives:

1)      Not notable in the room

2)      Time-alignable

3)      Not direct radiation and allowing wave maturation

4)      Do not destroy property too much

5)      Kill the fist reflection for the MF channels

6)      Elegant.

I do see in this a tremendous opportunity.

NewRoom_Posible2.jpg

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zanon
Posts 54
Joined on 11-14-2009

Post #: 137
Post ID: 12783
Reply to: 12776
Aim direct radiators at ears
fiogf49gjkf0d
Paul S:

My room setup is way too large. Vaulted ceilings, and this huge L where my listening area is in the top half of the L's spine (|) and the (_) is dining area and a corridor. It gets worse, there is also open space to the kitchen etc. etc. So it's more like a U_ is that makes any sense.

Raised floor and carpet on top of that.

So I say screw it and point speakers to my ears, and corner load subwoofer. btw. more power does not really solve the problem. You can get LF to start "throbbing" in the area, but the room simply does not load.
01-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zanon
Posts 54
Joined on 11-14-2009

Post #: 138
Post ID: 12784
Reply to: 12780
Why call it "Battle Road"
fiogf49gjkf0d
...the house is close to Paul Revere's ride?
01-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 139
Post ID: 12785
Reply to: 12784
The second American Revolution?
fiogf49gjkf0d

Yep, you were close. The listening room is looking right to the conservation land, in the middle of which there was the original Battle Road. So, that proverbial “shot that was heard around the world” was fired some in the backyard of that house.

http://www.woburnhistoricalsociety.com/images/buildingsandsites/battleroad.htm

I was talking with city hall’s housing authority and was inquiring about any perspective lend development and I was told that this conservation land is dead-untouchable. They told however that sometimes they have minutemen reenactment in the conservation - I afraid that it will be where I was planning to install my antenna tower. If I get the house then I would need to register as a republican and apply to a license to put some landmines around my antenna tower. If any of those minutemen will interfere with my Bruckner then I will start a second American Revolution...

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 140
Post ID: 12786
Reply to: 12783
Atmospheric Pressure vs Tonal Pressure
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Zanon, I know exactly what you are saying. Actually, the tonal pressure is not common anywhere, mostly because few people understand it, but also because one needs to develop and maintain broad spectrum pressure in the room, not just the LF farts, and not just noise, and this takes a lot of work, since there is no plug-and-play solution nor even an "industry" model for this.  It can be pretty tough to do it in a large space or a soft space, all right, and it is about impossible in a large soft space without taking fairly drastic measures. 

In trying to cope with these problems, I have messed with "anti-damping treatments" with some success.  Basically, you use hard surfacces, possibly including heavy "screens" to deflect the sound, and you get as much of the over-stuffed stuff out of the area as you can.  Also, not everyone will do it, but there are structurally acceptable ways to put tile on raised floors, and area rugs over tile are not the problem that carpet over padding is in these situations.  Hard to guess about WAF, but there should be tasteful solutions if the will and the aesthetic are joined in the enterprise.

Or, for any number of reasons you might be a candidate for the Synergy horn, or the like.  I've not heard one, but what I have read makes me very curious for someone else to buy one.

Best regards,
Paul S
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