My definition of “Japanese sound” is different than yours and I do not feel that Japanese sound is characterized by “tilted up high frequencies character”.

http://www.RomyTheCat.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=1959

I think if you are accustom to “tilted up high frequencies character” from Japanese products the then it is an indication to me that you use driver with too high magnetic force in gap, that from my point of view the new  GOTO are most likely might be. It makes too fast harmonic roll out of notes to their pitches and makes the sound to have “tilted up high frequencies character”. This begs is VERY simple to model with electromagnet driver – I did it many times. Juts for sake of experiment you might want to complicate it a bit by loading the output stages of your amps twice harder. You might do it is “quick and dirty way” by shorting your GOTO drivers with 16R-8R resistor and it will give you an indication if the direction is right.

Anyhow, thanks for your toughs sharing about GOTO.  I will give a ride to the SG-37FRP when is become available to me and will see how it goes. Frankly my primary interests are not GOTO but the midbass ALE compression drivers; however SG-37FRP might be a good parley to look into what those “exotic” Japanese drivers are all about.

twogoodears wrote:

I personally NEVER heard unmusical/unbalanced gears, among "classic" transductors: YL-Yoshimura Labs, ALE, Goto, Kanno, Eltus, Coral...

twogoodears wrote:

Horns drivers from home listening are, must be differently built from industrial/P.A. drivers, period.

I would discard the first part of your post. It is it truly irrelevant what Germans, French, Japanese or Brits were buying and what particular brand and in what time they consider as “fashionable”. It is know that Ebay or Akibahara popularity has absolutely not impact on me as I know/knew quite a number of Morons who slogan is the “Akibahara Sound Forever”. I do not like the mind of those people and they NEVER demonstrated any sound that I find interning for myself. Those people just do not present a challenge to my interests.

Your attempt to define high-fidelity as a next level of “naturalness and detail reachable” is not something that I would agree but we are not talking now what is high-fidelity is. The subject was a conceptual difference between pro-audio drivers (which most of them are) and drivers that were made for home use (presumably the Goto, ALE, YL, etc…). You said that drivers for home listening must be differently built from PA drivers. I might agree and I would like to expend on it. From what you said I presume that you feel that Japanese Goto, ALE, YL and ALE are different from let say Japanese TOA or Fostex, not to mention many western pro audio drivers. I proposed to define what the difference is.

You might feel that the difference is in sound with all of those: “subtleties, the airy, transparent, life-like beauty”. It might be so, but let to define why the home use drivers are so supposedly different.

The diaphragms in there are not ultra-light as you reports, in fact they are comparable to the pro drivers. The entire design of the drivers is not different then pro drivers. Japanese very seldom invent the things, they are very good for adoption and expending and it is exactly what Japanese home drivers did. The phase plugs, the magnetic structures, the suspensions of the cones, the wiring of the voice coils, and the configuration of polls of the gaps are no different with “home use” drivers then we can see with pro audio drivers. Even the amount of flux in the “home use drivers” and “pro audio drivers” is the same – there are some Goto that run 1.8T and there are pro audio driver that run 2.4T. The “dispersion in room” that you mentioned is also is very much not the area of “home drivers” advantage.

So, what I am trying to bring up is some king of rational that would give some base why the “home use driver” might be different then “pro use”. There are only two areas what I think might have SOME lucidness: the type of core and type of magnets. The type of magnates is controversial. The pro drivers in most of the cases do not give dams want magnets they use – as long then get marked amount of magnetic density in gap they are happy.  I presume that home-drivers are peakier and they might use the very specific magnets that they select by sonic considerations. I said it is controversial because nowadays the magnet production is very much globalised and everyone but the very much same magnets.  Put in this way: with the volumes that “home drivers” consume the have no chose but to use magnets from the same barrel as anybody else.

The core material for the magnetic structure might be the only area where I feel the “home drivers” might go crazy. They might use some permendurian type or whatever “exotic” it might be. The material of those things does affect sound.  BTW, it is not so expensive stuff. The “pro drivers” never used it generally and they just do not need it. If the JBL, Selenium, BMS or Pyle would decide to do cut their core with some king of cobalt and nickel steal then it would make their drivers to cost $25 more. In the case of the home-oriented Goto, ALE, YL and ALE it get transferred into very deferent price tags but the artificially inflated price for those things is a whole another subject.

So, I do not feel that there is a true “home use” and “pro use” compression drivers. There are certainly the difference, HUGE difference, between the “home objectives” and “pro objectives”. There are also a HUGE difference in the design decisions that people make when they built PA system and home systems. I think it is to much-much less degree would relate to “home drivers” and “PA drivers”. I think it would be more like the sound of “regulators tubes” vs. the tubes that were “designed for Sound”. Come on! Let be real about it. NO ONE ever design this thing in pro audio worlds for sound. the folks who design for home use might have luxury to care about Sound – the is good. However, then we need to define what they were trying to accomplish.  The good people from GOTO looks like “design for home”, that is good, but the very same people insist that time aliment of the drivers have no difference. Dose this disquiet the GOTO designers then from the people who have “higher objectives”. Any single GOTO system that I have seen online pile up the channels in absolute ransomed fashion – is it the way how the “home drivers” shell be used?  Any single ALE system that I have seen online used digital crossover and the owners report that there no problem with it. Do I need to consider that digital crossover is a mandatory attribute of the “home drivers” as well?

The point that am trying to make is that the subject of the “home use“ driver vs. the “pro use drivers” is a bit complicated and the thing are not so clear as you, Stefano, is trying to present it to yourself.

Romy!

Just to be cleared, GOTO has never claimed that time alignment is not important nor to suggest their customer that time alignment is not important.  In a home listening environment, it is very difficult to do time alignment with a 3 or 4 way horn system.  Yes.  if one has the room and space, one should consider it but if one does not have the room and space, one should not go crazy about the time alignment issue.  Most GOTO system that you have seen fall into the "not have enough room and space" home listening environment.  If one can do time alignment, by all means, should do it.  But, if that is not practical and limited by room and space, don't get too carry away and worry about time alignment, afterall, that is not the only factor to determine and define a good sound system.

Again, I suggest that you send your SG37 driver to GOTO to make sure the drivers are in good condition before your evaluation.  It is not free but well worth the cost.

Ming

Ok, I would agree with this. The power handling is the factor that I forgot to mention. The Japanese home drivers are rated for a few watts vs. the pro driver are rated for hundreds watts.  BTW, some of older pro drivers (like my Vitavox) were also rated for a few watts.

What however, we need to pay attention is not a power rating but how much advance the low power rating would give to the home use drivers. With just a few watts of power rating the drivers that meant for “home use” might use way voice coils tunes of much smaller gauge, use rectangular wire and to wind it tighten, make the lighter voice coils or even the voice coils coil made by this foil. This would minimize the inertia of the movable part of the driver and make the driver to be more reactive to lower signals. This is certainly an advantage.

What I would wordy in this approach is about the satiation what somebody by $20K for a pair of 5W drivers and decide to use it in his/her 1000sq feet room.  It is not out of the realm of imposable. So would it mean that 300B amp at full power will overheat or burn up the $20K driver? Pay attrition we know NOTHING about the stats of the driver like GOTO and how tolerant they are for power. I wish this subject had some exposure as well.

Anyhow, the lower power handling for the home drives and consequential of lower moving mass is the factor.

Ming,

what you say is not exactly accurate. I have MANY desiccations about it with number Goto users in past and if I am not mistaken then even some kind GOTO official from past event argued this point with me. He insisted that Goto require 4th order crossover and no time alignment. I was explaining to him the he was an idiot but he did stand resolute.  According to him with Goto drivers that time alignment is not so critical and it was like this years after years the Goto position. Frankly it was one of the major position why always did not take them seriously.

What even more interesting is that you are the US distributor, a very much official person and you make the comment like this: “If one has the room and space, one should consider it but if one does not have the room and space, one should not go crazy about the time alignment issue.” It has absolutely nothing to do with room and space and unless people use bass horns the time alignment it never a problem. The problem is when people go into very deep observations about the particulars of a given compression driver sound but are blind to very major problems that come from time-misalignment.

To have a sense of sight is possible absolutely mandatory requirements for the people who want to be truck drivers. To have a sense of hearing is possible absolutely mandatory requirements for the people who want to play musicians. To be athletically fit is mandatory requirement for a play in sport at certain professional level. A person might not be any of it but them probably the person is not qualified to claim any advanced driving techniques, of record sport results. The very same is with drivers. The time-alignment is absolutely mandatory and not obligatory condition. If the condition is not enforced ten all bets are off. If a person does not get it then there is absolutely nothing to talk with him about the sound if his horns drivers and he is clueless.

Funny but I assure you that most of your Goto customers are in fact clueless and if you with them to more enjoy your Goto drivers then you must to start very aggressive and very firm demand for time alignment. Not time-aligned must not be heard – big fat and very confident period!

BTW, one of the reasons why I am not so strong with trying your SG37 is because to incorporating it in Macondo in the time-aligned fashion is a bit tricky and of cause would never agree to try if without the time-alignment.

Romy!

Put on an engineer hat!

Time-aligned is an impossible task from my point of view.  How can one perfectly time align different drivers?  Align to what precision? mm, inch, cm or ft?  5%, 10%, 30% time align? Align to the tip of the cone or middle of the cone or the end of the cone?  Or to the beginnng of the throat entrance or the end of phase plug? 

In my view, if one can do it and arrange all drivers on a same vertical plane, it is better but if not, one should not worry too much about time align and should just enjoy.

Again!  Since I start working with GOTO 4 years ago, they have never recommended to use anyhting more than 2nd order - always 1st order with active crossover and 2nd order with passive crossover.

Ming

MINGSU wrote:

Time-aligned is an impossible task from my point of view.  How can one perfectly time align different drivers?  Align to what precision? mm, inch, cm or ft?  5%, 10%, 30% time align? Align to the tip of the cone or middle of the cone or the end of the cone?  Or to the beginnng of the throat entrance or the end of phase plug?

MINGSU wrote:

In my view, if one can do it and arrange all drivers on a same vertical plane, it is better but if not, one should not worry too much about time align and should just enjoy.

Romy & Dominik,

Mingsu is a DEALER... more or less about business and money, did you really expect him to be a horn expert? 

From Jeffrey Jackson:

"he has listened to Goto's advice quite a bit.. they have very strong thoughts on how to do things... some you will find humorous, others you will agree with... they beleive that electronics don't really matter.. the driver is the primary importance above all others... to them, it is silly to buy expensive electronics if you do not have double drivers on all your horns.. (I do not believe in this, at all) .. they also do not believe in time alignment... I have heard the amazing transformation that time alignment brings, both with digital correction and with physical alignment... Goto says the drivers can just go anywhere.. their philosophy is that a low distortion loudspeaker is the most important thing... "


Word of advice for Mingsu, you're gonna have a hard time selling Goto products to these dudes with that kind of comments... perhaps diyaudio.com is a better place, good luck with business.

Keith

Romy the Cat wrote:

The point that am trying to make is that the subject of the “home use“ driver vs. the “pro use drivers” is a bit complicated and the thing are not so clear as you, Stefano, is trying to present it to yourself.

Romy the Cat wrote:

If one can’t measure the VTF then put a large break atop of your cartridge and just enjoy. :-)

twogoodears wrote:

... you mean this, don't you?