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08-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 41
Post ID: 11311
Reply to: 11304
The Great Unknown
fiogf49gjkf0d
With respect to the throat, profile, etc., that's +/- what I expected earlier, germane to the earlier horn tuning in development question.  And this seems to suggest that most folks who simply math it and then stay with that result are either lucky, deaf or delusional.

Regarding a "simple"  addition, you will always require at least 5 sides for a "one-wall" addition, and likely some sort modification to the existing structure, too. You will need a foundation, a floor, walls and a roof, and you will probably need a good deal more as well, whether you like it or not.  Costs are lowest in rural areas where the weather is docile and the earth nurtures building.  Cost go up exponentailly as one moves toward and into urban areas, hot or cold areas, earthquake, hurricane, etc. areas.  Fees alone can bring strong wealthy men to tears, and building and zoning codes have been known to cause madness.

If, as you suggest, all is tre's simple, then figure on 50k minimum for masonary costruction.  But don't be surprised if it is not so simple, after all.


Best regards,
Paul S
08-08-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JLH
Indianapolis, IN U.S.A.
Posts 42
Joined on 07-20-2004

Post #: 42
Post ID: 11312
Reply to: 11310
Fourier transform tells the story
fiogf49gjkf0d

Yes, I see the need for a phasing plug for a 40Hz bass horn. Most people choose to ignore the finer details and claim the wavelengths involved are too long to be affected by phase plug. If someone really understands the fundamentals of sound origin, then a phasing plug begins to make sense.

All you have to look at is Fourier transform. All “natural” sound consists of fundamental and harmonics. If a speaker does not reproduce the harmonics correctly, then the tone is not reproduced correctly. It is the harmonics at the higher frequencies that help shape tone.



You can take a sine wave and make a square wave by taking the fundamental and adding together its harmonics. If these harmonics are not added together correctly, then you cannot reproduce the sound. Think about what will happen to the music you play if your speakers did not reproduce the harmonics correctly. The waveform would not look like the original and it will not sound true.

Low E string on a bass guitar has fundamental frequency of 41Hz. However, its 2nd and 3rd harmonics have much higher amplitudes. This is normal behavior for a lot of musical instruments. It is very common for the harmonics to have higher amplitude than the fundamental note being played. Below is the frequency response of a guitar. You can see the fundamental being played is centered at about 65Hz, however the harmonics have much more amplitude. The relationship of the harmonics to the fundamental, and the other harmonics are responsible for the tone of the instrument.



So, even if you cutoff the bass horn at 160Hz – 200Hz, it still must get these higher frequency harmonics correct for 40Hz to be reproduced correctly. The real trouble begins when you must have the mid bass horn handle the harmonics of the fundamentals coming out of the bass horn due to the crossover point. You have to get the fundamental coming from the bass horn to sum correctly with the harmonics coming out of the mid bass horn. This is very tricky to get right.

Rgs, John

08-08-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Saturntube
Posts 24
Joined on 07-08-2005

Post #: 43
Post ID: 11313
Reply to: 11311
Midbass Adjustable Horn
fiogf49gjkf0d

ConicalSectorsHorn.jpg

  I have been running around this design for a couple of months...I re-designed it just now to change some numbers according to your post. The main idea is to have a lot of posibilities in a huge horn:It is formed by conical sectors that are not too heavy and can be easily moved.These conical sectors follow a design curve (hiperborical, tactrix, exponential).Once it is put toghether it is supposed to be light enough to move it and place it properly in the room.When all tests are final and it is positioned, it can be sand filled to avoid resonances. It also has the posibility to change throat diameter and its according lenght.It could even have the posibility of taking out the last sector in order to change it from say 160cm to 2 m mouth.(though we get far from the original curve,  thats a price to pay)This could help out in choosing the right driver, or the right load for the driver. The first part, smaller and closer to the driver is made in turned MDF in very much the same way the upper bass horn is made.This damps resonances and does not contaminate magnetically the sorroundings of the driver.The throat can be adjusted by very small increases even, by taking out the first couple of MDF rings. The bigger sectors are conical and with a center chamber to be filled in with sand, these are made from sheet metal welded to thicker flanges that can be bolted toghether.The metals can be Aluminum, Stainless steel, or normal cheap magnetic, corrodable steel for testing.... I have made some Water tanks in sheet metal, and even a couple of conical upper bass horns, and I can tell it is very doable!I might have the space for testing it in a couple of weeks... But I dont think I could really fit them in my listening room. I am closing a transaction for a pair of WE 555 drivers in very good shape...so I might try them in a bent version, I want to see how low and high up they will go with a nice tone.. and build from there. Those snails look pretty complicated...  If I make it to your place, would you let me scratch the cone of that Vitavox driver too!!!
08-08-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 44
Post ID: 11317
Reply to: 11312
My take about midbass and phase plug.
fiogf49gjkf0d

John, I disagree.

No one deny the importance of harmonics and you are right saying that “If a speaker does not reproduce the harmonics correctly, then the tone is not reproduced correctly.” However you are talking about a complete speaker, not about the narrow operating midbass channel. Yes, the relationship between midbass and upperbass channels will be tricky to set properly. People do not know but people do not use the midbass horns properly. You see typically people having midbass run it all the way up unto lower MF and in THAT case you would be correct. In my case my midbass will be running in very narrow band-path and then I will have a full blown upperbass horn that has no phase plug but it has very HF-able driver, not to mention that two octave above it I have a dedicated Fundamentals channel the takes over… So, the harmonics are not problem to handle properly. In case the people run midbass too wide and particularly in case of improperly folded horns the harmonics become screwed, I would agree but not in case of narrow midbass.

I do not plan to do phase plug on my midbass. Here is for you another reason why. Midbass horn is not upperbass horn. When the upperbass horn that you made for me outputs les say 120Hz then it sends out 8.2 feet wave.  This wave is comparable with listing distance and perfectly “matured” when I reach ears. That is why you upperbass is very much direct-firing type of horn and it does wonderful. Did you try to listen your upperbass from 1-2 feet?  It has completely different upperbass sound that I do not like. In my past I have build a small setup for the position right next to my upperbass mouth. The balance was right but the upperbass was totally wrong.

Not pretend that that my midbass horn shot his 50Hz. It will be 19 feet wave or 6 Meters; the 40Hz will do 25 feet. I do plan to keep my listening distance shorter then this, probably 10-12 feet as max. So, in this scenario I will be in the zone of immature midbass. Bruce Edgar looks like fight the problem with floor firing his 35Hz refrigerator midbass. I am planning to turn off my midbass horns from the listening position to get first bounce of midbass from boundary. For instance if I hang the horn at ceiling then the will be shoring to the back wall near-parallel to ceiling or to the side of the listening position. If I in this situation will do phase plug on my midbass then the sound of the horn from EQ perspective will become directional. I do not what it and I will intentionally use it as non-directional transducer. My idea to use midbass is to load the room, this why I do not want to have overly large room – I will burn the midbass excursion and midbass amp power. The directivity, HF harmonics and the sense of acoustic bass direction with respect to a listening position I anticipate overriding with the upperbass horn.  I would not even mention that a phase plug on midbass would require high order low-pass filtration with more complex phase spin at crossover point.

So, I do not see a phase plug in my midbass. I might remotely agree with it what people use midbass in context of 2-3 ways system but in 6-ways I do not see a need for it.  Also, a phase plug adds compression to the driver.  A 15” driver loaded to 8” throat without a phase plug would have the similar completion (I think) as the same driver loaded to 10” throat with phase plug. If I would be OK with higher compression for my paper-base driver then I would rather go do smaller throat, let say 6” throat. I do not as I feel that it might make my cone too stiff and to over-dumped with compression and with consequential tone diminishing. I am not convinced that it not going to happen even with 8” throat….

Anyhow, they were just a few my own arguments that I have against the phase plug on midbass horn. I have a few more but you the picture… Warn you that I never had a properly made midbass horn and evrything that I expressed is hypothetics and extrapolations form my other experiments. But this position of mine does make sense to me, at least now.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-08-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 45
Post ID: 11318
Reply to: 11313
The interchangeable backs for midbass? I do not know…
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Jorge, that is good but a few thighs I would like to mention in this approach:

1)    What you depict will work with tractrix or conical horn but not hyperbolic curve. The hyperbolic has own “swell” into exponential curve that would make it to swell differently at different profile rate.

2)    The extensions for midbass (for different throat) will be way longer…

3)     I do not see a practical need to modify throat in midbass. Let me explain why.  If we modify throat in MF driver, let say from 2” to 1.5” then we just replace the bottom of the horn with length compensator, and not a lot of things change. In a midbass a change between 6” and 8” will be 2-3 foot length change and the would require a repositioning of the horn in new time-aligns location. So, it is not so simple, not to mention that sine you have done it one you would hardly do it again.

I have interchangeable bottom on my MF horn. How many times was even considering doing it for 8 years? None! So, I am pretty sure that if a pees make a 4M monster you depicted then it will sit in there for year and years…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-08-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 46
Post ID: 11324
Reply to: 11190
The "Hanging" inverted Midbass J-horn.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Here is an idea that I partially like. I make the horn “invisible” by using a full height of a room; I made just 12” as an example.

HangingMidbassHorn.jpg

This is basically the regular J-horns but it is INVERTED and has a few advantages over what people have done so far.

1)      It has very low footprint. You might laugh but it is.
2)      It has an easy ace to the driver
3)      It is easy to move it across the room -juts drive a new hook into ceiling and re-hand the horn
4)      It is easy to tow it off without changing a footprint
5)      In case the room have very high-ceiling it will be very well will break up the HF typical high-ceiling echo reflections
6)      It has just 3 sections
7)      It is very effectively loads ceiling that “might” allow to go even ¼ size
8)      Since it will be located into-front and on-side of MF then it will act as very effective defuser from side MF reflections, introducing a slight “life-bottom-dead-top effect.
9)      If I cover the bottom with carpet then my Koshka will have a phenomenal scratching post
10)   Since It is vertically inverted J-horn and I do not position my MF above it I have no need to castrate the profile of the bend and I might run absolutely perfect parabolic right across the bend

I show the idea to my Koshka and she like it. She told me that if she climbs all the way atop the horn then I never will be able to harass her again.

HangingMidbassHornKoshka.jpg

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 47
Post ID: 11333
Reply to: 11324
The midbass Pipeline Conversion horn???
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thinking further about my "Hanging" inverted Midbass J-horn presented above I asked myself: where is to cut this 12’-13’ horn hypothetic horn. Initially I thought to do it in order to keep the parts smaller to be able to fit them through the doors and windows. But then I hit me that if a horn would have an strategic cat in right place then it is possible top have one horn that bill be able to be installed as J-horn and as a straight horn. The mouth and the throat with the back chamber are the most expansive part of a horn to makes – right? So, what do not reuse them, having just a small middle section modifiable? Since I never saw people proposed this idea for Midbass I will name the concept as “pipeline conversion horn”. The image below is very self-explanatory.

PipelineConversionHorn.JPG

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
skushino
Seattle, WA
Posts 93
Joined on 07-07-2004

Post #: 48
Post ID: 11334
Reply to: 11333
Straight / J Horn - Why?
fiogf49gjkf0d
What is the purpose of having the flexibility to re-configure from straight to J horn?

This thing will be large and massive enough that physically moving it from one configuration to another will be difficult and require a lot of effort.  Conceptually it would be interesting to compare each configuration and learn about sound.  Nothing wrong with the idea, but due to its size and weight, is their any real-world application?  I don't think so...

I like the other poster's idea of a configurable throat, compression ratio, and back chamber.  Sure it has drawbacks too, but you could learn about the affect of different compression ratios and throat sizes on your driver's behavior.  You also gain more flexibility in case you want to use different drivers. 

If you want the ability to modify and control the sound from this horn and driver, why not focus your efforts on the throat-side instead of the mouth?
08-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 49
Post ID: 11336
Reply to: 11334
RE: Straight / J Horn – Why?
fiogf49gjkf0d

 skushino wrote:
What is the purpose of having the flexibility to re-configure from straight to J horn?

This thing will be large and massive enough that physically moving it from one configuration to another will be difficult and require a lot of effort.  Conceptually it would be interesting to compare each configuration and learn about sound.  Nothing wrong with the idea, but due to its size and weight, is their any real-world application?  I don't think so...

I like the other poster's idea of a configurable throat, compression ratio, and back chamber.  Sure it has drawbacks too, but you could learn about the affect of different compression ratios and throat sizes on your driver's behavior.  You also gain more flexibility in case you want to use different drivers. 

If you want the ability to modify and control the sound from this horn and driver, why not focus your efforts on the throat-side instead of the mouth?

I think you took it wrong. No one plan to “physically moving it from one configuration to another” and there is absolutely no my desire to have any “learning” experiments with it. If I will do it then it will be done once and right - I will know what I will do. The purpose of having the flexibility to re-configure from straight to J-horn is to have the opportunity do not redo the whole horn is you ever need to go from straight to J-horn or vice versa. To make another mid section is not expansive and complex but it would be possible ONLY if the horn is cut on the sections with the aim that it might be re-configurerable. The horn will be made with sections anyhow – so the slicing the horn on sections might be planed considering a future re-configuration.

Let me die you another scenario. You made the inverted J-horn with enter height of your room.  Instead of hanging it you attach to the mouth two legs on skates (all the way to floor) and not you have a tripod upon which the horn stay: back chamber and two legs. Now you can move your horns as the room looking for the right position using my ideas of the macro-imbedding. After you found the right position for the horns you can hang them there from ceiling but you suddenly discover that in those found positions you do have room to continue the neck of the horn as a straight horn.  In the horn is made with re-configurerable aim then you will mark the found position of mouth, flip the re-configurerable middle sections on the horns (or only on one of them) and then you hand to ceiling completely straight horns . It shall free up a lot of footprint in room and make the horns “invisible”.

Sure it I fill the hors with helium then they might float in the room themselves and I can shepherd them like a flock of geese…

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
haralanov


Bulgaria
Posts 130
Joined on 05-20-2008

Post #: 50
Post ID: 11337
Reply to: 11324
Time alignment is a real problem with this kind of horns
fiogf49gjkf0d
The idea of using this type of midbass horn seems good, but I don’t see a solution for time alignment of the horn with the other channels. You have a freedom to physical align it if it is placed in the same vertical plane with upperbass mouth, but the problem with time integration still remains open...


"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." -A.E.
08-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
skushino
Seattle, WA
Posts 93
Joined on 07-07-2004

Post #: 51
Post ID: 11338
Reply to: 11336
Two Mouths
fiogf49gjkf0d
I think I understand better now.  It is difficult for me to find storage for the endless little audio things around my house.  Good luck on storing an extra pair of 20' mouths!

On a different note, there is the issue of materials, mass, and damping.  Hanging these giants from the ceiling or wall seems to point construction in a different direction from a floor location.  Instead of relying on mass to manage damping, I was thinking that in this application lighter wood construction with some type of damping material (like the sheets they use in cars) glued on would be an alternate to mass. 

Jessie said his big horns weigh around 900# a piece.  I would worry less about the roof collapsing from a ton of load with a lighter solution.

08-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Saturntube
Posts 24
Joined on 07-08-2005

Post #: 52
Post ID: 11339
Reply to: 11338
More ideas and drawbacks
fiogf49gjkf0d
Just to answer a couple of question and post some more...

The Mouth changing sectors in the horn,  according to the preliminary data posted here, would be as follow:
For the 40 hz horn:  4¨ Throat to 6¨ = 53 cm                              6¨ Throat to 8¨= 40 cm                             8¨ Throat to 10¨= 30 cm
Yes big!
I doubt we can find a good 10" midbass driver that will go nicely down to 40 hz but if we try a Goto compresion driver we will need the 4¨ throat.
Now for 12" and 15" drivers; 8" and 10" throats would be a good testing ground.  Of course once it is properly tested and set, there should be no changes. I though tests could take place without the other channels just with the one huge horn laying on the floor and and me running back and forth 4 meters to readjust the back chamber!  And yes testing all the drivers I could get my hands on, maybe even fill with sand the chambers of the one test subject,  and drain the sand out before moving it to its final location. About time alignment, in this case with a straight horn the final location would be predetermined and macro-imbedding it would be left to chance. This would go on the top room of the house looking downwards into the listening room, time aligned according to the diagram previously posted, or side firing headphone style, with the ends "hanging" on top of the garden or inside the next room.
On a concrete house with concrete roof the weight should be no problem, with a wooden roof, other methods for damping should be used in order to keep it light.  Maybe sheet metal construction should only be used for round horns and, Wood, a more self damped lighter material is better for a square horn hanging from a wooden structure roof.

The drawback of a straight midbass horn would be the positioning,  with the J horn we can indeed move it around in a little cart,  but we do have the one bend drawback.  I have been going around on trying to use the same listening room area for the midbass horn, but having the 3-4 mts lengh of the horn and the 2m height of the mouth fit in one room is difficult geometrically, unless we do add the bend. Now, dont these look like the huge ventilation horns used on old boats?
A beautiful solution are the unluckily now extinct Carfrae horns, either the little horn which is a snail design, or the big horn which has one 180 degree bend and shoots into the corners of the room. These were back horns designed for a lowther driver, but a modification could be done simply enough to make a similar design for a front horn...

08-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Saturntube
Posts 24
Joined on 07-08-2005

Post #: 53
Post ID: 11340
Reply to: 11339
How does 40 hz to 200 hz sound like
fiogf49gjkf0d
I am sorry there is a mistake in my previous post,  anyone who has played around with a dedicated channel for a 40 to 200 hz frequency know hat the only sound coming out  is a wooo, woo, woo... Not much to do listening test by, we can measure, but tests IMHO and IME should be done with the other channels active.
Now if we do have an upperbass horn going down to 140 - 120 hz the huge monster midbass horn will be used for +- 2 octaves.
If we try a 160 hz horn with a compression driver down to 300 hz, it would be great to have the monster midbass horn go all the way up to 300 hz.I guess only tests can tell.
08-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Axel
South Africa
Posts 80
Joined on 07-18-2009

Post #: 54
Post ID: 11341
Reply to: 11340
40Hz - 200Hz and GLARE...
fiogf49gjkf0d

Hi Saturntube,
40 Hz - 200Hz = wooo, woo, wo, - hm...
Forgive me as I'm not talking about horns right now, but some sort of 4th order *acoustic* roll-off at 200Hz may apply with a horn as it would, e.g. with a second order cross-over in a box-speaker and an 8" woofer. (Woofer here rolls off naturally at ~ 2nd order due to it's construction).

What actually happens: there is still PERCEIVABLE energy at ~ 3kHz, believe it or not - I've tested it.
Now why mention this?
In fact, the woo, woo, woo may contain some perceivable MF/HF energy that becomes an issue with e.g. cross-over components used.
When e.g. trying to "improve" some electrolytic capacitor power-factor, say 220uF in an RCL and using a by-pass cap of only 1uF you can very well throw out your whole midrange presentation! One more example: a 82uF electrolytic with a 0.1uF bypass in the signal path of the woofer cross-over.

Further, this woo, woo, woo, in fact contains MF/HF energy hardly noticeable on it's own, but actually contributing to GLARE (overly bright MF presenation)

This might be common knowledge, who knows - it was not to me and of course NEITHER to simulation programs such as SPICE.
Axel


 
 
08-11-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 55
Post ID: 11343
Reply to: 11190
The CNCing? Interesting…
fiogf49gjkf0d
I met today with guy who is local woodworker and who looks like a right person to render my Midbass horn. He proposed something that I did not consider. He felt that the horn like mine might to be sliced by 2 inches increment, cut on 3-dimensional CNC machine and the glued together.  I never considered this. The good part of it that he feels that a complexity of the curves, profiles and everything else that is hard to handle manually will not be a subject at all of I use this method. Can anybody to comment about it? I was under impression that CNC cutting is more applicable if I make 50 of those horns not a pair of them…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-11-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Axel
South Africa
Posts 80
Joined on 07-18-2009

Post #: 56
Post ID: 11345
Reply to: 11343
Layered construction horn
fiogf49gjkf0d

Romy,
there are box-speaker manufacturers that use exactly this approach, so nothing is so new about it. I think Karma and Evolution Acoustics speaker (also layered construction) come to mind, see below.




As to CNC routering, it needs a CNC cutting program written to produce the numerous layers. This would be a cost amortised over the number of cut. But today's CNC routers should make that a pretty quick task as all be different size circles, yes?
The ONLY thing I can see to be an issue, are the ever changing angles / degrees of each 'slice's' in- and outsides. I would imagine your man would still have to smooth them over on a wood-lathe after all is glued up --- it still would be a lot easier since he has the already existing edges to work from.

If you look at the speaker above you can see, there are no curves in the vertical but only in the horizontal, which is no problem for the CNC router. (Your horn when compared to the speaker in this picture would fire upward, if this makes sense)
Axel
08-11-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Saturntube
Posts 24
Joined on 07-08-2005

Post #: 57
Post ID: 11355
Reply to: 11345
CNC Snail Horn
fiogf49gjkf0d
This is a good example of a CNC horn.  This is the Carfrae I was talking about.  MDF Upperbass horns are made in sort of the same way, but you do have to cut the angles on the Lathe. (or leave the steps like a The thing is it is not really tridimensional,  in a horn like way,  or Like Axel says "the ever changing angles" of a horn.
Axel. "there is still PERCEIVABLE energy at ~ 3kHz" and this Glares the mid range.... If I understand correctly.
I tested my upperbass horns with no low pass and the freq. that went up to 3.5kHz also did mud up the midrange,  so I had to put add a low pass at 700hz.
But the 1st order Xover fixed things pretty well IME.  I expect the same would happen with the Midbass horns.
There are some similar Nagaoka BLH kits in Japan mainly  for Fostex speakers.


08-11-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 58
Post ID: 11357
Reply to: 11355
The construction techniques – that will be the last.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I see, thanks. Now I understand why the guy I spoke with was so "not afraid” the complexity of curved profiles. In fact he made a stand that it does not matter for him if it was rectangular or spherical parabolic profile. I kind of was taken back with that statement but now I see that he was right – the curved complexity with 3-D CNC cutter is not a subject anymore.
I think at this point I need to stop to think further about contraction methods and wait until I have a strategic design ready. I have people who will help me with conversion of strategic design into detail functional specifications and I have a person why can help be to convert data into a conventional design format. I think then I would need to approach a few woodshops to get from them proposals for implementation method, cost easements to access what I might end up with and to make my pick with the direction to go.
I think I get a basic grip for now what my options are. If I have the specifics of my new living rooms then I might be more definite about what and how I want to do in there…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-15-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
mjloudspeaker
Posts 40
Joined on 08-07-2009

Post #: 59
Post ID: 11414
Reply to: 11337
Time alignment how?
fiogf49gjkf0d

How could you figure this out? Even if vertical horn is saving space, the other channels would be so far back that space is a problem again?

No wonder I hate horns. Been avoiding them all my life, but now is the time in my life for Horns.

j.

08-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 60
Post ID: 11508
Reply to: 11190
The ceilings height
fiogf49gjkf0d
I was visiting recently a few properties with large living rooms:  900-1000sq feet and 30 feet ceilings. Hm… I do not feel comfortable with it. I would rather prefer to have 12-15 feet ceilings. Those high 30 feet ceilings – I kind of feel unfriendly with it….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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