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03-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jp
Posts 39
Joined on 02-25-2006

Post #: 321
Post ID: 10093
Reply to: 10092
APS Contact
fiogf49gjkf0d
Its much easier to get them on the phone.  Apparently, they are working on my issue, which is similar to yours.
03-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 322
Post ID: 10097
Reply to: 10093
The Purepower’s things
fiogf49gjkf0d

Well, dealing with Purepower I think it worth to understand the APS specific. They did not impress me as an engendering shop but rather they are the long-ceremony type of operation. It is not that you comment on some kind of problem on the field and then you have a guy with skills and tools on the APS side confirm the problem and provide a solution. OI did not see it in APS. From what I saw they are slow to recognize the problems and incredibly slow to react to problems. I did not see in them that “grab money and run” attitude at all.  It is understandable as they looks like do not have engendering recourses or manufacturing facilities on site and as I feel the plant the makes the Purepower generators in China does not feel that APS is the most valuable client of them. Most likely it is a very large electronic producing company in China with a lot of manufacturing inertia and APS production is just a little pimple among their production.

So, the APS interprets complains how they can, and soon or later they schedules to implement the solutions in the production runs that might e coming… next year or so. Yes, it is not very transparent operation. Add to it a relatively superficial QA from APS and you get the picture.

However, it shall not be noted that the ASP-type regenerators has some added support complexity. It is not PS Audio PowerPlant that is less sensitive to load and not Avicenna that is absolutely insensitive to load. The class D regenerator is all about the load and the reaction of the regenerator to the load. So, the APS people have much more variables to deal with in support then one might imagine.

Interesting to note that I know a few installations that use the last revision of PPP2000. Some people do report that they experience one of another type of problem. I personally have zero problems and none of the effects that Adrian, JP and other report. We do have the same vintage of regenerators, so there are possibilities:

1)      My and your PP200 are in fact NOT the same

2)      There is something in my and you systems that make PP2000 to operate differently in my and your case.

I do not know the answers and frankly since I have none of the problems I do not particularly care to learn how to get one. If you do have problems then I would suggest taking a bit more proactive position then just a send then a few emails. You need to call them, call them again and to demand a satisfaction. Since you do not ask for anything else then a proper operation of your units then I do not call it harassment but rather your desire to get what you shell be given. I did not detect that APS people were overly frustrated with my complains or concerns as they were always back up with facts and they always engaged in the conversation about the problems. The result is different thing – you might wait but at least you have a record that you did complained during your warranty and you have a promises that it will be addressed in a week, month or year – the due date will be blown but they will sloooooowlwy look into the problems. Do call them again and remind that the problems are still not resolved, after all you need to address the problem more then they need to do it.

What I think APS need at this point is some kind of official public position regarding to what they do and a public knowledge based facility what user would self-debug own problems. I think they need to put a collaborative site out with support forum and KB. It would address all concerns and would prevent people runs across the various sites and to pick rumors. I have no idea why APS did not take yet as official stand regarding the stability of own products.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 323
Post ID: 10099
Reply to: 10097
What? They're Not Assembeld at MIT by Post-Docs?!?
fiogf49gjkf0d

Yes, of course.  And since we are supposed to be educated and sophistocated people here, you might thnk we'd have recognized and prepared for all this ourselves, before forking over $3k for "results".

But the Fact is that many of us are so sick of the Bad Electricity Problem that we have gone soft on the idea of an easy fix, despite strong evidence to the contrary.  Furthermore, APS knows it, and they work the angle, just like all the other sheisters.

Although I have [barely] managed to restrain myself from sending them money so far, I have done some reconnoissance.  Just from talking to them and from the steady negative feedback, I know that APS are far more concerned with marketing, selling, producing and shipping units than they are with anything as abstract as actually solving the BEP on any tangible level, as far as any given end user might be concerned.  Ironically, you might have a better chance getting hum fixed than you would getting the thing to correct BEP, if that turns out to be a problem at any point.

As to how long it might take them to make good on problems in "the field", I am guessing they will start getting around to that if they think it's hurting (or threatening) the bottom line, IF they still have the capital reserves at that time to launch a rescue mission.  Again: this is where the Mk II, SE usually comes in...

Best case in terms of "intentions", the concern is always that they will "intend" to address problems for a while, then just give up when it finally becomes ovrwhelming.

And there is really no sense in citing "customer satisfaction" as proof of QC (QA, these days, I suppose), since the broad swath of their market will always be Morons, anyway.  They either have it in them to do it right, or they are incompetent fuck-ups; or they are pirates.

Paul S

03-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 324
Post ID: 10146
Reply to: 10099
PP2000 update
fiogf49gjkf0d
After many unanswered e-mails, I got word from APS today, who said they have had a few customers with similar issues and that it seems to be system dependent. However, they also said that they were working on a way to fix this that they might have in as soon as a few weeks and that they will not charge anything to any customers to make the necessary corrections. Well, okay, we will see.

Adrian
03-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 325
Post ID: 10148
Reply to: 10146
The fuzzy system-dependent explanation - I do not like it.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 drdna wrote:
After many unanswered e-mails, I got word from APS today, who said they have had a few customers with similar issues and that it seems to be system dependent. However, they also said that they were working on a way to fix this that they might have in as soon as a few weeks and that they will not charge anything to any customers to make the necessary corrections. Well, okay, we will see.
Actually I do not find it as satisfying answer and I am surprised you do not ask them more. The system-dependent explanation is NOT an explanation at all. If the regenerator does not run DC and has virtually null between ground and neutral then the regenerator is fine. The system-dependent explanation explains nothing unless very precise specifics of you system that was allegedly responsible for the problem was identified and named. If they say something like this for example: “the noise of 60Hz was is due to your system have an impulse power supply in one of your load” then the system-dependence makes sense. However, if they use the system-dependent justification but without naming the dependence from something very specific then this explanation is absolutely bogus. This explanation is as absurd as us the word “synergy” for components matching - it gives an illusion and justifies the problem but serves no useful idea for system building. Anyhow, I hope APS or you will name what specific attribute of your particular playback was responsible for the noise. I have no noise of any kind now but does it mean that if I add one more component with not favorable PS then my system-dependency will turn to negative? I need to know what the problem is and if the people who do not have the problem NOW need to pay attention and to implement the fix that might prevent the future prospective noises.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-05-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 326
Post ID: 10168
Reply to: 10148
With All the Wonderful Success Lately
fiogf49gjkf0d

Do we finally understand what part of the Bad Electricity problems is [broadband] noise and what part is related to "waveform" issues, such as phase?  And do we understand how attempts to deal with either one of these issues might affect the other?

I ask because I have never seen a single corrective device that offers balanced, quiet, phase-perfect power.  By "balanced" in this case, I mean that the nueutral/ground is isolated and re-referenced at -60V, while the hot leg is set at at +60V, in  the case of 120V AC.

Neither have I seen a full-on "regenerator" that does not employ a digitally-synthesized reference for the reconstruction/propagation of its "perfect" sine waves.  Sorry, but I just don't get how this could stay clear of its own noise.

I would not be bringing this up again if it looked like the PP2000 neutral/ground was actually isolated.  Obviously, if you unplug the thing, then its ground just "floats".  But even in this case, cross-contamination from the loads appears to be possible; likely, even.

Paul S

04-05-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 327
Post ID: 10169
Reply to: 10168
The saga about the tennis playing Jew
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
I ask because I have never seen a single corrective device that offers balanced, quiet, phase-perfect power.  By "balanced" in this case, I mean that the nueutral/ground is isolated and re-referenced at -60V, while the hot leg is set at at +60V, in  the case of 120V AC.

Neither have I seen a full-on "regenerator" that does not employ a digitally-synthesized reference for the reconstruction/propagation of its "perfect" sine waves.  Sorry, but I just don't get how this could stay clear of its own noise.

Yes, you have seen it. The PS Audio PowerPlant does exactly what you describe: fully regenerating, quiet,\ balanced, etc.  I do not know what would be “phase-perfect power” but it is OK.

 Paul S wrote:
I would not be bringing this up again if it looked like the PP2000 neutral/ground was actually isolated.  Obviously, if you unplug the thing, then its ground just "floats".  But even in this case, cross-contamination from the loads appears to be possible; likely, even.

I have no idea what those 3 sentences mean. PP2000 neutral is neutral, the ground is ground, the input ground shall not be lifted. Anyhow, Paul I think you need to make a mental decisions how much you are willing to talk about PP2000 without actually trying it. Sure, you might talk about whatever you wish but how practical is it? Anyhow, just a thought. That reminds me an old joke what two Jews meet and one ask “Can you play tennis?” Another reply: “Perhaps, I do not know - I never tried.”
 
The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-06-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RonyWeissman
Lyon, France
Posts 138
Joined on 05-29-2004

Post #: 328
Post ID: 10170
Reply to: 10169
Hahahahaha!!
fiogf49gjkf0d
thanks romy, that's just what i needed on a monday morning.  
R weissman ( a tennis playing jew)
04-28-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Beav
Posts 5
Joined on 04-28-2009

Post #: 329
Post ID: 10372
Reply to: 2931
Humming
fiogf49gjkf0d

What I have is a subwoofer made by ACI; no information on the amplifier used other than it uses a two prong power cord, no ground.   When I hooked it up to the APS 2000 I got a very loud pitched hum.  Taking if off the 2000 and plugging it into a wall outlet on a different circuit, I still got the hum, but not so loud or high pitched.  Any ideas as to what is causing this both directly hooked up to the 2000 and then only hooked up by way of a subwoofer pre-amp output from the Pioneer Elite Receiver.   The sub is used for HT, which in most cases would drown out the hum.   However with the new sound formats being used by blu-ray you can get sound quality for music that rivals CDs.   If this hum comes through on a quiet passage in a BD concert...well, I'm afraid the unit will receive a "not ready for prime time rating" for me.   I am in process of doing a review on the 2000, and so far the only feedback I'm getting is; from ACI why mess with something that works fine without a power reconditioner.   From our friends at APS take the PC equipment offline from your audio equipment.   This had no effect on the hum.   So, my next option would be as the manual states, use the adjustible circuit that removes hum in torroidal transformers of certain designs.   I did a review on the 1050 which received high praise from me as it solved a tube amplifier problem that could have cost me thousands in burnt tubes and who knows what damage to the mono amps.   I now use a Pioneer Elite Receiver; whigh is the only difference between then and now; that and the location of the house; the ACI subwoofer was in my system at the time of the 1050 review.  So why this change? 

04-28-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 330
Post ID: 10374
Reply to: 10372
I think you are play wrong game….
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Beav wrote:

What I have is a subwoofer made by ACI; no information on the amplifier used other than it uses a two prong power cord, no ground.   When I hooked it up to the APS 2000 I got a very loud pitched hum.  Taking if off the 2000 and plugging it into a wall outlet on a different circuit, I still got the hum, but not so loud or high pitched.  Any ideas as to what is causing this both directly hooked up to the 2000 and then only hooked up by way of a subwoofer pre-amp output from the Pioneer Elite Receiver.   The sub is used for HT, which in most cases would drown out the hum.   However with the new sound formats being used by blu-ray you can get sound quality for music that rivals CDs.   If this hum comes through on a quiet passage in a BD concert...well, I'm afraid the unit will receive a "not ready for prime time rating" for me.   I am in process of doing a review on the 2000, and so far the only feedback I'm getting is; from ACI why mess with something that works fine without a power reconditioner.   From our friends at APS take the PC equipment offline from your audio equipment.   This had no effect on the hum.   So, my next option would be as the manual states, use the adjustible circuit that removes hum in torroidal transformers of certain designs.   I did a review on the 1050 which received high praise from me as it solved a tube amplifier problem that could have cost me thousands in burnt tubes and who knows what damage to the mono amps.   I now use a Pioneer Elite Receiver; whigh is the only difference between then and now; that and the location of the house; the ACI subwoofer was in my system at the time of the 1050 review.  So why this change? 


Beav,

 The “hum” might be from various reasons. If you imply the 60Hz and 120Hz then it most likely some odd ground loops that in case of PP2000 are more complicated. It need to be know if the hum you described is not mechanical nature, what kind it is, how it relates to volume…. the regular things. What surprised me that if people have ground loops with records cartridges then they fight the loops but what they have the same proboems with AC lines then they feel that it is much different…

Actually, Beav, there is something different in your case. I think what you do it wrong. If you are a reviewer and you are in possess of writing a review about the PP2000 then I would advise you do not search online what others say but subject of your review but you your own mind. If you have any technical or exploiting difficulties then take it to the PurePower people as the observation of their compliance to your problems shall be a part of your review as well. I know that many of the audio “reviewers” write their semi-idiotic observation by browsing web and snatching the phrases and opinions from here and there.  I do not think that you would do a good service to your or other is you practice it.

So, if you are in possesses of writing a review then you shell not read this thread and shell not ask questions. Your job is to provide answers or to sharpening the questions…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-28-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Beav
Posts 5
Joined on 04-28-2009

Post #: 331
Post ID: 10376
Reply to: 10374
Response to Romy
fiogf49gjkf0d

Actually, Beav, there is something different in your case. I think what you do it wrong. If you are a reviewer and you are in possess of writing a review about the PP2000 then I would advise you do not search online what others say but subject of your review but you your own mind. If you have any technical or exploiting difficulties then take it to the PurePower people as the observation of their compliance to your problems shall be a part of your review as well. I know that many of the audio “reviewers” write their semi-idiotic observation by browsing web and snatching the phrases and opinions from here and there.  I do not think that you would do a good service to your or other is you practice it.



Romy,

The magazine I work for is Enthusiast based.  How each Enthusiast chooses to go about problem solving is up to them.   I am in discussions with both ACI and PurePower in regards to this issue.   The reason I also use audiophile forums is the knowledge base there can be of benefit to my own "thinking".  I am not looking of guesses, I am looking for engineering facts; it is an area I am not highly skilled in and so I use what resources I can find to help me solve a mystery.   That is my job, how I go about doing my job is my style of writing and "thinking".   You may agree or disagree; you are neither right nor wrong.   You have an opinion, as do I.   I respect yours, and will consider your advice.  In the end, I expect I will use every resource I can find to solve my mystery.  Hopefully we will all benefit from the effort. 
05-25-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anafield
Posts 5
Joined on 02-18-2009

Post #: 332
Post ID: 10582
Reply to: 10376
PurePower 1050 EU Version big bang and dead
fiogf49gjkf0d
Today I was listening music and after about one hour there was a big bang and my hole system was dead.My unit worked well for about 6 months now without any problems, out of the sky it blow up!
The home main fuse of 16 Amps was blown-out but the 10 Amp Fuse on the back of the APH 1050 is still intact.After the shock what happened I hooked up my system with a normal power juicebar and all worked as it shut be.
After listening for about one hour I noticed that my set was sounding much better and smoother.Especially in the upper frequencies there was a more relaxed and open sound, the bass was also more powerful.
For me the APH experiment is over and I will keep the system running without any Power-regenerator.
PS: I looked inside the APH to find out what happened, a couple of 10 Amp soldered Fuses are dead, also the output stage was blown away.At the middle of the power stage there is a small ceramic cap mounted that is bean used in a Sobel-Network on the output of the Digital Amp.This capacitor as I measured it was shorted, my guess is that this sucker caused the problem.

Herman
05-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
PurePower
Ayr, ON
Posts 44
Joined on 05-26-2009

Post #: 333
Post ID: 10598
Reply to: 10582
Herman's unfortunate experience
fiogf49gjkf0d
The failure Herman had was probably on the input side - not the output.

You will notice 2 things.
1. The system operated normally for 6 months, so it is unlikely an overload issue.
2. The PurePower did its job of protecting the audio equipment (self sacrifice is the first rule of power protection).

The failure was most likely the result of a high voltage transient causing a short circuit of a PurePower input power supply high power mosfet chip. 
The description is consistent with a mosfet short. They can fail with a bang. This results when the mosfet is subjected to an input voltage over 450V.

We have documented that utility power frequently contains transient voltages of up to 700 volts that are very short duration - typically less than a
millisecond. They are caused when the utility switches in or out large capacitor banks they routinely use for power factor correction - a necesary
function of power distribution especially in industrial areas. On site testing for power quality at a Purepower customer site in Connecticut by an
independent power quality engineering firm captured a number of these "transient events" over a 3 week period. (We are working of providing this
report in a white paper.)

Normally these high voltage short duration events are too fast to even cause a light to flicker - and certainly are way too fast to trip a fuse, but our
mosfets in the 1050 were super sensitive to sudden overvoltage - and thus were susceptible. Most consumers don't run into this problem or the transients in their neighborhoods are lower voltage - but it only takes one transient and a fraction of a millisecond.

We addressed this problem in late 2008 - and made changes to our 1050 motherboard. Now all 1050 2009 production is as immune to transients as our 
model 700 and 2000 always have been.

Not only that - the transients cannot pass through the PurePower double conversion - unlike other types of power conditioners which allow transients to reach
sensitive audio equipment after passing right through. We have no doubt that some audio component power supplies can be harmed
in the same way our PurePower input power supply was.

As to Herman's preference for utility power sound after his unnerving experience, I can understand. We sincerely apologize for giving him such a fright.
But I bet in a blind test he will prefer to go back to listening with PurePower.

Richard at PurePower


05-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 334
Post ID: 10602
Reply to: 10598
Very Well, But Whaddabout...?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Richard, I accept your explanation in this particular case, but where have you been up to now?

The impression here remains that APS responds only to harvest praise or if it affords an opportunity - such as the previous post - to look good.

How are things going with respect to trouble-shooting and implementing timely solutions to real design and/or production problems APS have not heretofore addressed?

Best regards,
Paul S

05-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 335
Post ID: 10604
Reply to: 10598
Humming along
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have to echo Paul's sentiments.
All I have heard about the hum issue in my PurePower unit is that "we are working on that" but nothing concrete or any explanations given...It would be great to hear something about it.
Adrian
05-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Beav
Posts 5
Joined on 04-28-2009

Post #: 336
Post ID: 10609
Reply to: 10604
Hum issues
fiogf49gjkf0d
drdha,

Is your hum comming directly from the purepower unit itself?

I've been doing some research on hum issues in general; a goood site for information is linked here http://www.epanorama.net/documents/groundloop/home_solving.html

Previously I reported that when I hooked up my powered subwoofer to the purepower 2000 my sub let out an awful hum.   I finallly solved the problem by using a different method of hookup between the sub and the Receiver.  It's as quiet as mouse now.  In reading up on hum issues (ground loops) I've found that even the experts are sometimes stymied by the cause.   It can be with a component or how components are hooked up to the system you have.  The best solution I've found is to experiment.   Luckily for me I had options with my sub for hookup, had I not the answer would be that particular component is incompatible with a power regenerator, or at least the one I used.   If it's a component issue and the rest of the system is benefriting then I would change out the component.   If it's a system wide issue I would change out the power regenerator.   BAd power is bad power, if you got it, you have to look for ways to treat it.  So far I've been quite pleased with purepower in two different systems, in two different locations with both the 1050 and now the 2000.   Customer service issues are another story; and only the company itself can address that.  Since I solved my own problem by combination of research on the internet and experimentation I in the end did not need to use Purepowers new hum adjustment tool built into the unit.  What I like about Purepower is they are always coming up with new ideas to solve age old problems in the power arena.  I do believe timely responses to a customer's problem are as essential to a good product as the product itself.  Even if the company is having difficulty resolving the problem, giving a status report to the customer is also the professional way to do things.  In my real world job I work in the Project Management field, and if I were to fail to give a "stakeholder" in the project a progress report I would not have my job for long.   I have found that in general most A/V companies do a good job of communication; those that don't rarely receive my business again.   I hope that Purepower will help resolve your problem, keep us informed. 
05-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anafield
Posts 5
Joined on 02-18-2009

Post #: 337
Post ID: 10617
Reply to: 10598
Replay to Richard
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hello Richard,
Ok good explanation al-do especially these kinds of shut not get damaged by powerspikes, this is clearly an fault in the design.I live in Switzerland where I also bought the unit. At the moment it is at the shop that sold the unit to me.I do not believe that anyone here in Switzerland is able to repair the unit, also because it is a late 2008 model and not the 2009 version.
A great service wood be if you could sent me a new 2009 EU Version unit directly to Switzerland.
Regards,Herman

05-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
PurePower
Ayr, ON
Posts 44
Joined on 05-26-2009

Post #: 338
Post ID: 10618
Reply to: 10617
Repair capacity in Europe
fiogf49gjkf0d

The Swiss dealer is capable of replacing your failed MB with a new non suceptible board - just email me richard@purepoweraps.com and I'll arrange parts supply. We also have a Europe service facility in Germany.

05-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anafield
Posts 5
Joined on 02-18-2009

Post #: 339
Post ID: 10619
Reply to: 10618
Repair capacity in Europe
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Richard,
Great, thanks.I will post an review and update after I have my unit back here at this location.
Again thanks,Herman
05-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
PurePower
Ayr, ON
Posts 44
Joined on 05-26-2009

Post #: 340
Post ID: 10620
Reply to: 10604
Hum
fiogf49gjkf0d

Hum is a multi faceted problem. We have identified 4 completely different causes of hum in amplifier power supply transformers exacerabted by AC power problems - and that kind of hum is not even the most common hum audiophiles have to deal with. The no 1 cause is ground loops in interconnects - which is outside our purvue. PurePower can effectively eliminate amplifier transformer hum from AC power supply causes - including DC offset, asymetrical voltage waveform (sometimes called virtual offset), common mode noise from faulty grounds and current waveform anomalies caused by asymetric current draw by amplifier power supplies.
All of these hums are distinct from hums entering the signal path and emanating in the speakers - this is mostly unrelated to AC power issues and again outside PurePower's purvue.

If anyone is waiting for a PurePower technical solution to amplifier transformer hum then please email me with details. We can help with these. richard@purepoweraps.com

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