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08-31-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015
Post #: 1641
Post ID: 25073
Reply to: 25072
Noise is present
It is the second Romy, the noise is always present. There was always a little noise but when I had a soundsmith strain gauge system arrive, I was expecting not to have any noise. It is a hum free device. When I installed it thought, there was a buzz. I tried changing its adapters, but it was still there. After trying everything I dcided to take the pp out for the first time since I got it. The noise was gone. I started wondering if the hum from my old pre was related. I installed it back and that was very silent too. Then I noticed the faint grunge I hear from the upper mid and treble is also completely gone. It is an audible noise, it kind of buzzes, it made the phono pre hum more too. It does not matter if music is playing or not and the faint buzz does not change with the volume. The mc phono pre hum does change with volume though. Still, the same mc phono pre does not have any audible hum at the same level without pp.
08-31-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 1642
Post ID: 25074
Reply to: 25073
Noise and disconnected DC battery supply
 kodomo wrote:
the faint grunge I hear from the upper mid and treble ... It is an audible noise, it kind of buzzes...

Yes, that describes it. This is THE characteristic noise when there is a defect in the Pure Power unit. As far as I know, nobody knows exactly what electromechanical manufacturing flaw causes this. As you remember, i also had this issue. Then, my Pure Power failed completely. Then after a lot of effort and time, I got my replacement, which has been completely silent. It's a bit of a roll of the dice until Damien and Richard figure out what is causing this.
 Romy The Cat wrote:
If you are wiling to invest more space and money into more batteries then get rig AC part from your amplification and go fully disconnected DC power.

This would be fun. I often have fantasized about this, but it would be a lot of work modifying all the circuits around the rectifiers, etc. After all that, it will certainly affect the sound, but will it be a positive or negative change?
08-31-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1643
Post ID: 25075
Reply to: 25073
OK different issue than a failure to entirely isolate
I experience as do some others a variation in the effectiveness of the PP at certain times of the day/night cycle. Since it seems correlated at least partially to probable power co usage it seems reasonable to ascribe the variation to an isolation failure somewhere in the system. You are describing a defective PP unit. I regret to say you are in trouble because PP repair is almost oxymoronic.  As drdna found it took years before getting another unit. You might try taking it to a local audio repair shop if you have a good one nearby to see if they can figure it out. Otherwise you have years of correspondence ahead of you in all likelihood.
08-31-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1644
Post ID: 25076
Reply to: 25073
Some debugging tips with PP noise
 kodomo wrote:
It is the second Romy, the noise is always present. There was always a little noise but when I had a soundsmith strain gauge system arrive, I was expecting not to have any noise. It is a hum free device. When I installed it thought, there was a buzz. I tried changing its adapters, but it was still there. After trying everything I dcided to take the pp out for the first time since I got it. The noise was gone. I started wondering if the hum from my old pre was related. I installed it back and that was very silent too. Then I noticed the faint grunge I hear from the upper mid and treble is also completely gone. It is an audible noise, it kind of buzzes, it made the phono pre hum more too. It does not matter if music is playing or not and the faint buzz does not change with the volume. The mc phono pre hum does change with volume though. Still, the same mc phono pre does not have any audible hum at the same level without pp.
Kodomo, well. I can testify that I do not have any of it. I do not think that I am deaf or that my playback is not efficient. If I had it then then I would never stop to harass Damien and Richard, presuming that PP is not operational yet or I would never use the PP. The fact that a unit in my playback introduces a known to me major auditable problem would bother me tremendously. 
 
Let clear the first perspective on the problem: it is possible that some kind unknown ether to us or to the PP manufactures problem exist in PP implementation that cause the problem. I do not mean the principle design of the unit as I do not have the problem but rather some kind of small deviation of assembly of the units that might cause the problem. This can be resolved only by PP as they need to analyses the assembling differences between my unit and the group of people who do not have the problem (I have witnessed in other people’s systems with PP a complete silence) vs the group that do have the problem. No one will be able to answer it but the PP as no one know what is the minute differences between the units. If it exists it literally might have to do with the name of the PP employee who build the unit or production run of some components of the boards.
The first perspective is most likely: I think you guys describing a normal ground loop. The ground loop is not only 60 or 120Hz even it very much might be at upper frequency and I have seen a lot of it. The good part is that it very much might be tested. I do not know the composition of you playback in elements and hos it is connected, so I will be talking about generics. 
 
Unplug every power of your playback and assemble the following: 
 
Main ->PP-> Digital Source-> Power Amplifier->Speaker 
 
In case you multi-amp use juts one upper mid channel. Place PP no closer than 6-10 feet from the playback 
 
Everything else MUST go and should not be connected nether over the power cords or over RCAs of the chain above. 
 
The PP must go to the main with ground but each single power unit you plug into PP MUST have a ground lifting cheater plug. 
 
Observe the noise you report. If it is there than unplug the Digital Source and see if the noise still there. If it is then short the power amp input RCA. If you use balance connectors then short the inputs accordingly. If you still have noise then touch your amplifier ground with you home external ground. Your amp’s ground is floating now and you might have as much as 120V between amp’s ground and earth but it should not be current in there, so it should be save to short it. Still, use a common sense and the best if you do not know what you do to short the amp’s ground and earth for the first time with a non-LED lighting bulb: if the bulb goes off then you have current. 
 
Switch the PP in buttery mode and unplug the mains. Observe what happens with the noise. 
 
Please provide a feedback of the noise is gone.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015
Post #: 1645
Post ID: 25080
Reply to: 25076
I think I already did that
Thank you for your support on debugging Romy. When I had the soundsmith and encountered the problem, Mr. Lederman tried to help me and we did something along your lines. Rather than digital, we did it with his sg200. 

mains-->PP-->sg200 (input shorted)-->power amp-->speaker (The faint noise was there. When the input was not shorted for the sg200, there was more noise)

The noise is only absent when the unit is on battery mode and the pp is unplugged

I did not try lifting the ground of the amp when connecting to pp. So I will do that as well.
08-31-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1646
Post ID: 25081
Reply to: 25080
Never use the mains (or PP) ground, ever!
 kodomo wrote:
I did not try lifting the ground of the amp when connecting to pp. So I will do that as well.

 
Well, what we ere are talking about then? If you are not lifting the ground on each component that connected to PP then you open yourself to huge ground look problem. I have learned it back in 90s with my very first PP, do not forget that you connect the component over RCA grounds and the second ground over power line is fundamentally bad idea. I for over 20 years have been running none of my components use main’s grounds of PP ground for this matter. In the today world the main ground that you do not control is not only bad for sound but electrically disagrees.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-01-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 361
Joined on 02-11-2009
Post #: 1647
Post ID: 25082
Reply to: 25081
Just unplug
The noise problem in pp is not related to audio system ground and lifting ground will not make it silent.The only way you could get silent pp is to unplug it from the wall.I have heard (in this topic before page 44) the battery charger in pp is cause of noise.

www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
09-02-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,672
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 1648
Post ID: 25083
Reply to: 25080
Hummm Dinger
It's hard to give prescriptions for ground problems, since they may be both myriad and complex.  I can offer that my own current system performs best with all 3rd wire grounds disconnected from the wall socket at the component.  For all I know, this may also apply to the PP unit.  In my present case I also need a dedicated ground rod and line for my phono, and to this I connect ground "bleeder" wires from my cartridge, tone arm, phono IC shields, SUT, TT, and phono stage.  In the case of the PP, it must surely load the house ground with noise, and I suppose it also broadcasts noise to any "antenna" that is near enough, as well.  The low level gain on a phono stage is certainly apt to pick up and amplify any signal on its its gain path, no matter how it gets there.

By now, every GSC member who buys a PP must know that their QC is a crap shoot, also their satisfactory implementation may require some work, even when they are in prefect working order.  And close GSC readers know that "expensive" phono cartridges are also prone to QC and general integration problems, so that can't be ruled out until it's ruled out, either.

Good luck!


Best regards,
Paul S
09-02-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004
Post #: 1649
Post ID: 25084
Reply to: 25083
Plug Polarity
This trick of disconnecting all the grounds works, depending. . . I am not a happy or unhappy, as the case may be, PP owner, but I know this to be the case anyway.

Now, is everyone aware that which way the plug is mounted in the socket make a difference as well? (I could supply references on this for the uninitiated.) The deal is, each unit in the system must be tested to determine which way is correct for the overall configuration. If ground loops and such seem to affect performance of the PP, then perhaps this effect should be taken into consideration as well.

The test is simple, a DVM will swing it.
09-02-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 1650
Post ID: 25085
Reply to: 25084
The Wood Effect
It's always good to hear from Clark. 
Here is the reference to his article:
https://positive-feedback.com/Issue1/cjwoodeffect.htm
09-02-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004
Post #: 1651
Post ID: 25086
Reply to: 25085
Not the Wood Effect
But thanks for the accolade.

The AC plug polarity situation differs from sonic acoustic polarity, although it *is* treated in my book entitled The Wood Effect.
09-03-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
AOK_Farmer


Marlboro NY USA
Posts 64
Joined on 07-08-2004
Post #: 1652
Post ID: 25087
Reply to: 25086
It is great to hear from Clark
and tracing the polarity back to your electrical service can prove useful, even more so  if you have 3 phase power. I’m sure this has been covered but I’ve been away a while.
11-24-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 361
Joined on 02-11-2009
Post #: 1653
Post ID: 25163
Reply to: 25087
Please share Harmonic Spectrum of your AC 50hz
I use my Apogee Duet usb audio interface as cheap oscilloscope. trueRTA software has both spectrum analyser and oscilloscope mode.  The accuracy of spectrum analyser is good for looking at 50hz sine wave. the maximum input sampling frequency is 96khz/24bit (1/24 octave)
this the perfect 50hz sine wave generated by truerta :

I have read all 83 pages of this topic and i did not find any spectrum of main AC voltage.  (I have saved a summary of 83 pages in pdf and if it will be allowed then i will share it here)
for some reason i would like to look at spectrum of different members. if you have any AC regenerator or any isolation transformer or any AC filter please share your 50hz spectrum with/without them.

I live in complex and the Elecrtricity quality is not good. This is my wall 230Volt AC spectrum 24bit/48khz (1/12 octave).

When i use high wattage ohm loads i have no changes in spectrum but when i use switching psu i see 5-10db higher noise over 2khz. higher noise of switching psu (over 2khz) will affect on both audio and video quality but higher resistant load will not alter the sound quality.
please share your 50hz spectrum.

www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
11-24-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 1654
Post ID: 25164
Reply to: 25163
So what?
What connection do we have considering the spectra of signals on the mains and sound quality? What data do we have on what part of "mains contamination" affects sound quality? What data do we have on how power supplies should be built for the 21st century? What data do we have that shows us what RoHs compliance has on our sound?
Amir, you seem to like subjects like this but where is the discriminate thinking? I mean, we can talk about people starving in Africa too, but the discussion is significant when it leads to action - not just Facebook type memes.
How much of the garbage in your mains gets through your power supply? How does it change the sound quality. I would assume that proper quality CLC/CRC filtering would make the mains issues at least predictable. If the SQ changes due to the mains quality, we have to find out what the power supplies are NOT doing...

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
11-24-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 361
Joined on 02-11-2009
Post #: 1655
Post ID: 25166
Reply to: 25164
Maybe Checking some HF noise on midrange Texture
 rowuk wrote:
What connection do we have considering the spectra of signals on the mains and sound quality? What data do we have on what part of "mains contamination" affects sound quality?.

No body knows answer of This question and you can ask it about all other components like measurements of loudspeaker , amplifier , dac and ...All We know about this question is very very limited but i am just curious to compare other spectrals.
I am waiting to look at the spectral in good electricity days. It may be useless but i would like to do that.

Another thing i would like to consider is harmonic spectral of purepower 3000+ as i heard very minor minor effect of high frequency on midrange texture.
I think if any body use ferrits to control pp3000 high frequency then i would like to see it’s spectral before/after using ferrits with purepower.I think we may find useful information maybe not.

www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
11-24-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 1656
Post ID: 25167
Reply to: 25166
Worthwhile?
Maybe you should get spectral data what your power supply secondaries look like in an case, my suspicion is that we have the exact same issues as with high order crossover networks when our power supplies have "high order" filtration. Maybe we need some first order filters or second order Bessel filtration instead of LCLCLC/RCRCRC...
 Amir wrote:
 rowuk wrote:
What connection do we have considering the spectra of signals on the mains and sound quality? What data do we have on what part of "mains contamination" affects sound quality?.

No body knows answer of This question and you can ask it about all other components like measurements of loudspeaker , amplifier , dac and ...All We know about this question is very very limited but i am just curious to compare other spectrals.
I am waiting to look at the spectral in good electricity days. It may be useless but i would like to do that.

Another thing i would like to consider is harmonic spectral of purepower 3000+ as i heard very minor minor effect of high frequency on midrange texture.
I think if any body use ferrits to control pp3000 high frequency then i would like to see it’s spectral before/after using ferrits with purepower.I think we may find useful information maybe not.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
11-25-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 361
Joined on 02-11-2009
Post #: 1657
Post ID: 25168
Reply to: 25167
I have no idea
Looking at psu LCLC filters is another subject , i have no idea about that but i have heard good PSU has more simple filtering with lower capacitance bank. Generally speaking Simple circuits have advantages over complex circuits most of the time but it is not absolute rule. All i know is different filtering or different psu react different to pure power . Pure power is not perfect but is very strong tools to get good sound.
I am going to test one of my ideas about ac power , i will report it if the result be positive. 


www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
11-25-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,672
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 1658
Post ID: 25169
Reply to: 25168
+/-, Either Way
Amir, please report methodology and results, whether positive or negative.

Again, oscilloscope traces of PP output have been posted in this long thread showing conclusively that PP output is NOT a "perfect sine wave"; rather, they output pulsed square waves, and we know they foul the air and all conductors around themselves.  But -- apparently --  they foster musical umami that many like when their output is fed to hi-fi equipment power supplies.



Best regards,
Paul S
11-26-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 361
Joined on 02-11-2009
Post #: 1659
Post ID: 25170
Reply to: 25169
OK I Will
 Paul S wrote:
Amir, please report methodology and results, whether positive or negative.
OK I Will


 Paul S wrote:

Again, oscilloscope traces of PP output have been posted in this long thread showing conclusively that PP output is NOT a "perfect sine wave"; rather, they output pulsed square waves, and we know they foul the air and all conductors around themselves.  But -- apparently --  they foster musical umami that many like when their output is fed to hi-fi equipment power supplies.

Best regards,
Paul S

I have seen all of oscilloscope traces but i have not seen spectral analyses of different models of pure power before/after Ferrite beads.

www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
05-31-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008
Post #: 1660
Post ID: 25445
Reply to: 25170
Integrated PP
I suppose it was only a matter of time...
http://www.audio-gd.com/HE/V1HE/V1HEEN.htm
Page 83 of 96 (1,917 items) Select Pages:  « First ... « 81 82 83 84 85 » ... Last »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  What lives in Symmetric Sound?..  The beginning of our journey is ALWAYS symmetrical...  Audio Discussions  Forum     19  176444  05-28-2004
  »  New  Always check power-line polarity...  The Cost of Knowing...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     11  113290  07-10-2005
  »  New  RAAL “Water Drop” tweeter for Macondo...  Your comment takes me by surprise...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     77  929432  02-16-2007
  »  New  My feelings about new exciting audio products..  Vacuumstate...  Audio Discussions  Forum     25  266129  04-30-2007
  »  New  Musique Concrete horns..  These are now sold as Kornhent products...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     6  108849  06-12-2007
  »  New  Compression drivers and the “clean signal”...  The NEW “Compression drivers and the clean signal”....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  164605  07-12-2007
  »  New  Digi Redux; Drive 1 transport and iDAT-44+ DAC..  Moray James SPDIF!...  Didital Things  Forum     27  232569  09-28-2007
  »  New  Metal domes..  Try the one Lansche is using...  Audio Discussions  Forum     6  79423  11-08-2007
  »  New  The power AC Outlets?..  Where to Pick Up the Gong?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     2  43407  10-31-2008
  »  New  The Avicenna's failure is the great Avicenna success!..  New life for Avicenna...  Audio Discussions  Forum     8  84484  02-03-2009
  »  New  Internet and electricity..  Suboptimal. . ....  Didital Things  Forum     1  29530  01-07-2010
  »  New  Electricity... power strips and ac improvements..  Electricity... power strips and ac improvements...  Audio Discussions  Forum     0  16769  03-30-2010
  »  New  Another example of energy..  Tehran 230v...  Audio Discussions  Forum     1916  10027619  01-29-2011
  »  New  I good spot-light for a turntable?..  Reply...  Analog Playback Forum     15  155603  10-24-2010
  »  New  Sound Quality and “Electricity”..  The Effects of the "Atmosphere"...  Playback Listening  Forum     1  356  12-06-2024
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