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08-09-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
be
Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts 86
Joined on 02-12-2007

Post #: 41
Post ID: 4981
Reply to: 4980
Tractix and so on.
I know they knew a lot in those days and could have dealt with the nonlinearity of air if they wished to or if there attention was drawn to it.

Actually air is nonlinear with a uneven order nonlinear connection between pressure and volumen by audio frequencies at least.
An uneven order nonlinearity produces even order distortions, this might explain our preference for single ended devices, that predominantly produces distortion of the same nature as air.
Our brain have due to natural selection been optimised, with ease, to filter out excactly the kind of distortions that dominates the medium that we are in: Air.
It would be to our disadvantage if we just by being, would get a headache due to the overload of our signal processing device between our ears.

More down to normal engineering:
Manufacturers of compression drivers have in the "recent" years introduced drivers with short throats and larger flare rates to measurebly minimize the amount of produced distortion that stems from airs pressure nonlinearity.

The discontinuities you mention are also important, not only as sources of distortion but also to nonlinear frequency responce, but that is a different story.

Regards
Erik
08-09-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,131
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 42
Post ID: 4983
Reply to: 4981
The pressure transducing systems.

 be wrote:
I know they knew a lot in those days and could have dealt with the nonlinearity of air if they wished to or if there attention was drawn to it.

Actually, you are right. The problem during those days was not with shortage of knowledge but with absent of needs to do better then they did.

 be wrote:
Actually air is nonlinear with a uneven order nonlinear connection between pressure and volumen by audio frequencies at least. An uneven order nonlinearity produces even order distortions, this might explain our preference for single ended devices, that predominantly produces distortion of the same nature as air. Our brain have due to natural selection been optimised, with ease, to filter out excactly the kind of distortions that dominates the medium that we are in: Air. It would be to our disadvantage if we just by being, would get a headache due to the overload of our signal processing device between our ears.

I understand it very well, but you also have to take under consideration that no one even approach to construct of driver-horn as Sound source but they rather treat it as a pressure transducing system.

 be wrote:
More down to normal engineering: Manufacturers of compression drivers have in the "recent" years introduced drivers with short throats and larger flare rates to measurebly minimize the amount of produced distortion that stems from airs pressure nonlinearity.

Yes, I know about it, but at the same they a lot of other “inventions” that do not work out… Anyhow, Erick, let keep this thread dedicated to Jessie’s project.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-10-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 43
Post ID: 4986
Reply to: 4983
Technically Yes... & No

While not qualified to comment on the subject at this depth, I am very much following the discussion, and though it may seem slightly "off-thread", it does not go unappreciated. A technical understanding is necessary and I am always trying to learn more...

That said, I tend to agree with Romy’s statement:

"...It is my believe that NO one TRULY knows what the hell it going on with horns and no one has any idea how a driver will sound when it will be horn loaded..."

While I am wary of those who speak with absolute certainty on subjects like the genesis of man, life after death, and to some extent, horns, horns are something we might one day understand. Just how much of this might be helpful is another question.

The grace with which one descends a flight of stairs does not depend on his ability to consciously solve in real-time the pages of logarithmic (?) equations describing his movements.


jd*



How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
08-15-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,131
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 44
Post ID: 5037
Reply to: 4986
A playback system as a statement of mind.
 jessie.dazzle wrote:
A technical understanding is necessary and I am always trying to learn more...
Jessie,

you might at this point have worries/interests about technicalities of horns operation or a desire to find theoretical justifications of horn functioning but the most interesting thing is that all of it has very  indirect relation to the actual “truly important factor” in acoustic system. The 6-way installation that you are trying to build is a fine but even if you properly sliced the channels, used proper and better drivers, better building techniques, properly integrated the channels and even if you correctly employed the full spectra of “Macondo Axioms” then it might NOT necessary produce for you THE Right Result. It will sound OK but there is much-much more then just “OK”.

In  a few month, after you installed your 6-chenals, power it -  is the most interesting, the most complex and the most thrilling things will take place – you would need from an array of “frequencies pushing channels” to teach your acoustic system to play sound PROPERLY. Unfortunately this step, the most important step among all, is not just undermined by the Morons out there but even the discussing the methods that might be used to do so is a semi-banned subject among the most audio people. The typically-primitive audio people conduct random events and then talk about consequences. It is similar to a conductor who ask his players to take accidental notes with chaotic time intervals and then try to declare the result and as a “new voice of the 21 century”….

So, it a year from now and you have the powered 6-chennals in your listening room. Your “6-chennals” has high sensitivity, better drivers, used proper integration techniques, good powering and it is properly installed in your room. It produces some kind OK Sound. However, your “6-chennals” is not just good hi-fi but also is a perfect and superbly sensitive machine that allow you to adjust the tonal contrasts, the dynamic accentuations, the vividness of transients, the tonal interconnectivity, the fate of harmonics in complex tones, the relationship between timbers and harmonics, the quality of tones, setting all of it and many other things in a way how it should be. What is the most critical is that with your “6-chenals” you will be able to do it very naturally, without diminishing anything else.

That all might eventually bring you to a very complex question: how you would like Sound to be…. and ultimately it might lead you to the biggest subject of the entire audio: who we are. It might take a year or two to learn experiencing and reacting to the needs and capacity of your “6-chennals”. During that time the evolution of your “6-chennals” will follow the substance of your personality and depth of your musical/sonic interests. Interestingly that at this point you might discover a completely new definition of the very common audio words: resolution, soundstage, imaging and the similar, however, then those words will have absolutely DIFFERENT meaning then for other people and you will push completely different buttons to get your new understanding of “resolution” or “imaging”. I would not be surprised if at that time you will discover that for further advancement of your acoustic system you might find that reading Tchaikovsky diaries would be more beneficial for you then reading the Olson’s “Elements of Acoustic Engineering”…

What would be the most interesting is that you might discover that you do not need to know a lot of technical things in order to “know” them. Some purely technical aspects will become an organic extension of your sonic interests, like a tennis rocket might be a natural extension of hand for a well-practiced tennis player. Do not be surprised if at that time you might loose any interest to a cookie-cutter audio industry’s offering. You might feel then that if a person does not practice his own “tailored sound” (and it has NOTHING to do with DIY movement) then the person does not deserve your audio interest. You might discover a new ways to think and to talk about acoustic systems, or about audio generally - you still will be using the same nouns, verbs and adjectives, but they will have very DEFERENT meaning to you. Be prepared that then, many thing that you will be able to express about audio will have very little in common with what the Audio-Morons ™ are able to comprehend… You will  be visiting other audio people listening their playbacks, trying to understand what they were trying to express by their Sound but you will recognize them as  numb and deaf hobbyists, proud in their stupid “ownership status” and enthusiastic that they have a mob cretins who share their hobby with them….

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-20-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 45
Post ID: 5074
Reply to: 5037
The (hopefully) ever-evolving self

Romy,

Thanks for the thoughtful writing... Sorry my response is not exactly "time-aligned"... I've been meaning to reply for the past few days, but my other life has been in the way...

Romy's quotes in blue :

In  a few month, after you installed your 6-chenals, power it -  is the most interesting, the most complex and the most thrilling things will take place – you would need from an array of “frequencies pushing channels” to teach your acoustic system to play sound PROPERLY.

This is a moment I have been anticipating for a long time, and will address it as sincerely as possible; taking no shortcuts... It is the reason I designed so much versatility into the horn locating frame and into the horn making process.

Unfortunately this step, the most important step among all, is not just undermined by the Morons out there but even the discussing the methods that might be used to do so is a semi-banned subject among the most audio people.

Yes... Things might be different if there were a manufacturer that squarely addressed these issues while at the same time educating his elected communicators (his distributors and the press), and then built a comprehensive data base (a web address) that skillfully educated potentially interested customers in terms they could easily grasp. This may in fact already exist, but if so, it is the super-rare exception.

That all might eventually bring you to a very complex question: how you would like Sound to be…. and ultimately it might lead you to the biggest subject of the entire audio: who we are. It might take a year or two to learn experiencing and reacting to the needs and capacity of your “6-chennals”. During that time the evolution of your “6-chennals” will follow the substance of your personality and depth of your musical/sonic interests.

I believe that any serious audio installation will absolutely reflect the character of the user.

What would be the most interesting is that you might discover that you do not need to know a lot of technical things in order to “know” them. Some purely technical aspects will become an organic extension of your sonic interests.

Instinct and intuition are my main tools. Developing them (and my confidence in them) is the result of their continued use. Both are in fact based on technical experience and the ability to project and extrapolate from it and from that of other domains.

Do not be surprised if at that time you might loose any interest to a cookie-cutter audio industry’s offering.

Well this weekend a buyer came for the speakers of my previous life. I had kept them until now as a reference. I have owned them for eight years in 4 locations; I know their performance very well... They have been one of few audio devices that I would consider educational in a long-term sense. I would not have sold them so early if they had not been so clearly dwarfed by the indicated potential of this project.

You might feel then that if a person does not practice his own “tailored sound” (and it has NOTHING to do with DIY movement) then the person does not deserve your audio interest

The typically-primitive audio people conduct random events and then talk about consequences

By comparison to the rest of society, I have observed that people who "do audio", are in general quite intelligent, articulate, and literate... Those who spend big money continually swapping components do what they do, knowing deep down that they are playing a game of chance, but they do have the cash and they do get some satisfaction (sometimes even sonically speaking) from this game. They frequently cannot defend their actions on logical grounds, but can easily afford to go on this way. Because they are otherwise intelligent, it is normal that they become emotional when asked to defend their illogic... Though it is kind of moronic, I find it human. They may even believe they have found absolute truth in audio... There are worse things to do with one's cash and time. I am however convinced that if given the chance to have their ears pointed in a more right direction, these people would take the event very seriously... It is a question of exposure. For now, they are trying to make sense of a lack of information. The sort of exposure that might help is not easily organized. I believe that in sound reproduction, any person can naturally recognize large-scale right from wrong, if presented with something that is more or less right...

My opinion
is that there is simply a lack of "right" out there. This leaves those who "do audio" to extract "audio truth" from what is a pre-polluted base... Basically, subtly varying levels of what is in any case fundamentally wrong... Imagine the objective in Audio were to produce pure yellow (a primary color)... Its like we have been presented with a short cut to simulate pure yellow, which involves starting with brown and adding copious amounts of "negative violet" (violet being the compliment or opposite of yellow). And so rather than being subjected to varying levels of rightness, we get varying levels in the quality of the disguise which masks a nevertheless perverted origin.

Interestingly that at this point you might discover a completely new definition of the very common audio words: resolution, soundstage, imaging and the similar, however, then those words will have absolutely DIFFERENT meaning then for other people and you will push completely different buttons to get your new understanding of “resolution” or “imaging”.

You might discover a new ways to think and to talk about acoustic systems, or about audio generally

I have always been very uncomfortable using (or processing) "the accepted" audio vocabulary and perceptions... I think it has to do with a general dislike for code-heavy communication (all codes, including visual)... When forced to adopt too much code that is foreign to my own constitution my body starts leaking acid. This has been a source of unimaginable problems since birth! On the other hand, I admit that I can't resist employing these codes in a humorous context!

jd*




How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
09-28-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 46
Post ID: 5450
Reply to: 5074
Centering the S2 (images)

Romy quotes in blue (pulled from the "Adding one more channel to the Macondos" thread)

"1) Make sure that your cone is properly center in a gap. It is very important as misaligned cone will do compression at bottom end"

I feel confident that I am able to get the diaphragm centered... I don't fight it. It is also important to apply the same torque to all screws securing the diaphragm calmping plate. Those having experience with mechanical assembly will have developed a good feel for this sort of work.

"2) Make sure that the driver’s center are absolutely in the center of the horn and absolutely parallel to the horn’s axis. That is also very important with MF driver. If the driver does not sit in a perfect optical center of the horn then it will have very sever anomalies, particularly when the horn is towed in or out. With the spherical, low throat horns, as we have, it is very simple to misalign the center of the driver for a few fractions of mm"

To locate the S2s I use a plate made from 10mm thick aluminum, which is cut and trued on a lathe... the large central hole for the S2 is bored and threaded while still on the lathe. Six mounting holes are then drilled in the plate using a mill. This plate is then paired with a concentric spacer which allows establishing the axis of the horn as it is "turned". Once done, the S2 has no choice but to be centered.

Here are some images of the mounting plate and the process :

S2_05bw.jpg
S2 with mounting plate (rear view)

S2_06bw.jpg
S2 with mounting plate with spacer (front view)...
This spacer is of a thickness that corresponds to the
non-threaded tip of the nose of the S2.


Plate_01bw.jpg
Mounting plate with anchor (plates cost a fortune to
have machined, but the result is worth the cost)

Check_center_01bw.jpg
Critical step part I : Verifying that the plate is centered
before locking it in place with hemp and plaster...
To do this the entire assembly is rotated on its axis while 
measuring and adjusting the clearance between the plate
and the stationary template (at right)

Mounted_01bw.jpg
Critical step part II : Locking the plate
anchor in place with hemp and plaster

Mounted_02bw.jpg
Plate and upper stabilizer amr (horn is done in this
image)

180Hz_done_01bw.jpg
Done and waiting for the core to drop out

This horn required that I do a special little dance involving candles, insence, and a big rubber mallet before it would release the core... Next time I will film the ritual and post it on YouTube.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
09-28-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,131
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 47
Post ID: 5452
Reply to: 5450
The cool plaster idea, the Xenons and Summarits….

Ah, your horn this way does not have own axis and the axis of the back plate become actually the axis of the horn? This way you get rid the ugliest element of co-axising – the integration of the axis of horn and the back plate. Very-very cool indeed! I wish I was able to do it. My MF driver has two metal plates that have a few mm freedom between each other allowing them to be re-centered.

It looks like a very elegant solution of the centering problem but in practice it is not so elegant and more pain in ass. 

BTW, in your scenario the center pipe that is sitting in the throat looks like smaller then 1.5”. Does it mean that you will eventually open up the horn intake diameter with sand paper until the throat hit the S2’s output diameter?

Do not tell me that in order to do so you will be using the methods that Zeiss used in 30s when they polish their Leica!  Well, it will be one way to assure your new horns’ Wife Acceptance  :-)

Rgs, Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-28-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 48
Post ID: 5453
Reply to: 5452
Core diameter
Romy wrote :

"...BTW, in your scenario the center pipe that is sitting in the throat looks like smaller then 1.5”. Does it mean that you will eventually open up the horn intake diameter with sand paper until the throat hit the S2’s output diameter?..."

Yes the center tube is smaller than the 1.5" opening required by the S2... However, the core around this tube is exactly 1.5".

In the attached image you can see the core dropping... This always leaves a very thin "flashing" that needs to be trimmed back to the main inner wall which is sized to exactly 1.5".


jd*

PS : Time for a little off-thread rant here :
Romy, it would be so nice if you could make it so us Mac users could post images as images rather than attachments, and while your'e at it, if you could make it so we have access to the use of colored text, and bold type, and all the other options...!!! (images posted as images were uploaded using a Windoze machine that uh... belongs to someone else!)


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
09-28-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 49
Post ID: 5454
Reply to: 5453
Core diameter Part II
While I'm at it, here is another attached image showing the core.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
09-28-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,644
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 50
Post ID: 5456
Reply to: 5454
Rubber bucket!
Jessie, I am still following with great interest; that is so cool!

The last time I had some machining like that done I did not ask the price ahead of time.  After all, how much could it be???

As ever, your solutions are elegant and adaptive, and the results are graceful and persuasive.

If it sounds crappy you can still show it at the Pompedoux!

Best regards,
Paul S
11-23-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 51
Post ID: 5920
Reply to: 4898
I'll miss the cats
Hello friends,

Romy wrote (in the context of the MingSu/Jackson/Goto upper-mid bass horn thread):

"...Yep, I would hang the midbass above and as you said put an upperbass on a floor to anchor the center image. Something similar to what Jessie is doing...'

I want to let visitors know why I have not posted further reports of my progress.

Very simple... The WAF has had enough of the horns... She's met a new guy and is throwing me and a few tons of plaster out of the house! Worst of all, she has custody of the cats!

This will delay the project, as I have to find a new room that is large enough, then figure out how to move it all.

This will not stop the project... Though I have not done much for the past month, I should be back to work soon. The exWAF and I are now "roommates" (!!!), and I have negotiated the continued use of the space to get the project (with the exception of the 45Hz horns) to a more or less finished state before moving it.

I will post more soon (I'll see if I can get a shot of her throwing things... Clearly the new guy is not measuring up!... Meanwhile I'm doing my best to get him interested in horns...)

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
11-23-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,131
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 52
Post ID: 5922
Reply to: 5920
Wow, that was brutal even to read!

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Very simple... The WAF has had enough of the horns... She's met a new guy and is throwing me and a few tons of plaster out of the house! Worst of all, she has custody of the cats!

This will delay the project, as I have to find a new room that is large enough, then figure out how to move it all.

This will not stop the project... Though I have not done much for the past month, I should be back to work soon. The exWAF and I are now "roommates" (!!!), and I have negotiated the continued use of the space to get the project (with the exception of the 45Hz horns) to a more or less finished state before moving it.

I will post more soon (I'll see if I can get a shot of her throwing things... Clearly the new guy is not measuring up!... Meanwhile I'm doing my best to get him interested in horns...)

Was she just a women of was she a wife? If you get the new guy interested in horns then you can move in together and… throw her away and then just to “rent” women for a period.

To be a little more serious those “capital” projects do impact social live quite insistently. I sincerely hope that in your case the woman did not juts “had enough of the horns” but the true reasons were somewhere else…

The horns? I, perhaps as many other men, am fantasizing about the woman for whom a definition of happiness would be to have a honeymoon bed installed in a mouth of 18Hz horn. Unfortunately those lowest frequencies affect females in a way that it put them asleep (it is a biologically know phenomena)… so you might have vivid reproduction of cello but you will have vague female that goes along with that cello…

Anyhow, those properly done 50Hz horn projects are always a bitch and a person who do it always end up ether with divorce, or with death, or with hernia, or with bankruptcy. In many instances it is not as important how good the midbass horn was but rather the person ability to integrate the horn into the entire playback system AND into the entire persons’ life. In many instances it is way more “smarter” juts to pay off and to have somebody else to buld the damn 50Hz horns for you. As I understand it was what Ming Su did….

Rgs, the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-03-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,131
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 53
Post ID: 7095
Reply to: 4898
Lamm ML2 and Jessie’s system

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
I don’t have a pair of Melquaid DSETs. I drive the horns with a pair of Lamm ML2s, running full range. I use a second pair of M1.1s for lower bass. The ML2s are hard to fault. In fact at this point, I can only find positive things to say about them. When I finally identify a good reason (sonic) to do it, I will try building a pair of DSETs… If the 45 Hz horns don’t kill me first.
The Lamm ML2.0 is very fine amp and it would be VERY hard to beat it with S2. Milq or other amps should not be the answers if you have nothing negative to say about ML2.0. There is however two things that I might propose you to do just sake of discovery of possible.

1)    If you are not in very large room and your bass section are not 90dB sensitive then take one of yours left ML2.0, bring it to right channel and drive with it the right’s channel bass system instead of M1.1. It will be mono and it will be ML2.0 driving bass and HF of your right channel. See if you like the result what ML2.0 does with bass. Be careful though. What I did this experiment it cost me $15.000 for another pair of ML2.0. If you do so then post what you discover.

2)    Driving your 4 horn from a single ML2.0 you might feel a need to slightly alter harmonic structure for one of the channels. You still might do it to a degree with a single ML2.0. The ML2.0 has 3 taps: 4 Ohm, 8Ohm and 16Ohm. You might run each channel from own tap. The more ML2.0 will be load then more harmonics and fewer transients you will have. Mitigating between the taps mapping to the channels it is possible slightly optimize the results with respect to the specific drivers.  Of course it would be more fun if ML2.0 expose outside 14-20 re-mapable sections instead of just 3 taps then you would have more leverage but it would be another story…

Rgs, The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-03-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 54
Post ID: 7098
Reply to: 7095
Bi-amping & multi-tapping
Quotes from Romy in blue :

"...If you are not in very large room and your bass section are not 90dB sensitive then take one of yours left ML2.0, bring it to right channel and drive with it the right’s channel bass system instead of M1.1. It will be mono and it will be ML2.0 driving bass and HF of your right channel. See if you like the result what ML2.0 does with bass..."


Are you suggesting : 
   1) Running the upper bass horn from a second ML2 ?
   2) Running the lower bass enclosures (sealed boxes) from a second ML2 ?
   3) Running both the upper bass horn and lower bass enclosures (sealed boxes) from a second ML2 ?

I don't expect there would be much benefit in running the lower bass enclosures (sealed boxes) from a second ML2s, but I could be wrong. It would however for sure be interesting to give the future 45 Hz horns + the upper bass a dedicated pair of amps.

"...The ML2.0 has 3 taps: 4 Ohm, 8 Ohm and 16 Ohm. You might run each channel from own tap..."

I have not tried this... I had been meaning to make sure it would not some how result in damage before doing so (was planning to ask Lamm... Up to now I've been using the 16 Ohm taps).

Thanks for the suggestions... I will post test results here (first I need to finish the frames).

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
04-03-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,131
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 55
Post ID: 7099
Reply to: 7098
The virtue of the experiment.
 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Are you suggesting : 1) Running the upper bass horn from a second ML2 ? 2) Running the lower bass enclosures (sealed boxes) from a second ML2 ? 3) Running both the upper bass horn and lower bass enclosures (sealed boxes) from a second ML2 ?
I was suggesting to try to run the lower bass enclosures (sealed boxes) from a second ML2.
 jessie.dazzle wrote:
I don't expect there would be much benefit in running the lower bass enclosures (sealed boxes) from a second ML2s, but I could be wrong.
This is exactly the virtue of the experiment. I did have the same ML2 + M1.1 and the M1.1 has phenomenal bass. One day I put the second ML2.0 to drive my lower bass section, you would need to play with loading. It was “different type” of bass. You might or might not like it but I assure you that it will be educational and you would need a half hour to do it.
 jessie.dazzle wrote:
I have not tried this... I had been meaning to make sure it would not some how result in damage before doing so (was planning to ask Lamm... Up to now I've been using the 16 Ohm taps).
…and what make you to believe that Lamm will tell you truth? Anyhow, you WILL NOT damage the amp but you will need to play more with loading, plate current and plate voltage. Lamm runs his 6C33C at relatively low voltage and high current that make me to wonder if he use a partially demagnetizing coil in his output transformer to extend the transformer LF response. When I have ML2 I did not paid attention to all of it and now it is hard to say anything….

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-03-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,644
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 56
Post ID: 7100
Reply to: 7098
"Bottomless" bass
Well, congratulations, Jessie, and welcome back to the Surreal World!

For a while there your posts were reading like a dime novel!

I hope you will try the doubled ML2s to see if you also hear the unusual effect the ML2 has on bass.

What I get is the sense that it just keeps going, like listening down a mine shaft, or something, except in 4-D.

Now that I've identified it I am very reluctant to let it go just to get "tighter" bass, or whatever it is we mostly take as "bass".

There was a time that I figured to just use a SS plate amp or a boosted version of same, or whatever to take over and lift the roll-off below 38 Hz,  But that just won't do it for me anymore, because now I realize there is still important "Music" down there.

The ML2 may not go "deeper" with synth bass; I really don't know - or care.  But it does seem to keep its amazing harmonic integrity down as far as I am able to detect by hearing, and it also retains an "open" quality that integrates but does not co-mingle harmonics and ambience from top to way the Hell down there.

Maybe some other amps do this, too; but I have not heard them.

My recent bitching about the ML2 has mostly stemmed from the fact that I have discovered and reveled in this intoxicating low-end capability, but then it turns out it only really blooms when the electricity is right for it.

IMO, it is worth playing with/dialing in your sources and upstream gear and speakers and futzing with plate loading until you can at least hear what the ML2 can do before you start off in another direction.

Anyway, it's good to hear you're in recovery. 

I hope you will post some pictures soon.

Best regards,
Paul S
06-23-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 57
Post ID: 7657
Reply to: 5454
Photo update (part 1)

jd wrote :
"...While I'm at it, here is another attached image showing the core..."

Well its been a long time since I've posted photos of the project... I'll be doing that now.

To start off, I noticed that the link to a previously available photo is no longer posted; this is normal, as I've since moved and no longer have the same ISP.

So, here is the missing image (and a couple more) loaded this time directly onto Romy's server... They are photos showing the core being removed from a 180 Hz horn.

Core  drop 180 Hz 03.jpg
Core dropping out

Core removal 180 Hz 02.jpg
Core removal

Core & horn 180 Hz 01.jpg
Core ready for production of next horn

More photos coming.

jd*



How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
06-23-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 58
Post ID: 7658
Reply to: 7657
115 Hz made easy
And now, going back to page 2 of this thread; here we pick up with some shots of the upper bass horn and the associated primitive "tooling"

Mold 115 Hz 01.jpg
Mold without core

Mold & core 115 Hz 01.jpg
Mold with core. Before core is put in place, mold is loaded with a thick
coat of plaster and hemp, which is visible here. Once this starts to solidify,
a pair of ropes are slipped in. From there, the mold is topped off with plaster,
which is allowed to set up hard.


Core removal 115 Hz 01.jpg
Natural expansion of the setting plaster helps kick out the core (with the
rubber mallet seen in the background)

Horn in mold 115 Hz 01.jpg
Here the core has been set aside and the inner surface
of the horn is for the firt time visible.


Demolding 115 Hz 01.jpg
Lifting the horn half out of the mold; this is how to do a 4-man job with
the help of only 2 cats (later the part will lose about 100 lbs in water,
dropping down to a lithe 210 lbs for the half horn).

Adjusting gap 115 Hz 01.jpg
While still fresh and damp, the plaster is easy to work;
at this point both halves of one horn are positioned on
end facing eachother (held together by rope out of view
of the camera), and the gap is adjusted until no light
passes (and the inspector in the foreground says its ok).

Test fit to frame 115 Hz 01.jpg
Making sure the horn sits properly in the lower part of
the frame.

Test fit to frame 115 Hz 02.jpg
Another view of the horn sitting in the frame (this is
the point when the WAF went all squirly on me).

More photos (finish work, and the setup in the new place) coming later.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
06-23-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,131
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 59
Post ID: 7662
Reply to: 7658
The squirly women, horns and cactuses.

Jessie, looks nice. I never did it myself and can not appreciate the labor went into it. Horn-wise everything looks well- thought out. I personally would probably go for a monopod frame above the midbass horn (mergeing it in middle) as I feel it make the architecture more elegant, more airy and visually less demanding.

One thing I would like to comment upon, knowing that you vent over the subject of women and playback. I certainly do not claim any expertise in this subject… but show me somebody who do?

Horn installations are ugly from female perspective. What however I discovered is that horns might be nicely camouflaged among plants and women generally love plants. I means the section of room with acoustic system might be presented as garden, with good taste it might look very natural and seems do not interfere with sonic objectives. For whatever reasons females’ psychology works in a way that when we try to humanize playback under the mask of family decor then females feel that we demonstrate care about THEM. So, with good gardening taste and smart lightening is it is possible to softening the “hobby”. Another “softening” might be the explanation that if you spend all your audio time and audio money for heroin then you would never leave rehabs or were dead from overdoes now

BTW, If you consider something like gardening then make sure that your Cats would tolerate in house plants. My Koshka hate anything alive in my home beside her. She hardly tolerates me……

Romy The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-24-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,644
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 60
Post ID: 7663
Reply to: 7657
Primitive...
Geez, Jessie

That's about as COOL as ANYTHING I EVER SAW!!!

So, you used to be:

tool and die guy

mold maker

brain surgeon...

IMO you are bound to succeed, if only because you are not painting yourself into a corner.

Not only do the designs and methods look right-on right out of the chute, but you have wisely left yourself room/means/method to modify on the fly.

Thanks for sharing.

C'est parfait!

Best regards,
Paul S
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