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  »  New  45Hz Bass Horn..  Can We Ever be Saved From Ourselves?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     23  314583  09-19-2006
  »  New  8" Goto Woofer for 60Hz Horn..  It's not a Goto 8in driver...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  87166  11-03-2008
  »  New  The Macondo’s Upper Bass Channel: what is next?..  Görlich again...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     30  289642  10-28-2007
  »  New  Jessie Dazzle Project..  Will this better to be auditable?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     172  1558583  08-03-2007
  »  New  Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..  Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     478  2913633  03-28-2010
  »  New  Problems with horns: upper bass ..  Must it be about loading?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     109  1167256  03-25-2005
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  2137802  07-26-2009
  »  New  Macondo’s lowest channel...  What truly are you tryin to accomplish?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     150  1393008  09-15-2010
  »  New  Practical Guide for Back Chambers Tuning...  Back chamber’s cost-benefit....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  75637  10-21-2006
  »  New  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ..  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  18022  10-08-2010
  »  New  Midbass impedance bumps -- why and what to do?..  You need to stop deceive yourself....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     18  193377  10-21-2010
  »  New  Mystery of bass horn calibration: Radiating Surface Dee..  Mystery of bass horn calibration: Radiating Surface Dee...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  17225  02-03-2011
  »  New  Impulse response, short notes and midbass horns...  A possible solution to better impulse?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  127832  06-13-2011
  »  New  My new “New” listening room, 2024..  That is not enough efforts in this direction....  Audio Discussions  Forum     31  16998  05-08-2024
08-18-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,128
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 181
Post ID: 14275
Reply to: 14188
One mounth is glued, not mine mounth...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Ok, the last 2 sections of the left horn are glued. It does not have the “corners” glued in and it has just 50 % of all frame brasses but it already give an idea of what it is. As now two people can move it, hardly but can. I think as I will be solidifying it more I would need 3 people to bring it upstairs.

Midbass_progress_45.JPG




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-19-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,128
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 182
Post ID: 14277
Reply to: 14275
Ok, now the concept becomes a reality.
fiogf49gjkf0d

The mouth of the left channel is done.  Now it has the corners are glued in - you can see in the joins between the pans are chorded – you can see it on the first image.  It is left just to finks beefing up the frame – you can see on the second image that I started to do it with one side and to clean/finish the horn inside. In the third image you can see the complete one side of the horn. I use my idea of random beefinization – this is how the whole horn will be done. The concept implies a random combination of 7 elements:

1)      ¾ Baltic Birch +  3x4 studs
2)      ¾ Baltic Birch +  3x2 studs
3)      ¾ Baltic Birch +  3x2 studs that are not shimmed to the frame but buffered by polyurethane foam
4)      ¾ Baltic Birch + ¾ Baltic Birch
5)      ¾ Baltic Birch + roof cement
6)      Small open sells of ¾ Baltic Birch
7)      ¾ Baltic Birch + sand (atop of the horn)

All together the surface sound much heavier then 1.5” of Baltic Birch. It is a lot of labor to do this but I do like the result VERY much. It does look ugly but it was exactly how I warn it to be. My carpenter feels the I am crazy as he things that we will never lift it up. Well, fuck it, I do this horn once in my life and I would like it to be done “seriously”.

Midbass_progress_46.JPG

Midbass_progress_47.JPG

Midbass_progress_48.JPG

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-20-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,128
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 183
Post ID: 14278
Reply to: 13597
What to do with mouth cover?
fiogf49gjkf0d

This is a quandary that I am thinking about now; feel free to bring your views.

The big two mouths on the top of my room – to cover them with fabric or not?

Here are some coned and pros that are spinning in my mind.

FOR fabric cover:

1)      Less demands or no deans at all for the in-horn finishing (that is HUGE)
2)      Better thermo control
3)      A sheet of fabric will act a very MINOR  low pass filter
4)      More convention décor of the room
5)      Fabric  over mouth will act as a consumer of HF that will hit the large Triangular wall (that is important)
6)      No need to clear dust inside of the horn from time to time (some horn practitioners know what I mean)

Against fabric cover:

1)      The horns inside must be well sanded, finished, pained or covered with something (a LOT of work).
2)      Two open mouths going deep to the attic will provide VERY sexy addition to the room décor in a geeky way.
3)      I might play with lights inside the mouths
4)      It “might” sound better
5)      I will be able to see if any structural damage begin to take place
6)      The absence of the “fabric wall” in place of the mouths will create no reflective surface.

I am still thinking and have no ruling on the subject.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-20-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 184
Post ID: 14279
Reply to: 14278
What to wear...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Despite all practical advantages to be had in covering the mouths, I don't believe there's any significant technical advantage. What is likely to weigh more heavily is that there's something very irresistible about looking at an object that speaks so honestly of its function; to the human brain, this is a source of pleasure that is difficult to deny. I think you're going to really want to see them.  If it were me I'd cover the part of the wall surrounding the mouths, using a sound-absorbing material, leaving the inside of the horns exposed. This will also contribute to the perception of space (more space) in the room, particularly if the interior of the horns is done in a light color.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
08-21-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,128
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 185
Post ID: 14280
Reply to: 14277
A lot of work....
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, what can I say; it is a LOT of work. The last night I was working up-to 5AM, beefing up the frame, trying different solidifiers and dumper, and evaluating the impact they do.  I have fine the mouth of this horn and it is insultingly heavy – two people will not lift it up.  Also I found a VERY good configuration for loading the frame. The bottom panels have heavy framing and braising – you can see at the third image. The walls are pretty much 2 ¾” heavily dumped with foam. I think it is more than enough, particularly considering that the bottom of the mouth will be bolted by 6” screws to frame of the house. The side panels have the mosaic structure as I wrote above. The large top side of the horn have ordinary “light” frame and all space is filled with 2” sand.  People, the sand dumped Baltic bitch sounds phenomenal – the best almond all materials that I have tried and with lowest resonance. The sand is laid in the space between frame and it covered with thick fabric (thickest 12 ounce tarp from Law’s).  The perimeter around the fabric is covered with liquid nails and stapled above. It looks very good and it responses very good. I am very glad with result but it is a lot of work. I am tired like hell and I discovering the fragments of glue on body in the locations that same to mention….

Midbass_progress_49.JPG

Midbass_progress_50.JPG

Midbass_progress_51.JPG




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-24-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,128
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 186
Post ID: 14303
Reply to: 13597
The horny light or the lighted horns.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I am more and more inclining to finish my horn in the textured paint of the color of my room. However, lately I have another “idee fixe”. My listening room has a very pleasant light pattern, something that was here before and something that I added. As a former photographer I like the light accents and as current Cat I like darn rooms with light spots…. In addition to all mishigas ideas that I put in construction of my midbass horn I am considering to but in a light sources into the horn bells.  I wonder what kind light sole I might build-in in order to be affected but do not compromise the structural integrity of the horn. I am considering putting in two 15W (perhaps red( lights that would in level with surface of second section – right in beginning of the horn…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-25-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 177
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 187
Post ID: 14312
Reply to: 14303
Cover/no cover
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
I am more and more inclining to finish my horn in the textured paint of the color of my room. However, lately I have another “idee fixe”. My listening room has a very pleasant light pattern, something that was here before and something that I added. As a former photographer I like the light accents and as current Cat I like darn rooms with light spots…. In addition to all mishigas ideas that I put in construction of my midbass horn I am considering to but in a light sources into the horn bells.  I wonder what kind light sole I might build-in in order to be affected but do not compromise the structural integrity of the horn. I am considering putting in two 15W (perhaps red( lights that would in level with surface of second section – right in beginning of the horn…

The Cat


Romy,

If you put a light (say 25 watt) in the horn or in the back chamber you will be able to keep a more constant temperature control. That may be important or not.

Also, you can line the inside of the horn (or outside) with burlap or some other material, maybe cork, use a staple gun to attach it.

Herman
08-25-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zako
Posts 85
Joined on 05-25-2008

Post #: 188
Post ID: 14317
Reply to: 14312
Red lights
fiogf49gjkf0d
Red lights would make it look like the red light whore house districk in Amsterdam....
08-25-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 177
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 189
Post ID: 14318
Reply to: 14317
Whores?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 zako wrote:
Red lights would make it look like the red light whore house districk in Amsterdam....


Now that may actually be a good thing. Although I've never been to Amsterdam, but bringing the spirit to Boston is positive change. Good pointer, Zako.
08-25-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 190
Post ID: 14319
Reply to: 14317
The Cat-House
fiogf49gjkf0d

Zako wrote:

"...Red lights would make it look like the red light whore house district in Amsterdam..."

Zako, take a look at the following definition for "Cathouse" (Cat-House):
http://www.google.fr/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=define%3A+cathouse&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

Red light would be perfect.

jd*




How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
08-25-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,128
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 191
Post ID: 14320
Reply to: 14317
The Red lights in whorns...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 zako wrote:
Red lights would make it look like the red light whore house districk in Amsterdam....

I do not know about whore house districts – it does not bother me too much.  The decision I made to built into second section (from throat) 1” thick 4”deametr Plexiglas round window. Then I will be able to bring into it any light I wish.

I more and more inclined nowadays to finish horn with my room color. The room is finished by sea sand color – it light and soft tone. The hone most like will be the same but texture surface. The light I would like to come from horn will not be the modeling light but rather filling light. I was thinking about 5W-8W luminescent light behind some kind of color filter that would give to the whole horn some worm feeling. I do not need the horn light to actually light the room but just a bit bright up the horn’s bell.

The idea of the red light comes to me with my recent experiences. When I bought this house it came with way outdated bathroom. I completely rebuilt the entire bathroom: new walls/floor, new pipes, new electricity and the all the rest restroom elements – the whole full blown scenario. While I was doing it I put in play some of my long-standing preferences – to have my own bathroom to behave as it is a hotel restroom.  I love how some of the hotel restroom are made and my bathroom doe the same. It has ways to be instantly heated (1.75kW fan), it has no shower curtains anywhere but has pitched flood and drain hole in the middle of the room, it has some other features. One of the features that I put in play is a Red Heating Lamp at the ceiling.  I loved those lamps in bathrooms all my life but I never had it.  Besides the nice instant heat then give a very pleasant tone.
 
Since I begun to use my new bathroom I find myself absolutely in love with the Heating Lamp. I fill up my 95 gallon bathtub and while I soaking in there the red light from the Heating Lamp works phenomenally pleasant. In fact I very frequently do not even use the white light in bathroom. So, from here I feel that red right in the belly of the horns will give me the similar pleasure. Hey, if not then it would not be a big deal to change the color filters.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-25-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,128
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 192
Post ID: 14322
Reply to: 14280
The connection between first and second section is done.
fiogf49gjkf0d
This connection is the only connection that my horn will have. From one side it will be back chamber with hard-attached first section. The first section is very critical as it has a transition from 7” round throe to trapezoid of the rest of the horn. From another side it will be the rest 6 sections…

BWT, why the work on the connector was in progress my home was attacked by a colony of wild turkeys.  If not the heroic actions of my Koshka the turkeys might took over my house and to eat glue from my midbass horns….

Midbass_progress.JPG

Midbass_progress.JPG

Midbass_progress.JPG

Midbass_progress.JPG

Midbass_progress.JPG

Midbass_progress.JPG

KoshkaHunting.JPG




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 177
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 193
Post ID: 14324
Reply to: 14322
Dinner
fiogf49gjkf0d
You must have some fresh turkey meat after building such a beauty of a horn. Looks delicious. And share it with your cat.
08-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 194
Post ID: 14327
Reply to: 14322
Nuts & bolts of assembly
fiogf49gjkf0d
When doing the final assembly, you might want to use Nylock type self-locking nuts:
http://www.nylocknut.com/

Looking at the images, this might require that you use slightly longer bolts (the few threads exposed beyond the existing nuts are those that start to taper to a smaller diameter and may not offer enough interference with the nylon ring of a self-locking nut).

This type of self-locking nut can be re-used.

Available at Lowes and Home Depot.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
08-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,128
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 195
Post ID: 14328
Reply to: 14327
The type of the flange and some plans.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 jessie.dazzle wrote:
When doing the final assembly, you might want to use Nylock type self-locking nuts:
http://www.nylocknut.com/

Looking at the images, this might require that you use slightly longer bolts (the few threads exposed beyond the existing nuts are those that start to taper to a smaller diameter and may not offer enough interference with the nylon ring of a self-locking nut).

This type of self-locking nut can be re-used.

Available at Lowes and Home Depot.

Yes, there are many different types of self-locking nuts; we will be using them when it will be the final assembly. This is just a development assembly and we lock the flange juts to center the flange’s parts, to see how the frame bars will be applied (not in the picture yet), and to sand out the internal transition in the horn.

BTW, there was some consideration of what type of flange to use. I wanted initially to have it done with metal angle but my carpenter convinced me that wood will be better. He did not use 2x4 for flange but face-to-face plywood. He fell that this connection will be not only stronger but even air-tight. My horn will only one disassembleable join – between the first and second sections. The join beaten the sections 5 and 6 will be permanently sealed by 5’ screws and glue.

I think today the main frame for the left channels will be done. Another day or two will take to beef it up and to put the secondary frames and I hope that sometimes during this weekend I will be able to mount a driver into the whole horn. This will be very important as I will be able to measure how low the Fs of the lorded driver will drop and from that I will be able to give the approximate demotions of the back chamber. Hey, I will be able even to hear how this thing sounds in the basement…

Can’s wait…
The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 177
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 196
Post ID: 14331
Reply to: 14328
Access to the bolts
fiogf49gjkf0d
Also, I believe that you will need future access to the horns (once installed) to tighten the nuts (after time) because the wood will compress, the horn structure will loosen up.
08-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,128
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 197
Post ID: 14339
Reply to: 14322
The first test is comming today.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well. It will be tonight – I will be trying to drive through the horn signal and to see how it will drop main resonate frequency. This will give the idea of the back chamber size. The 5 and 6 sections are not glued yet – it will be gone upstairs, otherwise we will not be able to bring the horn up from the basement.  I decided to load the horn with sand upstairs as well – it is too heavy to lift it up - I would need 4 people to bring sections upstairs otherwise. The middle section has faming only atop. There is no framing on the sides so far – will do this weekend….

Midbass_progress.JPG

Midbass_progress.JPG

Midbass_progress.JPG

Midbass_progress.JPG

Midbass_progress.JPG

Midbass_progress.JPG

Midbass_progress.JPG

Midbass_progress.JPG

Midbass_progress.JPG

Midbass_progress.JPG

Midbass_progress.JPG

Midbass_progress.JPG

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 177
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 198
Post ID: 14340
Reply to: 14339
Sound impressions?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Am I the only one here that's super exited about these new horns? So how do they sound -- you promised to tell us ^^

Be objective and truthful now Smile
08-27-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,128
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 199
Post ID: 14341
Reply to: 14339
Some data, impressions and me.
fiogf49gjkf0d
A friend stopped by tonight when I was test-listening my midbass horn. He got freaked out from the size of the thing. I played for him some Gerhard Oppelt’s organ recordings. He told me that I am crazy, like I do not know it myself. Anyhow, he made a picture of me and the horn and ran away. Here me and my new baby.

Midbass_progress_70.JPG

I did measure the loaded Vitavox 14/40 - it has two resonance 24.5Hz and 68.7Hz, it is a good drop from 50hz in open air. The 24.5Hz was semi-expected but the 68.7Hz made me to puzzle. I all to Bruce Edgar and he explained to me that it is normal for long hyperbolics and I shall wary only about the lower one. I did not have the double resonance with shorter fast opening horns. Anyhow, now the key is to find the right size of the back chamber to drive the resonance to my reference 42Hz. I have made a test sarcophagus and tomorrow will try it out. I think it will be a very small box, right behind the end of the driver, even perhaps smaller. I will make the picture tomorrow and publish the data with the final found volume/dimension.

The right question would be how does it sound? I would say good and bad.  Sonically it is not the sound that I like it it has no right pitch definition; it has lot of LF noise and a lot of other things that I would like to have. It however sits in basement room pointed to a wall, has no filter, no back chamber, no glued horns, driven from a table radio.  I am sure it will be a lot of better. In a good side it was stunning density of sound and it has gain and john EQ MUCH more than I expected. This thin has HUGE gain I mean stupendous gain. I think that it in vicinity of 12dB -14dB, sure the room added some but it is very certain that we are not in the 6bB of my typical fast opining upper frequency horns.

I was trying to extrapolate how the horn will behave upstairs. The gain of the thing truly astonished me. Even with Fs of 20Hz lower what it has to be it filed my 1750 sq feet basement with huge bass and what it important that the driver practically not moving. With back chamber it bell be even less and this is super important. I played music as lowed and I was able to handle and the driver was moving out no more than 1mm-2mm – stunning! So, the gain and EQ is totally out there. There is one thing that I hope will work upstate to me benefit. The 43Hz has wavelength 27 feet. This is approximately the distance of the midbass horn mouth to the opposite wall. So it I will be lucky then I will dive in-phase return from opposite wall that might give me an extra boost in… 42Hz. It is hard to predict will see…

The Cat
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-28-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 177
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 200
Post ID: 14342
Reply to: 14341
While we are all waiting for the final sound check.
fiogf49gjkf0d
What is that round yellow thing in the right corner of the picture? A driver of some sort?
Page 10 of 23 (456 items) Select Pages:  « First ... « 8 9 10 11 12 » ... Last »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  45Hz Bass Horn..  Can We Ever be Saved From Ourselves?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     23  314583  09-19-2006
  »  New  8" Goto Woofer for 60Hz Horn..  It's not a Goto 8in driver...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  87166  11-03-2008
  »  New  The Macondo’s Upper Bass Channel: what is next?..  Görlich again...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     30  289642  10-28-2007
  »  New  Jessie Dazzle Project..  Will this better to be auditable?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     172  1558583  08-03-2007
  »  New  Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..  Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     478  2913633  03-28-2010
  »  New  Problems with horns: upper bass ..  Must it be about loading?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     109  1167256  03-25-2005
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  2137802  07-26-2009
  »  New  Macondo’s lowest channel...  What truly are you tryin to accomplish?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     150  1393008  09-15-2010
  »  New  Practical Guide for Back Chambers Tuning...  Back chamber’s cost-benefit....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  75637  10-21-2006
  »  New  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ..  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  18022  10-08-2010
  »  New  Midbass impedance bumps -- why and what to do?..  You need to stop deceive yourself....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     18  193377  10-21-2010
  »  New  Mystery of bass horn calibration: Radiating Surface Dee..  Mystery of bass horn calibration: Radiating Surface Dee...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  17225  02-03-2011
  »  New  Impulse response, short notes and midbass horns...  A possible solution to better impulse?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  127832  06-13-2011
  »  New  My new “New” listening room, 2024..  That is not enough efforts in this direction....  Audio Discussions  Forum     31  16998  05-08-2024
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