jessie.dazzle wrote:

I completely agree, and will use the driver that sounds best with a 40Hz exponential horn. I have both versions of this driver, and have listened to them both in an A/B situation, out of the horn; I remember noting the main difference was in dB (output level)

It shall be 3 db different between them if one of them 8R and another 16R (OK, 15R but let it call 16R for the sake of convenience.) The twice higher impedance will load the out tube of your ML2 twice lighter and you will lose 3 dB. Many of SET, including the ML2 have multiple taps for different load. Thos taps have 3dB spread and you might use them to compensate the loosing of 3dB.

My view on this is different and I do not care about the dB gain or loosing, not about power but rather about to get desirable harmonic loading. Move from 8R driver to 16R driver will idle the tube more and will make the sound of the driver different. In case of your Lamm ML2 it might be less critical as ML2 uses global negative feedback and has relatively low output impedance. Still I remember it was very auditable when I was experimenting with Fane Studio 8 of 8R and 16R. I had both and most of those drivers come as 8R. I remember the custom party I ordered from Fane was 16R version. With Milq, as it use no feedback, the sonic different between 16R and 8R is more noticeable.

jessie.dazzle wrote:

I might be totally wrong, but I just assumed that Vitavox's decision to specify a lower impedence voice coil for horn-loaded applications was related the additional load placed on the driver once mated to a horn, resulting in an increase in impedence as seen by the amplifier (???).

It is hard to judge. To know it we need to know what the throat reactance was in the original Vitavox horns. I do not have even knowledge what was the throat size in Vitavox horns bass horns. When I had access to the System 191 I did not care about it but now I have no accessable System 191 to check it out and to measure the performance of bass driver in it. I never heard or seen the Vitavox bass bins.

Romy the Cat wrote:

The 6moon has posted an article about the Living Voice: http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/livingvoice2/olympian.html http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/livingvoice2/olympian_2.html http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/livingvoice2/olympian_3.html I did not read it; I will what I have time and will comment upon it. In fact I am very much looking forward to see what Kevin was trying to do in there.

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/view_topic.php?id=44706&forum_id=1

It was not a “debate” but the usual crap that the spineless hi-fi people do – commenting how “nice” everything was and promising to suck each other’s proverbial audio dick in future. Right among the stupid saliva drooling and empty-brain comments there was truly purl from Srajan Ebaen

Srajan Ebaen wrote:

Certain posters have made erroneous assumptions about the nature of my article. It was not paid for. In fact, in 8 years of operation, we have never published a paid-for article. The only 'paid-for' aspect of any industry feature like a show report or factory tour could be a reimbursement of my travel expenses.  In this case, the Scotts were in Switzerland on business so we could meet on my home turf. No expenses on my part were incurred, no reimbursement was necessary. Those who continue to label this article an advertorial should do so acknowledging this simple fact. Otherwise I would sure like to know just how much money I was paid and into which account it was wired as they must clearly know more than I do.

I am not sure if the Srajan’s is 13 years old of he feel that that his target readers are 13 years old, the last might be true BTW. It is very funny that Srajan in what. Srajan does not do it to advance the interest of sound reproduction but ONLY and exclusively as the product-centric advertising.  The facts that he is trying to deny his gratification is just supports my long accusation that he has passed the point where a woman can differentiate is she is a prostitute or if she is a whore.  Prostitution is a fine human engagement where money, commodity of other forms of gratifications is critical motivations for activity. Prostitution is an exchange of services and no one sane would consider that to be first class prostitute require less experience, knowledge or artistry then to be PHD in chemistry, to me master of engineering or to a good theatrical actor. We all prostitute, or exchange out experiences on the market of services. Myself, being in consulting fields for years, I never hesitate to call myself a prostitute. The label of “Prostitution” has a negative stigma in the society but I do not support the stupid stigma.

Then there are whores – the people who engage in activity without monetary reward, without interest for the activity, without sense of self-gratification, without a desire to serve the idea of the activity. Thos people are driven by the Pavlovian theory on nervous activity and they experience that they are on the even keel only when they whore themselves again and again. It is how many cheap sales-people who work in hi-fi store told me that if the customers do not lisle good music then the do not sell them audio. I wonder: for which what level of idiocy those assurances are designed for?

Sure, Srajan, has his gratifications to publish the article about Living Voice. They might not be in the currencies that change the hands (even through the Living Voice add “suddenly” appeared in the 6moon site). There are many other forms gratifications. Srajan knows it, Srajan works very hard to advance them and Srajan is just ether to fucking stupid ether he is too deep involved into being a whore to deny the fact of other gratifications.

Sure, no one lose anything that Living Voice published via 6moon an article about their new speaker. However, reading the Srajan’s stupid built up of cheap enthusiasm around the Vox Olympian and around  theVitavox and then reading Srajan’s statements that he is a Mother Teresa of Audio  is sound to me just too stupid.

Six Moons has published a second installment about the Living Voice loudspeakers. It was announced a six month back or so, and to say honestly I did go the last week a few times to see if the article was posted. Living Voice Vox Olympian uses the MF and LF drivers as I use foe my loudspeakers, so I naturally was curios is anything will be expressed that would expend my views.

http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/roadtourlivingvoice/1.html

The article is a typical Srajan Ebaen drooling about the whale’s foreskin  but he also probably read this site and he took my advise to shut up make pictures and let other people to talk. So, the second part of the article is more interesting, even though if I was administer the interview I would ask different questions. Anyhow, no commentaries from me  at this point and not too much new info from Living Voice. Still, it is worth to read.

Well, I guess I have to pass some observations about the new Living Voice Vox Olympian.

I did not listen them, did not talk to the people who behind the Living Voice and all that I know about them are the Six Moans articles and a few threads in British internet forums. Not a lot but I think at this point I have a feeling what Living Voice was trying to, so I would express some remarks about how I feel.

First is what I like. The way how the Living Voice talk about their midbass modules I found is very interesting and stimulating. I initially did not that module as I thought that they were the lowest channel of the speaker. The 6Moans article indicates that Vox Olympian has a deducted lower bass section, so Living Voice do not push the midbass to insanely low levels (and most of stupid people do). That is very good, but what it even better is a sensibility that Living Voice demonstrate with this midbass enclosure. Honesty I do not lot like the midbass “horn” that Living Voice use but it is not a horn but some kind of loaded resonate chamber. With sensible use of the “Resonance Oops” it is possible to get stunning midbass from 151 drivers if the midbass properly inhaled. It is possible that Living Voice did it, even though their midbass location is physically bound with the location of the main speaker – a main problem with such a design if multi-amping is not used.

I do like that that offer custom options for lower bass and that use Vitavox 15” and MF. I still do not get why they use this big “nose tweeter”, I find it ridicules, but whatever makes them pappy.

Now, what I do not like. I do not like that they made the speaker expressive.  Let me to explain what I mean. They ask a bit under $300,000 for a pair and it shell not be my business how much they want for it as I am talking about the loudspeaker as a sonic impacting design ideas not as a product. However, in the case of Vox Olympian the cost was a design decision. It is apparent that there is a huge amount of efforts (or at least Living Voice is true to convince that the efforts are huge – that why they engaged Srajan to blob about it) they that invest into the speakers that have absolutely not sonic impact but let Living Voice to drive the price tag up and to target the higher price range clientele.  I have a guy down the street who washes cars. He charges $3K per car. Doe his wash make a car to drive better or just serve the customer ego that he is a member of $3K per wash club? From a perspective as I can see it the super high price is “bad for sound” tendency. First of all the clientele of people who pay $300,000 per speaker generally do not have interesting sound. The more Interesting Sound is collection of person efforts, not the efforts of better components. The people who pay $300,000 per speaker generally have tendency to not work on own Sound.  So, charging $300,000 per speaker Living Voice remove themselves from the circulation of normal criticism and the Vox Olympian won’t; be accessible by the people who are able to critical perception.

The way how Vox Olympian will be released is also does not make me happy. The boat show? Come on, the boat shows recruit the long-legged and tight-ass girls in bikini to appeal to certain mind frame. Does Living Voice feel comfortable to be a strip-bitch at somebody else trade show? It reminds me a prostitute that I knew in my childhood who insisted her clients to hear her poetry before performing the service.

Anyhow, let see at this $300,000 again. The 50-60% is the dealer mark up. The 10-15% is distribution mark up. From the $100K that are left probably a half spend for big name wood maker, exotic woods and wiener and custom housing. Add to this 10-15% of supporting cost (damaging during shipment etc…) So, where we end up? I think the cost of the speaker to make by market price today would be $10K-$15K. That is to make the speaker just to assure default sound, not the exotic finisher and super expensive housing. Saying all of it we need to understand that Living Voice need to compete with own refection in the minds of audio-idiots. A few years ago a friend of mine was selling a loudspeaker line that cost $4K and no one paid attention on it. Then he change the price for $26K, just increased the piece and nothing else. The speakers after this were flying out if his warehouse. Also, the cost of the part themselves. I come from the assessment of the Vitavox MF and bass driver as $2K per pair – the today’s eBay price.  There are plenty of driver today that cost $15K-$20K. So, if I feel that S2 is better then shall the S2 in this case cost $25-$30K?

They all not easy questions and there is no answer to them. I think the cost of the speaker shall derive only from the sophistication of sound that the speaker produces. What Living Voice produce is not know now and if they will keep selling them for $300k installed in private boats then it will hardly be known.

jessie.dazzle wrote:

What I question: A rectangular mid-range horn... Why?

jessie.dazzle wrote:

At what frequency range does the transition from the AK151 to the S2 take place? An S2 can be very successfully run down to 400Hz, but not with such a small horn. Instead, they're likely running the S2 as low as possible, limited by the horn, and running the AK151 up quite high. The AK151 is sitting in an enclosure that relies on a zig-zag path for EQ, which might work for mid-bass, but this combination is likely also being asked to produce quite a lot of mid-range; remember, the AK151 is a 15" driver.

jessie.dazzle wrote:

In any case, I'm very pleased to see this project come to fruition, and until I hear otherwise, I'll believe that the Vox Olympain sounds absolutely fantastic. I'd love to hear it.

Paul S wrote:

For me, the gratuitous mention of "name" yachts in the early part of the blurb is such an obvious Pimp Job that I literally could not get past it on my first try.  And I have to disagree about the "design', and the "execution", as well, which is so obviously "looks-trumps-phony-function" that it is hardly worth arguing the point. If these guys have really done their Sonic homework, there is no way to tell it from anything they say or show in their opening salvo.  So, clearly, that is not what they are "about", in the first place.  This means, if nothing else, that anything they do right in terms of Sound is probably an accident, since Sound is clearly not the first thing they want to talk to "prospective customers" about. Sorry, but so far this is just another Robb Report blurb aimed at "The Man Who Can Afford and Must Own the Best". Not that I "blame" them, mind you; but, c'mon, guys...

Paul, yes and now. Yes, that the yachts was brewed with all typical Pimpy techniques. I swear that when Srajan begun butter up readers with glory of yachts I immediately thought that he shell put the Kristina’s bar stools into the game. That felt so in Ebaen alley that it was superbly predictable. Also, “yes” to the fact that that Living Voice signed off all this crap and permitted it to publish. Another, “yes” is to the fact the Living Voice was making commends like “we do not review out speakers” …. that was published in a very typical Ebaen’s review. This remind me this asshole from Magico, I do not remember his name, the Israeli one. Back in beginning of 2000s he was giving interviews and blaring the he is it very much anti-industry person and at the same time we was driving from dealer to dealing,  building up sale network, recruited reviewers and develop distribution channels.

There is also some things that are “no” in your post. We have no idea how all of this Robb Report cheapness translate to sound.  I have no idea if their sound is interesting or nit and accidental or not. The parley according to which they chose to sell their speakers is not necessary relate to sound. You need to understand that $300K speaker are not made by to sound superb and then to solicit people to buy them because the sound superb. Those types of the products are made with objective to cash out the established target customers. It is the same how Lamm was doing his ML3. He has a few customers who agreed to buy his new 35W SET amp, possibly even prepaid as I with with L2. So, why Lamm in this case shall not cash out a few hundred thousands?  That is his job and anyone would do the same. The very similar situation I am sure with Living Voice. I am sure they have a few customers who will buy their speaker for direct sale price (probably 50K-80K). This assurance that they can disperse a few speakers make people to make a first production run. I am very sure that right after this boar show the speaker goes to one of the boats… and why not.

Any person who become from an individual who just have interest in subject of sound reproduction to an individual who intend to make money on this love pass some kind of invisible threshold that subconsciously affects outlook . Living Voice for 5 years experimented with thir speaker – that was fine and that what I am interested in the Living Voice experience. Now they become a professional company and will be doing all necessary things to make money and capitalize profit.  Where the sound will go from there? I do not know….

hifiapart wrote:

Being critical is easy, making things move not so easy.....and yes that entails exposure and conflicting views.

Romy the Cat wrote:

hifiapart wrote: Being critical is easy, making things move not so easy.....and yes that entails exposure and conflicting views. Unfortunately 6monns does not “exposure conflicting views” – they expose cheap views, I am pretty sure that you know the difference.

Hifiapart,

I understand what you are saying but I do not share your feelings. We came from different perspectives and have very different takes about what “our hobby(ies)” is (are). 

You apparently feel that “audio hobby” is about acquiring, evaluating, advancing and reconciling audio equipment. From your perspective manufactures create “events” that need to be exposed and in such case the 6moon-level of journalism you might find a beneficial and informative.

I feel very different and for me any change or events if audio is absolutely meaningless if it does not imply advancement in Sound or in understanding of dealing with Sound. The problem that 6moon does not hold intellectual or cultural standing in Sound reproduction and not able not understand for own sake what constitute interest in audio and what is just an audio surrogate. In a way 6moon is a victim of self-stupid audio journalism – the situation what the idiocy of on jowhorernalism terminally affected own reference points.  I was told plenty of the stories from many manufactures who told me that when they pitched to 6moon anything from brilliancy to idiocy the 6moon-boy was not able to differentiate what it was and cared only about external appearance the fact wrapper but not about essence of the information. The mockery “Srajan Ebaen and Juicy-Cooking Audio.” 

http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=4951

…was written exactly about it.

If you, Hifiapart, still do not understand my angle than I would give you a simplified association. Pretend that you are Srajan Ebaen and you visit me. I tell you that I invented a perpetual motion engine and juts stepped on a cockroach and squashed it. You, being Srajan Ebaen, are not able to equate appropriately those two events in a scale of reference points – in your mind they are identical and you do your “exposing the facts to world” with identical attention to perpetual motion engine and to dead cockroach. Sorry, Hifiapart, as an inventor of perpetual motion engine I would feel that the media person was an idiot and as a reader I would feel the same. This is exactly how I feel about 6moon and BTW I think Srajan do understand his limitations and I think that in a scale of “big perspective” he would agree with my view about him. However, what he might do? Pimping for audio industry is the only tradable commodity he has…