Romy the Cat wrote:

Actually if that horn would not be bending atop, go for another couple feet vertically, consequentially has a smaller throat and of course has a strong back chamber then it would be a very good J-horn (presumably that the walls and joints are not resonating)

FWIW, I've done the cone doping myself, and my first reaction to doping paper cones is suspicion.  Why does it "need" this, and how/why will it really "help"?  But I injected this example only to set it apart from the [Altec] horn doping, relative mass versus X, as I think this still relates to the idea/questions that initiated this thread.

What still remains unclear to me is how to predict/control what I hear as a more-or-less "self-induced" "ringing" in horns that appear to my eyes alike to the bronze example in the picture.  I have also seen/heard chrome-plated horns similar to the bronze example, and they were terrifying.  I don't "see" this in Romy's wide-throated, stumpy, band-limited wooden horns because these are pretty new to me and so do not "ring my bell", as it were, and they also "make sense" to me based on my own experience.  Why do I "see" that the bronze horn will "ring", and/or what am I missing with respect to curves vs. FR vs. throat vs. length in this case that somehow makes this particular bronze "wide-range" horn free of the ringing my experience "tells" me I would hear?  I don't expect a primer in horn design, just assurances that I'm off base would be fine, and I'll do my own homework from there.

Best regards,
Paul S

As usually I tend to see a generalization and patters. The very same is the case of that Brazilian installation with those Japanese hors. However, I would like to take it even further then just the very questionable design decisions in that upperbass horn. What I would like to point out that the educational values of the “questionable design decisions” in this given case were completely devaluated by the owner of the system and the owner’s reference points. Let me to explain, however, before the explanations I need to make another remark in order do not be attacked by the never-sleeping fools who case about the ethnics-of-others more then about own ethnic.

It always puzzled me how fools recognize a constrictive criticism about somebody playback or somebody reference points as a personal attack on somebody.  I have written about is many times and always suggested that a person’s hyper-sensitivity to audio critique as a clear indicator of audio-Moronity. I do not want to go over it here, so read the thread:

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=2546

Returning back to the explanations.

Well, I do not think thatBrazilian guy relay knows what is doing on with his horn and I completely discard his comments bout the sound of his installation.. From my point of view the direction he goes is absolutely faulty (I intentionally did no name him he started some kind of audio company). What this guy does, and the direction from which he approaches speakers is absolutely opposite (from my point of view) to the one that brings success in Sound.  The Brazilian guy feel that sound should be shaped by after-fact conditioning and I religiously against this approach.

So, the mistakes that were made in this installation are purely the responsibly of its Japanese designer but why the owner of this system can not realize that his installation underperforms (and I’m saying without listening the system)? Because the audio methods that Brazilian guy uses as his “tools” and his coordinate systems are very restricted in context of Respect to Sound. His coordinate system only deals with the Algorithmically Reflections of Sound instead the Sound itself.

Yes, 20 years ago the Yamaha DX7 was perfectly capable to imitate the sound of whole symphonic orchestra, so what? The quality of that imitation was very good only in context of digital syntezators progress but for any peoples who are familiar with the nature of real Sound it was not serious. So, how a person who does not recognize the notion of driver-centricity in acoustic systems can be a tool for people to lean how his J-horn might sound?  How valuable would be a position of  person who essentially uses sound of drivers and horns with no more respect then a micro-voltage generated inside of that Yamaha DX7 keyboard?

Sure it is very said that a person who spent a lot of money and efforts for this J-horns can’t contribute to the mass of composite knowledge about hors generally. But what make him different from most of others audio-yahoos? Sure, people would look at the pictures of the 8-bit driven horns with out of phase transducers above and feel that that was how horns should be. Nothing could be further from truth and the blindness (or with of blindness) of the peoples similar to the Brazilian guy make the global knowledge about horns so primitive.

As Michael Corleone said: “It's not personal. . . It's strictly business"…

Merlin wrote:

Regarding constructive criticism, is there any chance of you explaining why you feel the installation is mortally compromised Romy? In order to be constructive, an explanation is required otherwise it simply qualifies as childish insults in my book.

Merlin, I was under a strong impression that the “mortal compromise” 9as you call it) in this J-horn were already mentioned with this thread. Do you want me and others to write it for you again juts because you refuse to spend more efforts then juts scan tittles and looking at the pictures? Sorry, it is not the way how it works…

Merlin wrote:

Looking at a picture of the Macondo, it is possible to see huge areas where the design is most likely horribly compromised but I don't doubt that subjectively they sound delightful. What is the difference here?

… and why do you feel that Macondo is off the limit for any criticism (in a separate thread)? What, however, I refuse is when people use phrases “see huge areas” and “design is most likely horribly compromised” in the same sentence. If one “see” it then there is no “most likely”.  So, your question “What is the difference?” it is something that you need to answer for yourself.

Paul S wrote:

Some of those Altec horns were textbook examples of both types of bell-like resonance, where the body of the horn itself resonated and certain bell-like artifacts were created/amplified by/in the horns' mouths.

Romy the Cat wrote:

<P>Merlin, I was under a strong impression that the “mortal compromise” 9as you call it) in this J-horn were already mentioned with this thread. </P> The caT

wrote:

...The most obvious problem is with the Bass drivers, which are left to radiate both to the front (via the horns) as well as to the rear... which in this case really means to the front!... The rear of the drivers are aimed upward at a 45° angle where the sound would bounce off the ceiling, then continue at 45° right down to the listening point, arriving I would guess somewhat late to the party. This is not something that can be fixed with a DSP (the output from the rear of the cone being physically linked to what comes off the front of the cone).  ….. Too keep for this horn (it is aluminum-made) without back chamber is so funny that … it become even not funny. The only way to make 60Hz horn so short is open up the throat to full throttle, most likely the full 15” as the size of that 515G driver. If this guy has such a large throat then this horn has very little gain. Let presume that it does +3dB at its lover at its lover knee. Then, (with the back chamber wide opened and positioned where it is) the guy has upperbass MF arrays of two sources, with 3dB between them, reserved polarity and with time discrepancy that could not be addressed at digital domain.

Were the quotes above no enough for anyone who is familiar with the subject? It is funny but you sound very similar to the Tannoys guy who flashed at this site with his juvenile aptitude.  Well, where I do agree with you Merlin, is that “we cannot discuss the … results” as I do not see any effort on your part to do so. A person who wants looks for opportunity, the person who does not want looks for reasons; I am not quite sure what you are looking. Please do not reply if you post will not be related to the Brazilin horn. It was the last time I replied to you when you said nothing about the subject of the thread.

Romy the Cat wrote:

Were the quotes above no enough for anyone who is familiar with the subject? Rgs, Romy

Merlin wrote:

Absolutely inadequate for desiphering the subjective sound quality yes - all we can deduce is that the system has a maximum sensitivity of 98db/w at best, and quite possibly less. As do many fine loudspeaker systems. All loudspeaker systems are compromises. Placing the 515G in that manner at least reduces the effect of it's backwave causing a deep phase cancellation from the rear wall reflection. As I say - compromises - none neccessarily more moronic than the next. I'd like to see the system designer provide some explanation as to his design choices - that would give this thread a sense of direction it sadly lacks at the moment. The only thing I would say is that is it not likely that the positioning of the 515 will have a long term effect on the suspension and result in sag?

Yes, I agree that if system designer provide some explanation as to his design choices it would be more valuable observation but he is Japanese with all sonic negative consequences (in fact the open-bass-horn would be very typical for the "Japanese Sound").  Also, I insist that is the level at which a playback is being used by the system owner is an indication of the system accomplishment. So, looking at that the Brazilian guy does, his overriding everything with his favorite digital toys, without any senses of any regards to Sound....  to me it is a very objective indication of what is going on there.

drdna wrote:

It is important to remember that the Subjective musical result is the goal, but this does not mean to disregard all objective data.  When one sees something as ridiculous as the Brazilian horn, you kind of have to assume objectively it is going to be bad-sounding unless proven otherwise.  Adrian

Merlin wrote:

I took the 98db/w from the tweeter which will not be higher sensitivity in that implementation. If the other units are higher than that, then yes it is a moronic system!

There is nothing moronic in that playback in the subject of tweeter. Ironically you have difficulties to acknowledge the obviously faulty moments in that installation but then you challenge other, perfectly lucid aspects, and because of it you are calling the system “moronic”. This all leads me to wonder if you have any personal experiences or any subject references to the subjects we discuss.  I know that you come from Tannoy forums and perhaps you need some time to break-in is no BS environment. Anyhow, it would be a homework for you: try to educate yourself why in that Brazilian installation the 98db in tweeter (as you say so) would not be a problems.