guy sergeant wrote:

Not yet. I'll give him a call & put details of the reply here.

Romy wrote :

"Did Mike consider making the driver better or he just plans to replicate what Vitavox did 50 years ago?"

Here is a thought :

While I am over all very pleased with the results I am able to get from the original S2s, Romy once made a comment that has caused me to question the design of the rear cover (he was considering damping the inner surface with fabric): Could there be an advantage in making the inner surface of this cover not so flat, not so smooth, and not so reflective?

It would be interesting to cast a new experimental rear cover having the same volume, but a less reflective shape... not flat, possibly domed, and possibly with an inner texture similar to the crystal lining of a geode (but scaled down). This would be a fairly simple operation for me, and one day I will try it.

In the mean time, it could be something to consider in the design of a new S2.

jd*

guy sergeant wrote:

He is in a difficult position. Does he make a the driver using the tooling/knowledge/supplier information he has acquired from Vitavox(and change nothing)? This would be actually be a Vitavox S2 (not a repro) or does he try to make a better new version. The people in the far east who are interested in and use these would probably only want something made exactly as per the original one. If I were in his shoes, this is what I'd do. Later one could look at doing a modified 'improved' version. I'm not sure that given the investment involved, it would be wise to make something new at this point.

I did not detect that Mike was difficult position. In those few conversations that I had with him he was quite rational and I did not detect any difficulties, as least in the limited scope of the subjects that we had under discussion.

Anyhow, Guy, I very much disagree with your expressed. I do not know if it is Mike’s attitude or your own views but regardless of whose it is I found it faulty. No mater what Mike do the new production of Vitavox S2 will NOT be the same drives as they use to be 50 years back. It is impossible to make it the same, regardless how much someone would like to convince themselves… not to mention: WHY SHOULD IT BE THE SAME? Is the old production of Vitavox S2 some kind of absolute reference that did better Sound? Of course not!!!! Furthermore, I can bring you examples of dozens and dozens companies and products where “reportedly” the same people, with the “reportedly” the same machinery and “reportedly” the same suppliers tried to reinstate former products and the products NEVER were the same. So, I have no doubts that the new production of S2 will sound different then the 50-years production – there is nothing wrong with it.

Still, even shaping the subject as “new production vs. the old production” does not sound intelligent for me. One of the reasons is because the old production drivers all sounded different anyhow…

So, to think - if the new Mike’s production will be repro or not repro is unnecessary. Whatever it will be it will be new drivers. If is will be inspired by the Vitavox S2 blueprint then it is fine but it itself said absolutely nothing about the Sound of those drivers. The originals Vitavox people fifty years ago, very much similar to Mike today are clueless regardless “where sound come from in drivers” and it is perfectly fine that the old guys and Mike do whatever they do just trying to get more “interesting” version of Sound…

Anyhow, it would be sad if Mike buys into the same believe regarding of the S2 driver as you Guy apparently do. Guy, you are and industry participant and your mind works in a certain industry-precompiled format, the format that I religiously reject. Thinking about the new production of the S2 driver you do not think in term of what actions might be take in order to get better Sound out of this driver but rather in term: what kind BS marketing statements the bogus people at far east would like to heard about this drivers in order to find it more attractive to buy. Sure, you would like to pitch to them the concept of the “the original one”? But what does it mean “the original one”? It is a reference to Sound or to the stupid brand cult? I hope Mike would not buy into the Label Drooling and go for the actual sonic results instead of the breeding the stupid marketing crap… the crap that unfortunately is the only thing that makes revenue in audio. Well, whatever, will see…

BTW, when you will be talking to Mike then to the questions for my former post add a question if Mile will be changing (did I say improving?) the shape of the bolt the attaches the phase plug to the center-poll.

guy sergeant wrote:

I think it would be quite difficult for anyone to set up any sort of production of drive units and not become an 'industry' participant. It's quite remarkable that you manage to use a turntable, arms, cartridges, CD Player, Tuner, pre-amp and cables all produced by industry participants. I sometimes wonder how you can live with the shame of it.

Yep, I sometime wonder as well how much better all those crap of mine would be is the companies who made that all were not driver by the blind profit maximization and marginal revenue but by the interests of Sonic results…

guy sergeant wrote:

I think it would also be wise at first to at least make sure one could consistently make a driver that performed to the same level as an S2 before pushing on and trying to refine or improve the design further.

Frankly speaking I do not see it. It does not sound like Mike has interests (I might be wrong) for “abstractedly better MF driver”. He rather as a person who owns Vitavox name and Vitavox products probably jut look forward to cash in his ownership. To do so he does not need to do anything at the “same level” or to “refine or improve the design further”. All that he need to do is to produce ANYTHIG with a Vitavox label on it and deploy a few marketing cretins who would print a few glorious articles celebrating the damn vintage kitsch. As you called them the “far easterners” with their moronic catholic taste will swallow everything… well, I do not think that my cynicism on the subject is anything new to you but it is what it is. Therefore I think that if Mike would not go initially for better Vitavox S2 drivers then he most likely will not go for any “good driver” at all. BTW, I do not consider the originals Vitavox S2 as a “good” driver. It might be more interesting (accidentals!!!) then some another but it is far form being as good as it could be.

Romy the Cat wrote:

guy sergeant wrote: I think it would be quite difficult for anyone to set up any sort of production of drive units and not become an 'industry' participant. It's quite remarkable that you manage to use a turntable, arms, cartridges, CD Player, Tuner, pre-amp and cables all produced by industry participants. I sometimes wonder how you can live with the shame of it. Yep, I sometime wonder as well how much better all those crap of mine would be is the companies who made that all were not driver by the blind profit maximization and marginal revenue but by the interests of Sonic results…

guy sergeant wrote:

You live in a fantasy world Romy. Not one of those items could have evolved into the products you now use without the company responsible being able to develop the technology & materials to allow it to happen. They wouldn't even exist. That sort of development costs money and it has to be earnt somehow. Even your power amplifiers and loudspeakers have evolved from the commercial activities of companies like Lamm, Vitavox, Fane, and probably Avant Gard. Your new tweeters wouldn't have happened unless RAAL had a business that allowed him the resources to develop them. You might regard manufacture and commerce with disdain but if it weren't for them you'd be walking everywhere or perhaps riding in a cart pulled by a horse. Might not be a bad thing!

I live in the world in which I believe. The difference between my world and the world of any typical person with awareness screwed but the industry narrow-mindedness is that I do not recognize a messianic role of products and believe that products (as much as any companies) are in fact irrelevant. It is you who believes (or fell gainful to believe) that if a company would not exist then would not be a Results but I see the things reversely. I know where my “fantasies” lead me and I see into witch crap the product-centric vision got turned into. Buy the last TAS for instance and read the CES report: hundreds companies/products and no single author-son-of-a-bitch is able to say anything about Sound but only to shovel the stupid companies/products like a deck of playing cards….

coops wrote:

If you are correct there should me a large gap in the market for any company that really cares about sound. Returning to the topic of the thread, have you noticed wide discrepancies in the 'sound' of S2 drivers even between drivers manufactured within a short period of each other? I can understand how the driver specs may have changed over time and how this would affect the sound, correct me if I am wrong but weren't S2's primarily made for large cinema/pa applications.

BTW, it would be nice if Mike, being the today Vitavox inherent, would also tell some history of Vitavox, not that it is important but it would be educational. Pretty much all that I know about them is form the British guy who collects the PA history:

http://www.historyofpa.co.uk/pages/speakers.htm

as far as I underrated Vitavox did not come with own designs but licensed the Klipschorn ideas arming them with own drivers… I have seen some years ago a lit of the Vitavox customers. I do not think that list say anywhere meaningful but it had some (not a lot) big names. Also, the list was quite small I have to note. So, I think if Mike wiling to make some dough in his Vitavox then he need (unfortunately) start form creating and blowing up some “Vitavox steam”, perhaps a glossy Vitavox heritage site what the “history drovers” could address their frustrations… I remember the Morons™ called Vitavox as “British Western Eclectic”… so, why Mike would not make the morons to pay for it?

coops wrote:

Romy I read your post listing some aspects of the Vitavox drivers Mike might take a look at and I know you give acoustic reproduction a lot of thought, have you envisaged the 'perfect ' driver, has the Vitavox enough 'accidentally good' qualities that something really magnificent could be made from it?

Coops,

I do not know defiantly if Mike visit/read this site. I might presume that he does as this site is one of the very few islands where someone even mentions anything about Vitavox.

About my envision of a “perfect” driver… it is kind of complicated.

I like what S2 does in comparing to some other drivers, particularly what S2 is driven by overloaded plate. Would I consider the S2 as a “perfect driver”? Certainly not! I do clearly recognize some areas (design and sound) that I would like to improve in S2. However I’m not relay equipped to do it and frankly speaking I’m NOT in the business/interest to do it.

You see, with all simplicity of compression drivers to make own “perfect” driver is very complicated. Not because it complicated to do (as actions) but because it extremely complicated predict how those actions will manifest themselves in Sound. You never will be able to say anything… until you are done and no one knows where many attributes of Sound (the Absolute Tone for instance) will be coming from. Look for example what the Congent boys do: year after years they mingle with their MF driver, finding different minor ways to make it to sound better/different. I do not know where they are now in term of the Absolute Tone - they were quite far when I head them two years back…. but they are far not because they are lazy bustards but become no one has any ides where that mischievous Absolute Tone might come from… So, my view is that to pursuit for the 'perfect' driver should take a dedication and preoccupation that I personally am not wiling to invest. I would like someone else discover how to make a “perfect” driver and I juts will use it…

Well, with all my efforts that spend many people fail to realize that I very much against any sights of DIY audio foolishness and am very much not in the business of addressing the audio problems. I see myself more like a user with attitude then a person who had interest to create/invent the things… Therefore, I would prefer someone else do the 'perfect' driver. I do not feel that “when truth is discovered by someone else, it loses something of its attractiveness” I have other means to exercise my own ego….

Anyhow, I hope that a new Vitavox production will be ambitious enough to attacks the legion of contestants for a “perfect” MF driver. If I will have my hands on those new S2 drivers then I will give to them as much consideration as to anything else…