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02-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 15653
Reply to: 15653
A Moscow setup with Horns/Lowther
fiogf49gjkf0d

Here is an interesting setup. It is nowhere in Moscow Russia. I did not hear it but it does not mean that we can’t analyze what the authored was trying to accomplish.

Horns_Lowthe_ Setup_2.jpg

Horns_Lowthe_ Setup_1.jpg

It is 3-way installation. Bass looks like dual Goto driver in a J-horn with 35-40Hz mouth. The horn looks like too short for it rate. Also it is not know if the Goto drivers are tunable for this specific horn. From what I heard from Goto people they do not even understand the concept of driver resonance and none of Goto systems I read about even mention the Fs of Goto drivers. So, most the Morons just load off the shelf Goto drives into whatever they use and then feel that if they pay so much for drivers than it shall not sound like crap. In contrary I do know that this approach does lead to very unsophisticated bass.

The twitter is some kind Fostex, probably 900 or 9000, which is fine.

The mid range of course is the most interesting – it is 8” Lowther loaded into a short horn. So, basically it is a direct radiator. I am know to be not a big fan of Lowther but this Moscow guy is looks like trying to do something interesting. I think he has small room and listen in very nearfield position. I made this conclusion from the way how he alight the Tweeter to MF. If you paid attrition the tweeter sits on the curve that focuses very close to the speaker. It is hard to estimate from the picture but if the Fostex has the cone on the back then we are looking at ~8 feet. This says that the playback does not need to pump pressure for 1000 sq feet room and Lowther might be not overly horrible.

As I motion before Lowther might be very good in VERY limited bandwidth and with going too low. My estimate was that it might be 700-800Hz and room is not too large.  I do not know where the Moscow guy low passes his Lowther. If he goes lower then 700-800Hz then he might not listen complex music. If he does cross it there then the question how he can drive his bass horn so high? My estimate is that this type of bass horn is good for no higher than 400-500Hz. However, the Moscow guy uses his MF channels as phase plug for his bass horn, effectively extending the HF of his bass horn. This is elegant idea in my view.

Still, I think that it is a bit a half ass solution. The guy obviously have recourses, interest and desire to get the things right. To have the things done right he needs to put an extra upper bass channel above his bass mouth. He has an excellent space for it. If he introduce let say 200-800hz additional cannel then he would be able to use Lowther MUCH more sparingly at lower knee and will have MUCH better control over the room loading and now he is pretty much is a hostage of a chance.

BTW, pay attention to the wall finish – the exposed rock; this is a phenomenal room treatment.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-28-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
haralanov


Bulgaria
Posts 130
Joined on 05-20-2008

Post #: 2
Post ID: 15654
Reply to: 15653
About the widerange channel in that setup
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, the main driver in this acoustic system has nothing to do with the funny Lowthers. It is very high class field coil speaker unit made by Oleg Rullit. Take a look:

rullit1.jpg

rullit2.jpg

The owner of the system has tried the highest class of the Feastrex line of widerange drivers - D9eIII, but he prefers the Oleg Rullit's because it better renders musical intonations.
Here is a photo of the Feastrex driver in the same horn:

feastrex D9eIII.jpg






"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." -A.E.
02-28-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 15656
Reply to: 15654
Still, a complementary upper bass channel is missing.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 haralanov wrote:
Romy, the main driver in this acoustic system has nothing to do with the funny Lowthers. It is very high class field coil speaker unit made by Oleg Rullit. The owner of the system has tried the highest class of the Feastrex line of widerange drivers - D9eIII, but he prefers the Oleg Rullit's because it better renders musical intonations. Here is a photo of the Feastrex driver in the same horn.
Thanks, Haralanov for the information. I did not know it but in realty  it does not change anything as from pint of view system design, architecturally Lowthers, Feastrex, Feastrex and anything else 8” soft suspended direct radiators are in the very same camp. Oleg Rullit migh be “high class” but there was a lot of talk that Feastrex is head and shoulders above Lowthers. In reality it is not and although Feastrex has some advantages but it also same the same set of problems. I am not familiar with Oleg Rullit drivers, he does stimulating things on the pictures but it is very difficult to estimate what sonic consequences his efforts have. The majority of the people I have seen that use Rullit drivers are Morons in my estimation and I extend zero credibility to them. For instance the guy who made the horn for that Moscow setup, I know of him, is a very avidLowthers follower and he pitch for years to use Lowthers full range in back loaded horn and according to him there is no other way to “get sound”. as far I concern one single comment like this discredit person judgment.

I would not have any problem if the Moscow guy does use Lowthers. Lowther-like drivers might be very good if it used on very narrow band path and not going too low. It possible that Rullit’s diver can go 30Hz lower then Lowthers, so what, I still feel that a complementary upper bass channel is begging to be used in this system.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-28-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
haralanov


Bulgaria
Posts 130
Joined on 05-20-2008

Post #: 4
Post ID: 15658
Reply to: 15656
Further comments
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
I still feel that a complementary upper bass channel is begging to be used in this system.

Yes, Romy, the upperbass channel is absolute mandatory. My comments were only about the particular driver, nothing more than that. The is no way he could get good upper bass with 8" driver, not to mention with a driver having so wide leather surround. He needs at least 12" driver with harder and faster suspension in order to get the fundamentals right. The best solution would be to use 2 upper bass channels, arranged symmetrically below and above his main channel. Unfortunatelly his setup does not allow such configuration...
There are a lot of aspects in this system which I don't like. In my view, the tweeter/midrange integration is absolutely compromised. First of all, the tweeter is very far away from the acoustic center of the widerange channel. This could be translated as strongly unfocused sound, because the tizzing of the supertweeter will be completely isolated by the main sound. Not to mention that the tweeter has very different sound signature within context of the speed of dynamic gradations, dispersion patterns and tone... But the most disturbing thing of all is that the tweeter is placed above the widerange channel. It is going to "pull" (psyhoacoustically) the sound at its axis, making it to sound very tiny, and considerably lowering the size of the acoustic instruments. It would be much more appropriate if the tweeter was placed below the midrange horn, allowing the sound to be integrated on the midrange axis in a way that tweeter completely disappears as a sound source as if it is non existent. It is extremely important for any acoustic system that the sound must be "pulled" by the midrange channel (not by the HF channel) and this is the only way to get really proper sound, but this is also the most difficult thing of all...



"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." -A.E.
02-28-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 15659
Reply to: 15658
Lowther is in Africa is Lowther.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Haralanov, it had to say, I think it would be all depends how he use that MF driver. Do not forget that this MF driver, I still insist to call it Lowther has very extended HF. That is different type of HF that is coming from “cigarette filter paper”. It might be impressive for a typical “girl with banjo” but not for a complex dymick music with a lot of intermodulations. It is necessary to know where they cross the Lowther and how much Fostex tweeter hey use. It would be very different result if they cross it at 7.5K vs. 12K.

If I was owner of that system and if my objective were to use that Lowther driver then I would put an upper bass horn in use get rid that superfluous MF horn. The Rulit Lowther would be driver much more gently; the HF driver would be closer to MF center and the re-entry reflection to the got bass drive would be substantially minimized.

I do not know the town of this setup but generally Russians are a bit uptight with all those things. They do not render solutions because some kind of results lead them to it but they employ solution as a decoration of loyally and friendship to different groups.  So, it would be difficult to expect from a Russian to make any design change unless he has quarrel at personal level and do not need to keeps somebody asses by using their components.  Sing that I do not make any implications: I just portray what is going on common in Russia. BTW, not only in Russia, it is a common behavioral pattern for many Morons in audio….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-28-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 184
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 6
Post ID: 15660
Reply to: 15658
Missed opportunities (or maybe not).
fiogf49gjkf0d
This gentleman's set-up makes me think very much of the one I have in mind for my new room in due course.

Whilst as Romy points out, the room might well be on the small side, it has a very high ceiling (say 4.5 m) that in my mind always presents fabulous opportunities. I remember many years ago when my listening room had such a high ceiling. It did have the most breathtaking view over Tynemouth cliffs and further out to the open expanse of the British channel, and why one would want to ruin the view with speakers might be inscrutable to some...but that's neither here nor there.

If I were in the fortunate situation of this Russian gentleman, I would move the present bass horns to the side to take care of 60-100 Hz and add an upper bass horn on the floor, that would go to 500Hz where presumably the Rullit drivers might take over up to 8KHz. This would also allow him to try the 'd'Appolito' arrangement with another pair of upper bass horns. This is what I would myself very much like to try if I had the ceiling height that he has...

As for the lower frequencies, the high ceilings give him an infinite number of possibilities, but he might try a tapped horn in the alcove in the far left corner of the room where he has applied some room treatment, or very simply two or three 18" drivers.

It looks to me as if this gentleman has only started out and is in the early stages of experimenting with his set-up but is already playing with some fairly advanced ideas, and is willing to think out of the box. Provided he has the ability to understand his system and its shortcomings, and the humility to see where it needs to be worked on (and I would hasard nothing suggests this is not the case), he may well be on his way to achieving a very nice well-balanced system. I do not like the idea of the dual Goto drivers but that seems to be the overwhelming advice coming out of of that predatory company and its dealers so the Russian fellow cannot be completely blamed for this.

If you do not mind, can someone explain the use of large tracts of foam in this set-up? I imagine it must be in order to avoid reflections on the floor and that may be quite important here given the 2m long or so distance where the bass horns 'couple' with the floor. Again I think that could have been used to good effect differently, for instance if the horns were literally lifted off the floor to ceiling height, which would also enable a much less curved section behind the horn. In this situation, it might well be the flat part of the horn becomes an asset as it enables the horns to couple to the ceiling? It would also free a large amount of floor space. That's definitely what I WOULD DO.

Regards
Rakesh



02-28-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 7
Post ID: 15661
Reply to: 15660
About the size of the room
fiogf49gjkf0d
 oxric wrote:
Whilst as Romy points out, the room might well be on the small side, it has a very high ceiling (say 4.5 m) that in my mind always presents fabulous opportunities.

I have a second opinion about the size of the room. My initial sentiment was that the room is small as they curved tweeter (presuming that it is time aligned). However, I just realized, looking at the second picture (side view), that the bass horn sits a good 3-4 feet from the back wall. The people who have limited space would not do it in THIS type of installation. Macondo for instance does read the back walls and this is why extending Macondo deep into room proved to be very effective. In this Moscow setup MF and HF channels are well shielded from back wall and there is no need to extend speakers from back wall. So, my presumption is that if the owner did it then he has no restriction in the room size. This however made the whole Rulit-Lowther story a bit more problematic. If the room is big and this playback would need to pump a lot of pressure into the room then the yellow drivers would be absolutely the last of what I use. I noted a amp with paid of GM70 tubes. They are in parallel or PP, I do not know, but they still a LOT of power for yellow drivers. With more power that from type 45 tube and more pressure then 95dB the yellow drivers sound not very impressive. If the room is truly big then that Lowther will die long before sound reaches the ears. I might be possible to fish something in it with 1.5K-1.7K crossover point at Lowther but good lack to make that bass hot to run too high…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-28-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Dominik
Poland
Posts 48
Joined on 09-14-2008

Post #: 8
Post ID: 15664
Reply to: 15661
Another room view
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi,
Here is another pic of the room:

http://www18.ocn.ne.jp/~tnk/page009.html
horn system.jpg
02-28-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 9
Post ID: 15667
Reply to: 15664
Interesting competors...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Interesting, according to the link the guy moved from 4 Goto drivers to Rulited Lowther and Foxtex. I wonder if he got sick to burn his Goto drivers. I also wonder what would happen if insted all of it he use the default JBL 2440.

Surly, both Goto and his custom Lowther are interesting competors but in both of cases it “feels” that a midbass channels was missing. Interesting that the Moscow guy was changing MF drivers but did not sense what he was most likely truly missing.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-01-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
haralanov


Bulgaria
Posts 130
Joined on 05-20-2008

Post #: 10
Post ID: 15668
Reply to: 15667
Unknown motivation
fiogf49gjkf0d
Quote taken from here:  http://www.classicaudio.ru/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=98788#p98788

 Jeen wrote:
бас- спаренные драйвера GOTO, нагруженные на 45-герцовый рупор (длина 3.6 м)
Диапазон - 50 - 200 Гц
Среднечастотный рупор (200 - 12000Гц). Динамик Руллита на подмагничивании.
Твитер Fostex T-500 AMK-II


Judging by the chronology of the photos, obviously the first change in the system was the midrange channel. It seems the guy found some sonic faults in his goto compression midrange (and his tweeter channel too) and then changed them with a wideband quasi horn loaded driver. At the moment of this change, the goto supertweeter is still there:

goto tweeter and feastrex.jpg

For some unknown reasons, he later decided to change it with the sharp and artificial sounding fostex supertweeter. What might be his motivation? Logically appears the following question – is that Goto supertweeter so horribly sounding??





"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." -A.E.
03-01-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tuga


Posts 174
Joined on 12-26-2007

Post #: 11
Post ID: 15669
Reply to: 15668
Hunting for clues
fiogf49gjkf0d
 haralanov wrote:
Quote taken from here:  http://www.classicaudio.ru/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=98788#p98788

 Jeen wrote:
бас- спаренные драйвера GOTO, нагруженные на 45-герцовый рупор (длина 3.6 м)
Диапазон - 50 - 200 Гц
Среднечастотный рупор (200 - 12000Гц). Динамик Руллита на подмагничивании.
Твитер Fostex T-500 AMK-II


Judging by the chronology of the photos, obviously the first change in the system was the midrange channel. It seems the guy found some sonic faults in his goto compression midrange (and his tweeter channel too) and then changed them with a wideband quasi horn loaded driver. At the moment of this change, the goto supertweeter is still there:

For some unknown reasons, he later decided to change it with the sharp and artificial sounding fostex supertweeter. What might be his motivation? Logically appears the following question – is that Goto supertweeter so horribly sounding??




I wonder if his record collection might serve as an indication...

Cheers,
Ric


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira Pascoaes
03-01-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 12
Post ID: 15670
Reply to: 15668
The reasons.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 haralanov wrote:
For some unknown reasons, he later decided to change it with the sharp and artificial sounding fostex supertweeter. What might be his motivation? Logically appears the following question – is that Goto supertweeter so horribly sounding??

It is very difficult to make any guess just judging the fact that photographs were changed.  Those people post pictures but never talk about reasons or actual results. A few years back there was guy, I think he was from Greece or from Italy, I do not remember exactly but he was from  the Mediterranian region, so he was traveling around the world, listed different playback installations, shared his views about Sound and the most important interviewed the system owners about their reasons, motivation and interpretation of results. That how the audio journalism shall be taken and his articles WERE interesting. Considering that it had absolutely no commercial exposure I found it was very educational.

So, what we have juts pictures it is very hard to say what is doing on. I am trying but without know people personally it prone to be just guessing.

I do know personally a few people from Jeen site and I am not very big fan of them. I very much do not like Jeen himself. He is an eBay intellectual who lives by cults he creates, I hate those people. Also I did caught Jeen in past on very deliberate lie. Not mistake or blinder which would be fine but very ugly falsification of facts, made very deliberate and in very revolting way. I do not like it and if I see it wipe out the persona from people whom I treat with any respect.

I do not know if the Moscow just is a part of Jeen’s circle. If yes then he can stick his horn in his own ass because he is undoubtedly as much as much idiot as Jeen is and I do not care about his results or reasons. It is possible however, that they are not close, juts live in the same city. If so then here are the options I see for the system owner move from Goto to customized Lowthers

1)      The customized Lowther might have some sonic characteristics that the system owner find valuable. This is very interesting to learn but there are a few factors that I would like to bring to the table. The Jeen’s site says that the owner plays in Jazz band. It does not indicate that his built his playback to play only jazz but considering the he high-pass his Lowther at 200Hz (!!!!!) I doubt that this playback ever played anything serious or seriously. So, of the guy is listening mostly jazz then all bets about motivation are off as they are not justifiable.

2)      The system owner got sick from burning the Goto upper range drivers. Got driver with super fragile VC and ultra-low mass are very vulnerable and have no power handling. I heard from a number of people that it is VERY easy to burn Goto HF drivers and I have seen as some people step away from Goto just because of this reason. There is a guy in South America, I forgot his name, he is well presented at web with all Goto system and he moved out from Goto. I read his comments at AA and Altec site where he was complaining about low power handling of Goto. This Moscow guy use 2A3 amps to drive MF, shall not be too much power from them but if you give a DC pulse to the amp’s input by changing the cables while the amps is on then will  it burn Goto tweeter?

3)      The system owner might have no reasons or motivation but he just following Hi-Fi fashion that Russians invent for themselves. If you look at our idiots like Jonathan Valin for instance then does his change of his speakers preference indicate anything? Of cause not as he has even no “preference” but many other sound unrelated motives why he use one or another acoustic system. The Russians do not have the sinister motivations as the US pimps do but they have their own “issuers”.  Russians are very tribal creatures and they live in many ways as a collective herd.  Their leaders invent for themselves some “party of interests” and then they spend enormous amount of efforts to maintain those cults and own relationship with those “party of interests”.  I personally is very much individualistic and I do not like Russians for their desire to be “violently together” and fear to be independent. Russians mostly do not act or think as an individual but rather as “supported tendency”. So, it is very possible that the Moscow guy was riding in past a wave of Goto popularity. Then the prevailing wind of fashion was changed. 10 year ago a Russian audio propaganda guy sold to Russians the myth about German Natzi audio and all Russians were trading to each ashes from Auschwitz that they believe need to be applied to driver’s diaphragms in order to make it to sound better. I am very little kidding - it was absolutely the same level of idiocy. I think Rulit was riding the way of that German popularity from end of 90s, furnishing Russians with vintage German audio. Eventually he went for making his own drivers and I think nowadays he does a lot of electromagnets with old German paper and leather suspension. That is the current fashion in Russian and the playback of the Moscow guy juts reflects it. Saying all of it I do not make any presumption how good or bad it is, I just say that flowing the current fashion is not a motivation that needs to analyzed.

Anyhow, I hope the Moscow guy will come across this thread or by other means will recognize the he needs a dedicated upperbass channel for his setup.  Then he will not drive his  Lowthers to the horrible 200Hz and will be more realistically see the true performance of his MF driver.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-01-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 159
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 13
Post ID: 15671
Reply to: 15670
Sharp and artificial sounding fostex supertweeter
fiogf49gjkf0d
I'd like to point out that Fostex 500 MKII is very much not sharp and artificial sounding. If anything it's an opposite -little too syrupy , soft and round so it blends with cone mid better than beryllium tweeter. I have no first hand experience with cheaper Fostex drivers. If I can risk a guess why switch from Goto to FR drivers in MF channel I'd bring Romy's phrase "instant gratification" .Easy, non fuss,  integrable sound and fullrange driver can be crossed much lower substituting missing upper bass channel with "farting trough" 8" direct radiator. Formula for Oris BD sound success
03-01-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 14
Post ID: 15672
Reply to: 15671
The way how Fostex supertweeter sounds?
fiogf49gjkf0d
I think it is absolutely not need to discuss how Fostex tweeter sounds as it might sound like anything. Type of crossovering, type of amplification, type of electricity, type of loading, type of time alignment and the precision of time alignment might change sound of this tweeter from anything to everything. I do not particularly defend this or that tweeter but I still feel that it is not the tweeter but how one uses it. This particular case two people report it from “sharp and artificial” to “too syrupy and soft”. Sure different people might have different reference points but I tend to believe that it was just the way how different people used it in two different setups. It is very simple unwilingly to make Fostex-like tweeter to sound sharp and sharp. Unfortunately many people do.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-01-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
haralanov


Bulgaria
Posts 130
Joined on 05-20-2008

Post #: 15
Post ID: 15674
Reply to: 15671
We can't escape from inherent sound of our drivers
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Wojtek wrote:
I'd like to point out that Fostex 500 MKII is very much not sharp and artificial sounding. If anything it's an opposite -little too syrupy , soft and round so it blends with cone mid better than beryllium tweeter.

Are you saying that you compare it to a beryllium tweeter in context of midrange integration with cone midrange driver? I think that Romy is very correct by saying that everything depends of the reference points. In my view, the correct complementary tweeter for any good sounding midrange (most likely extended midrange) driver, should have the same sound characteristics as the driver itself, in order to be absolutely invisible from the listener’s point of view (and of course IF properly integrated). How could it be achieved if the tweeter uses completely different topology? Have you ever had the opportunity to listen really good tweeter, specially designed to have the same type of sound signature as let’s say 8” or 10” extended midrange driver? I mean exactly the same type of tonal characteristics, similar transient speed, and most important of all – similar type of sound presentation. Let me explain what I mean by saying sound presentation. All those small metal domes have very similar type of presentation – the feeling is that you drive very powerful sports car having ultra small diameter tires (let’s say 2” instead of 20”). You can feel the motor is working very hard and you can also feel that it is very powerful, but as result the speed is very low, because of the small diameter tires. This is exactly how I feel that Fostex super tweeter or any 1,25” metal dome tweeter sounds. The listener hears the sound coming from a very small point, so the “audio window” in front of him is also very small – the same as watching a movie on the display of your mobile phone – you are able to get the image, but not to feel the space and atmosphere around the artists and the artist themselves. If you come to Bulgaria to demonstrate  you how a 90mm tweeter presents the sound, you will immediately feel a very big, almost of unlimited size, audio-window in front of you and you will literally get the feeling that you are able to jump inside the recording and to feel the physical aspect of the sound and the original acoustics of the reproduced material. Once you get that feeling, I’m more than sure you will no longer state that the fostex is “little too syrupy , soft and round".

the emperor.JPG

The goal for HF reproductions is to get extremely smooth and natural type of sound, which in the same time has dynamic acceleration faster than the speed of light, having that “bite” when music calls upon. This Fostex is not able to do that. Of course it is not necessary for you or anybody else to agree with me, I’m completely OK with that :-)

 Romy the Cat wrote:
I think it is absolutely not need to discuss how Fostex tweeter sounds as it might sound like anything.

Yes, it might sound like anything. But I’m pretty sure you are able to recognize the sound (pretending that you don’t see what kind of tweeter sits in front of you) of a ribbon tweeter, or of a compression type with very hard metal dome or softer dome, horn-loaded tweeter, cone tweeter, plasma tweeter, or of a low sensitivity cloth dome tweeter, no matter what type of electronics have been used for the test, no matter the crossover point, and no matter if the electricity is super-good or just good. So we have some type of basic inherent sound, which varies to some degree, but it could always be identified as such, judging by different sound characteristics, including the way how the sound is radiated.

 Romy the Cat wrote:
I tend to believe that it was just the way how different people used it in two different setups. It is very simple unwilingly to make Fostex-like tweeter to sound sharp and sharp. Unfortunately many people do.

Although I spend a big percentage of my efforts on tweeter/midrange integration, as I find it one of the most important (if not the most important) aspects in any acoustic system, I have to confess I’m one of those people. And I very much doubt there is a person on this planet who has really succeeded to get civilized sound out of that supertweeter, somehow avoiding its inherent sound signature.

Best regards,
Haralanov




"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." -A.E.
03-02-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 159
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 16
Post ID: 15680
Reply to: 15674
Civilised sound of a tweeter
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have to admit I have no idea and did not experiment with matching horn loaded tweeter to big ,direct radiating "extended range' MF channel. I'm not sure it's doable. I was speculating on the reasons why the owner of Moscow instalation switched from GOTO to fostex tweeter. Horn laded 8" is a different thing than the same driver used as a Direct Radiating unit and although I agree that while the sonic signature of MF /HF should be the same good luck finding appriopriate tweeter. My impression on fostex's sound came from substituting 500MKII with Tad ET-703 (custom leCleach horn instead of TAD's slot) in friends instalation. MF driver was 2" modern JBL neodymiun unit (I don't remember the type)in 340 Edgar Tractrix horn, crossed at 6-7kHz with most probable 2nd order .Compared to TAD fostex was soft , warm , detailed etc. Sure, I know that in well implemented installation I should not be able to tell or point the sound of a tweeter but we just did basic comparison to get a rough idea of sound of those tweeters. Harlanov , I  think that owner of the instalation in question specifically choose 500MKII for it's "inherent sound signature". I've met many who love those warm ping ,ping, ping treble sounds i.e "Cain & cain fostex FR " speakers crowd. I don't see much in this setup. In original form it looked like typical "cut & paste" Goto project but either the drivers were too fragile or more likely it just sounded to too thin and light so owner switched to horn loaded cone for more pronunced upperbass and forgiving mids crossed to "wet" tweeter. I know this sound. Some even consider it "world class" .Best Regards, W
08-08-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
haralanov


Bulgaria
Posts 130
Joined on 05-20-2008

Post #: 17
Post ID: 16809
Reply to: 15653
Another change in his system
fiogf49gjkf0d
This is the latest version of his system. It seems that the guy has replaced his GOTO SG146LD compression midbass drivers with these crappy USSR made 2A9 15" cinema woofers:

2A9 quartet.jpg

More photos here:
http://photo.qip.ru/users/yras/3916507/?mode=xlarge

I will laugh to death if these Russian hard sounding woofers really outperformed his GOTOs... :-))))


"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." -A.E.
08-08-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 18
Post ID: 16810
Reply to: 16809
Who know….
fiogf49gjkf0d
I do not know the “USSR made 2A9”. My feeling is that all USSR-made driver were crap but who knows, might be three is something did exist in there. It is hard to presume that if the guy changed from dual GOTO SG146LD to basically direct radiators with quad or Russian drivers then it is necessary mean anything. We have no idea what this guy is looking in Sound, if anything and had no idea how dual SG146LD  were set and performed in that horn. The word Goto itself does not define anything and in my book use the SG146LD  driver mean no provision to set proper resonance frequency. It is hard to say. To make a midbass horn to sound properly in the same room where the listen take place is very difficult, perhaps the guy was not able to get good sound out of his midbass horn, perhaps there were other reasons. Who know….


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-08-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
haralanov


Bulgaria
Posts 130
Joined on 05-20-2008

Post #: 19
Post ID: 16811
Reply to: 16810
Yes, who knows...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
We have no idea what this guy is looking in Sound

Yes, you are right. That's the biggest problem.
I suspect he misused his gotos (at least to some degree), because there is nothing in the sound of these 2A9 drivers that worth special attention, speaking soundwise. But as you already told - who knows for sure...



"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." -A.E.
08-15-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
haralanov


Bulgaria
Posts 130
Joined on 05-20-2008

Post #: 20
Post ID: 16830
Reply to: 16811
Something new on the horizon
fiogf49gjkf0d
I just found first hand information about the sound of that system and the reason for the last change:

 Yras wrote:
I listened to this system and photos were done by me.
It LOMO 2A-9 in which the coil is changed and (dome), a paper will change later.
They are softer, line and is more musical GОТО.
Very much it is pleasant to the owner of system.
GОТО sounded much more chilly and not interesting.


 



"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." -A.E.
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