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  »  New  Macondo Alternation. Extending the LF line-array..  Macondo and not only Macondo positioning...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  109659  10-29-2005
  »  New  Macondo Horns: biography...  Macondo with Pussy Eyes....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  46031  05-18-2005
  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  No wonder...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     72  407127  07-29-2007
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  1515077  07-26-2009
  »  New  Macondo’s Midbass Project – the grown up time...  Vitavox 15/40...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     455  2004500  05-20-2010
  »  New  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ..  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  12447  10-08-2010
  »  New  Bass impact on Turntable: how to estimate objectively..  I have done some work on this in the past....  Analog Playback Forum     4  29413  11-01-2010
  »  New  The meaning of lowest octave...  Vibrational bass...  Playback Listening  Forum     1  16188  05-18-2008
  »  New  The tapped horns: cons, pros and Sound..  Sorry, no images any more....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     56  487818  04-23-2009
  »  New  Monophonic bass: myth and reality...  I do not think so but I am OK with it....  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     5  24989  04-17-2011
  »  New  The BEST bass cable?..  Dialectic biased cable....  Audio Discussions  Forum     4  27472  04-22-2011
  »  New  Sound from behind a window...  Sound from behind a window....  Playback Listening  Forum     0  9775  04-24-2011
  »  New  Getting more power from SET vs. properly distorting SS...  Sound Board...  Audio Discussions  Forum     4  32849  05-09-2011
  »  New  Impulse response, short notes and midbass horns...  A possible solution to better impulse?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  85916  06-13-2011
  »  New  Constructing LF modules to the limits..  The little glory of my small woofers....  Audio Discussions  Forum     54  335003  04-28-2009
  »  New  A slightly crazy idea for a new approach to LF..  I do like it conceptually......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  15682  03-30-2005
  »  New  Another time aligned 5-way horn project..  Thread moved...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     189  416111  08-12-2015
  »  New  The ULF cannel for my new listening room...  Awesome...  Audio Discussions  Forum     41  8379  07-29-2018
10-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 137
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #: 121
Post ID: 17220
Reply to: 17219
Infinite baffle
fiogf49gjkf0d

That is what I thought you were going for in the first place:
You have the basement right under your listening room, and those wonderful Aura 18" woofers...
You can place them sideways (very important) on some kind of vent that shoots into the room. That way if some liquid is droped it will go straight into the vent and not into the woofers.





10-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 122
Post ID: 17221
Reply to: 17220
A 4th order bandpass vibrator?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks, Jorge, but what you propose and what is done at the pictures your posted has nothing to do with Infinite baffle. This configuration rather reminds me the 4th order bandpass. It is popular setting but it is not what I like as the bass coming from there uselessly more muddy then I wools like to have. I have a local guy here in Boston who runs with his playback dual Electrovoice 30” drivers, loaded in large front chamber and vent them via former air-conditioning vents. I very much do not like the bass he has. I think it is possible to experiment with it and to make it much better but only AFTER the holes in the floor are made and the room is modified. There is no way to test it and to get prove of concept before cutting to floors. Also, I absolutely hate any vibration coming via floor, something that I call bone vibrations. With this configuration my listening chair will be converted to a vibrator. I was thinking along the same line, like place the woofers in basemen in concrete floor and to vent them in the room via a wholes but I do not find the idea elegant enough. I would be more attracted to something more radical, fundamentally radical.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 144
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 123
Post ID: 17222
Reply to: 17219
ULF idea, possibly stupid.
fiogf49gjkf0d
But efficient (in terms of space usage) and radical.

put woofers in the sides of flare of your attic horns, sort of like Danley Synergy horn, not near the throat but towards the mouth area, using the attic as the infinite baffle.
But will the pressurization from the woofers effect the midbass driver performance? Maybe it's worth a try, it's reversible.

Herman
10-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 137
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #: 124
Post ID: 17227
Reply to: 17222
IB vs Horn
fiogf49gjkf0d
Unluckily I have no experience with IB,  would love to.  Any way If you want it hidden and time aligned,  the best bet is the uderground!
Now having all that space there it would be a pity not to go IB.
The IB idea can be much more elegant than the pic shown. 
One advantage is that you can almost pinpoint where you want it and just get your jigsaw to it! 

The main point would be if you decide to use your 18" woofers: You have two choices: to use a Vent type tunnel or mount the woofer on the floor looking up into a protective grid...  I dont know if a woofer going from 20hz down will sound different coming from a vent or from a direct radiator.
Any way the woofer can be mounted on a structure that can double as Vent and floor support,  or could even be detached mechanically from the floor in order to avoid such "bone vibrations". It can get as complicated as you need it to be.

Another idea would be to use some type of horn shooting from the basement:  Radical:  not shure about the time alignment though.  I guess one 18" woofer per side should be enough and let the horn do its job.  time align it properly and let it shoot upwards through a grid, so you can keep your winter view!





10-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 125
Post ID: 17232
Reply to: 17220
A Distributed Infinite Baffle?
fiogf49gjkf0d
How about this idea: to have sort of infinite baffle in PP configuration but to distribute it to the middle of the room as it depicted below?

Bass_Distributed_Infinite_Baffle.JPG




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 126
Post ID: 17233
Reply to: 17232
"Tuning" the "IB"
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, for one thing you will want to be sure of the location before you cut through your floor, ceiling, and/or roof!

While the basic idea of the IB is to have "separate but equal" loads on both sides of the driver, there are plenty of reasons to work up some sort of compromise, not the least of them being that only a "theoretical" driver is really optimized by a "theoretical" solution, not to mention the reality of available space and its organization for most people.

Looking at the drawing, without reflecting, I immediately thought of the the idea of the "port" effect at LF,  whether the loading and unloading would be "gradual" and "diffuse" enough to avoid port "signature" while also avoiding "soft" BR "losses".  Yes, tunnels might even be used to "bolster" naturally flagging response. But I remain skeptical about the quality of the "contribution" made by any "tunnel".  While it is no secret that I extend this skepticism to horns, there may be less disagreement about the role of a straight-sided tunnel at LF.

It may already have been discussed and sketched out here before, to have the entire LF box run straight down through the floor.  For that matter, there might even be ways to work some sort of "vent" back into the room.  I think someone sent in a picture of something like this a few months ago, in the context of holding another "SOTA" LF Machine up for scrutiny (perhaps looking for purchasing support...)?

Sure, the "ports" here would be "damped"...  Still...

As usual, the True Bitch of LF is that only one's best real-time, real world attempt will tell whether it "works" or not!

Best regards,
Paul S
10-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
scooter
Posts 161
Joined on 07-17-2008

Post #: 127
Post ID: 17236
Reply to: 17233
Flip 90 degrees
fiogf49gjkf0d
Flipping the idea horizontal for testing with ports through outside windows on (e.g. on left and right side of room) would make this a relatively easy test and vs. holes in roof and floor.
10-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 128
Post ID: 17237
Reply to: 17236
Little bump and the elephant solutions
fiogf49gjkf0d
Guys, I am not looking or care about the design specifics but rather looking for some fresh idea and inspirations that would make me to think further. You see, if I shut down Macondo and measure just ULF channels then I have just little bump at minus 6-8dB around 23Hz-33Hz and it is it. For this I pay with two large woofer tower, amps, crossovers, cables etc…   too much mess and complexity for such a small benefit.  I know, I know. I understand that produce this “bump” at 25Hz with relatively low distortions there is no other ways then to go for large and expensive solutions. Still, I always feel that smart and elegant and better than expensive and I would like to find a smarter way to get my bump.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 129
Post ID: 17238
Reply to: 17237
How to do THAT?
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Romy the Cat wrote:
Guys, I am not looking or care about the design specifics but rather looking for some fresh idea and inspirations that would make me to think further. You see, if I shut down Macondo and measure just ULF channels then I have just little bump at minus 6-8dB around 23Hz-33Hz and it is it. For this I pay with two large woofer tower, amps, crossovers, cables etc…   too much mess and complexity for such a small benefit.  I know, I know. I understand that produce this “bump” at 25Hz with relatively low distortions there is no other ways then to go for large and expensive solutions. Still, I always feel that smart and elegant and better than expensive and I would like to find a smarter way to get my bump.

Among all interesting alternative ideas that I have there is one that makes me to think a bit out of shoe box. Of cause I could try that propeller woofer that has so much publicity a few years back. It is small and it reportedly gives low bass.

http://www.rotarywoofer.com/

it is $25K per woofer and I need two, it is absolutely not know to me sound and I have null ability to product how that thing might sound. So, unless the propeller woofer people have some kind of framework that would let people like me to do my home trail I think what they do will be more like internet freak show instead of being a practical and viable solution. I also concern that being located in the same focal location with the rest of speakers the rotary woofer might be too mechanically noisy. I do not mention that my Koshka would for sure object if in the middle of her room I install two cat-chopping machines…

Ok, returning back to my out of shoe box idea. What I would like to have idly would be a properly sounding Sunfire True Subwoofer Junior.

http://www.sunfire.com/productdetail.asp?id=10

This thing is a beauty itself. It is 11 by 11 inch small, it is has own amp inside and has own signal-sensing switch the turn itself on, it able to produce stunning acoustic pressure that can literally bring house down. This is a dream come thought for my placation. There is a small problem with this Sunfire prettiness, the same problem that is very common to anything that Bob Carver ever touched – this True Subwoofer sound like shit. I would not call that crap the this True Subwoofer out as bass but it rather it is some kind of generic pressurization of air and this pressurization has very little relevancy to what is being played.

It is not the point however. No one willing to employ the Bob Carver title fart machines but the idea to get all the bass that I need for my 25Hz bump from one small driver and one sq foot of spare I find is very elegant. The question is: how to do it? How to fuck up to rules of physics and to accomplish what I need to accomplish?

The high exertion of the small driver doe not bother be in my specific application. I need to care just one octave at my 25Hz bump, so all normal problem associated with high exertion are not applicable in there.  The problem with one sq foot ULF section, high power and high exertion is that when woofer is pushing or pulling there is not enough buffered space inside the enclosure, so the compressed air in the back of the sq foot ULF produce tremendous amount of distortions. Ok, but how about if we somehow change the rule of the game and insert inside of this small ULF section some kind of equivalent of Black Hole. Now as the woofer compress the air inside of enclosure the Black Hole would instantly and infinitely to consume that pressure, converting my one sq foot ULF section into infinite baffle. The problem with Black Hole is that when a driver goes out then in order to be infinite baffle the Black Hole shall give instant birth to infinite matter, to become sort of equivalent  of Supernova.

Two much fantasy? Not necessarily.  Let to think in very practical trims. I need some kind of solution that would consume and produce air in my hypothetic one sq foot ULF section. I can’t consume or produce matter but for sure I can transfer it. A friend of mine what I was dumpling all of it to him suggested me convert pressure to temperature. He suggested that if the speaker inside would be partially filled with some kind of liquid or gas that can change temperature from pressure than I might accomplish what I am looking for. I do not think that liquid would do it as it has not fast enough transfer function between pressure and temperature. Pretend that a sealed speaker is filled with gas that that has very fast transfer function and the signal besides driving the woofer power also a circuit that dispatch electrons or ions into the gas (remember a vacuum tube?). The gas has ability to change density, or temperature, or anything after being exposed to ionization. So, what we do is to figure out the delay time the driver need to get momentum and shoot electrons/ions into the gas behind the woofer, assuring that the woofer in falling into collapsed space behind it. As woofer need to go back we reverse polarity on our speaker cathode and suddenly the space behind the woofer behind begin to build pressure (along with drop of temperature for instance). I think we are very far here from Black Holes and Supernovas and with popper engineering support something like this might be experimented with…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 184
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 130
Post ID: 17239
Reply to: 17238
ULF from coffee table
fiogf49gjkf0d
If it were me and I had that basement that could be made use of, I would seek to achieve what you have done with your mid-bass horns in the loft. I know that you considered and dismissed the tapped horn idea some time ago but it would cost very little for you to experiment with it as opposed to the dual rotary woofers or home-made black hole solutions.

If the results are to your liking then, you might consider doing what I will do long term when I have a room with adjoining space either in the form of a basement or loft space (provided I like the results that can be obtained from a tapped horn). I would have the mouth of the tapped horn coming up through the floor at the appropriate point and hide most of the tapped horn itself in the basement. The top part of the tapped horn would be a coffee table or side table and neither you nor your guests would even know that it is there.

Best regards
Rakesh

10-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 131
Post ID: 17240
Reply to: 17239
The through-hole tapped horn.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 oxric wrote:
If it were me and I had that basement that could be made use of, I would seek to achieve what you have done with your mid-bass horns in the loft. I know that you considered and dismissed the tapped horn idea some time ago but it would cost very little for you to experiment with it as opposed to the dual rotary woofers or home-made black hole solutions.

If the results are to your liking then, you might consider doing what I will do long term when I have a room with adjoining space either in the form of a basement or loft space (provided I like the results that can be obtained from a tapped horn). I would have the mouth of the tapped horn coming up through the floor at the appropriate point and hide most of the tapped horn itself in the basement. The top part of the tapped horn would be a coffee table or side table and neither you nor your guests would even know that it is there.

Yes, the idea of the tapped horn brought through-hole in the floor is something that I did consider and it is free from many problems that 4th order bandpass enclosures would have. However, I did not “dismiss the tapped horn idea some time ago” but I do not consider it as I never hear the any tapped horns.  I have no idea how they sound and I do look forward to hear them.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 137
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #: 132
Post ID: 17242
Reply to: 17238
25 hz at 6db?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 I need to care just one octave at my 25Hz bump,

I have tried the same solution in a big room, the thing is that we not only got output at 25 hz, but a lot also at 50 hz! There was no way surgically cut it to what we needed and the result was it messed everything up. 
I finally used a tapped horn with a 12" woofer, it was clean enough not mess up things, and blended quite well.

In that room we have 3 different bass solutons working toghether,  2 ten inch pro woofers per side from 140 hz down to fs cutoff (around 45 hz) sealed enclosures, and a pair of 15" servo controlled subwoofers one per side  taking it from 50 hz.  And well the tapped horns, that add a nice punch to it all.

The big problem with this setup is time aligning everything, or finding the correct phase for all the bass drivers: If something is not perfectly in sync,  the woofers start fighting each other and you get a real mess!  We found out once that by lowering the volume of one channel we got more bass output!!!  Something was clearly wrong!

But when they all work toghether, it is very good!

This is why I would go for just one bass solution from your midbass roof horn cutoff, down to what 15 hz!

The Gas solution looks pretty good and I for one would be very interested in seeing how it comes to life!  But frankly, having all that space below just yells for an IB.

10-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 184
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 133
Post ID: 17243
Reply to: 17242
ULF from the SledgeHammer
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have also a fondness for this design which may well suit your room with the line sunk in your basement. It is interesting that this design makes use of two woofers in push-pull configuration as well as making use of a transmission line. The only transmission line I have had, an IMF RSPM reference put me off slightly, as although it had very low bass, it sounded bloated and muffled. Nonetheless this is a design that goes back many decades and I believe it must be possible to achieve better solutions nowadays, see the following for what looks like a promising attempt (I call it The SledgeHammer because of its shape):

http://www.teresaudio.com/haven/subs/subs.html

 Jorge wrote:
 

In that room we have 3 different bass solutons working toghether,  2 ten inch pro woofers per side from 140 hz down to fs cutoff (around 45 hz) sealed enclosures, and a pair of 15" servo controlled subwoofers one per side  taking it from 50 hz.  And well the tapped horns, that add a nice punch to it all.

The big problem with this setup is time aligning everything, or finding the correct phase for all the bass drivers: If something is not perfectly in sync,  the woofers start fighting each other and you get a real mess!  We found out once that by lowering the volume of one channel we got more bass output!!!  Something was clearly wrong!



Jorge, I wonder how you actually use the two ten inch woofers. Is it a push-pull configuration with one facing out and the other pointing inside the enclosure? So what frequency range do the tapped horns provide, and do they overlap with the 15" subs?

Best regards
Rakesh
10-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bud
upper left crust united snakes
Posts 87
Joined on 07-07-2005

Post #: 134
Post ID: 17244
Reply to: 17243
Why not really use the basement
fiogf49gjkf0d
I think you should investigate a transmission line subterranean woofer system. One tuned for 8 Hz and turned off at 28 Hz. That way you could use your beloved lite weight drivers where they are most useful and a super woofer with XBL magnet structure as the slant plane transmission line driver. You will not get clearer or more textured bass out of any other structural type. I suggest this because TL's bypass your hated boing-a-boing-a-boing bass from typical reinforcement resonators. Plus I know how fanatical you are about transient speed and a TL will keep up with the rest of your system.

You can also EnABL your room to enhance the focus and transient attack of airborne bass notes with simple to apply patterns in the corners of the room.

Bud
10-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 135
Post ID: 17245
Reply to: 17242
Never say never
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Jorge wrote:
 I need to care just one octave at my 25Hz bump,

I have tried the same solution in a big room, the thing is that we not only got output at 25 hz, but a lot also at 50 hz! There was no way surgically cut it to what we needed and the result was it messed everything up. 
Jorge, I would leave your comment that there is “no way surgically cut it to what we needed” free for interpretation.” Anything can be done if person knows what he wants. Remind you that under 50Hz there is very difficult to generalize anything. You need to deal with given specific results, recognize and interpret the results and navigate sound to where you feel it has to be. You were in my old room and any audio-sane person that in that room it is impossible to get interesting bass. I think it was interesting, if so then why do you feel that in my new room I had settled for less interesting sound?

A few comments in context of your post. At sub 50Hz bass in not frequency but cloud. You cannot say that it is 43Hz unless you VERY much familiar with the sound of this given room at given location. So, I treat the conversation about sub 50Hz sound with some numeric abstractedness and roundness. Also, when I said about my bump I mentioned the location of the pitch but I did not said anything about the steepness of the bump. Of cause it has some spread to 50Hz but I would like remind you that I play much more delicate game. In addition to all bass requirement I have my midbass horn back-and-above and I need to let the ULF channels to inject some overtones from front. This effectively defeat the whole concept of ULF, converting it to regular LF but I use some tricks – my ULF are sitting at low end transition slope. The Midbass run down to 42Hz and ULF sits at 20Hz crossover. Then I add volume to ULF, making it sonically to sound properly, filling the small gap between 42Hz - 20Hz. So, for my midbass channel my ULF channels act as regular bass but for the rest of the system they act as pure ULF as it has more output at sub auditable region then regular bass channel would have, this what transition slope does. Add to this the defined using of non-symmetrical filters for right and left channels you might get a feeling that the LF I get in here is very much not accidental but very well controlled. I have very little accidental events in my Sound.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-07-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 136
Post ID: 17338
Reply to: 14457
How good ULF needs to be?
fiogf49gjkf0d

This is very interesting question. I do not know a lot of people with whom I might collaborate it as very few run ULF channels. Most of time people run just bass channels. It is my experience that whenever audio people talk or think about the lowest bass then they are talking in reality about 40-60Hz. The ULF in sub 25Hz is not well known. It is not the most of the acoustic systems are not able to handle it but rather about that fact the if it is not ULF then the sub 25Hz is not being delivered properly in listening position.

Anyhow, I looking at the debate about ULF that took place at this site: big driver, small drivers, open baffle, ULF DSET and etc, etc, etc I am asking myself question: how  good ULF need to be? The question is simple but the answer is not. If I shut down Macondo and run only ULF channels at FULL power then I have some kind of sound that not truly sound at all. It is 3 and 4 order at 20Hz – there is so little significant information in there! Sure the impact of the ULF is very meaningful but I wonder if in place of my ULF would be 10 times worse sections but still in proper configuration then would they do the job?

A local audio guy just replaced his woofer towers with some kind of pair of JL Audio Fathom F 113 active subwoofers and he reports that he like the result better. Since he use 50Hz horn I presume that he crosses somewhere at 35-40Hz region. I was not a big fan of his former lower bass but I did not associate it with his hardware but rather with setup factors. I did not hear his new bass solution but he put his Fathoms in time-align position – only this got to make difference to my ears.  The point I am trying to make is that we all know that those little fart-machine do not work for bass as audio people know it, means 40-60Hz. However, can those fart machines be more interesting at 20hz?

I keep thinking about it not because I am frustrated with my ULF. My ULF channels perform very well and I am perfectly comfortable with their sound. I am not comfortable with the amount of efforts it takes to accomplish it and I wonder if considering my very 20Hz crossover point I can go away with much less demanding solution. I for sure will not settle with less interesting sound from my ULF but the biggest question is if the fart-machine ULF at 20Hz will be less interesting. I do not have an answer to this question.

In the end I do not mind to try. If some of your have a pair or very good fart-machines then I would like to too offer my listening room and my current setup for an experiment to study how well fart-machines can do in ULF setting. So, bring them in and let see how at all work. I would be in particularly interested in older model of a British REL Reference series…

Who knows….
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-07-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 184
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 137
Post ID: 17339
Reply to: 17338
How good the user needs to be?
fiogf49gjkf0d
There is some literature available online which looks at how to obtain good bass in a room using more than one subwoofer, which should be of interest to anyone thinking of trying the path you are suggesting, even though the writers were thinking in part in terms of multi-channel sound for home theatres. I found these very interesting when I read these a few years ago and promised to myself that I would experiment with the methods advocated someday. I am taking the liberty of linking the two papers that I found most interesting below:

How many subwoofers? Todd Welti http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Technologyleadership/Documents/White%20Papers/multsubs.pdf

 Getting The bass right. Floyd E.Toole
 http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Technologyleadership/Documents/White%20Papers/LoudspeakersandRoomsPt3.pdf


Unfortunately, this kind of very empirical and iterative approach may well be beyond the ability and resources of many. 

Best regards
Rakesh
11-07-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
scooter
Posts 161
Joined on 07-17-2008

Post #: 138
Post ID: 17340
Reply to: 17339
Maybe . . .
fiogf49gjkf0d
 . . .but the angle of the study / conclusions likely are slanted to support Harman's marketing effort to sell more gear. That was my take-away when I read them a while back. 
11-07-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 184
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 139
Post ID: 17341
Reply to: 17340
I think there is little evidence of marketing bias in the papers. Call me naive if you wish.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Scooter,

You may be right. Harman is a big international organisation which obviously seeks to profit from its marketing effort as well as from research conducted and papers written by its employees. But call me naive if you wish, I do not agree with your view and do not think there is a heavy marketing bias in these papers. Maybe you might point out where you find such evidence?

If you read the papers carefully, a number of inferences can be drawn which suggest that they are not predicating a specific solution for all situations but rather a well-considered and step-by-step approach to the problems one faces in aiming for good bass. There seems to be little evidence that the writers advocate a single approach that fits all situations. On the contrary, there is a sustained emphasis on a need to understand, study, come up with some strategies and experiment again. I do not see anything offensive about this approach. Do you?

It made me think of what I could achieve in my room with any subwoofers I may happen to have at hand, not look for my nearest Harman Kardon retailer for some Harman Kardon branded subwoofers. The papers help dispel quite a few erroneous notions based on faulty science very often forced on the poor hapless punter by professionals of all ilk and not a few forum contributors, again not necessarily Harman Kardon denominated. More dangerous than simply denouncing the research of professionals within the audio industry simply because they are in that industry is to rely too heavily on the haphasard blundering and speculation that we see ample evidence of on countless online forums, and posters who use one-liners to drip skepticism because there is really not that much else they are willing to or can contribute to a discussion.

Best regards
Rakesh
11-07-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 140
Post ID: 17343
Reply to: 17338
Narrow [Band] Tuning (DSP?)
fiogf49gjkf0d
When we were chasing this same (or very similar...) shadow and spinning the same (or very similar...) wheels a while back, I suggested DSP EQ for this, and sane people responded with thoughtful ideas on the subject.  The better RELs have always been relatively easy to integrate, and it may well be that REL has joined the crowd gone digital by now. It would not surprise me at all.  Anyway, I think careful locating and close tuning are necessary at ULF.

Best regards,
Paul S
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