| Search | Login/Register
   Home » Horn-Loaded Speakers» Eventually - a reasonable midbass horn from GOTO (98 posts, 5 pages)
  Print Thread | 1st Post |  
Page 5 of 5 (98 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3 4 5
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Problems with horns: upper bass ..  Must it be about loading?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     109  909528  03-25-2005
  »  New  45Hz Bass Horn..  Can We Ever be Saved From Ourselves?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     23  249032  09-19-2006
  »  New  About cost of electromagnetic drivers...  About cost of electromagnetic drivers....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  17866  07-08-2007
  »  New  Jessie Dazzle Project..  Will this better to be auditable?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     172  1214693  08-03-2007
  »  New  Experience Music Horn Installation @ VSAC..  RCA MI-1428B vs Vitavox S2...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     25  201731  05-27-2008
  »  New  ... again on GOTO Unit drivers.....  GOTO get time-aligned help.... Eventualy!!!...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     107  858143  08-16-2008
  »  New  8" Goto Woofer for 60Hz Horn..  It's not a Goto 8in driver...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  65433  11-03-2008
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  1604581  07-26-2009
  »  New  Why GOTO do not care about time-alignment...  Sarcasm isn't my cup of tea...  Audio News Forum     7  43331  09-22-2009
  »  New  Audio-tekne's "Tone Quality Improvement technique&..  Crooked glasses...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     9  61500  10-10-2009
  »  New  The 5-ways from Germany...  Another Kid?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     38  147059  12-06-2009
  »  New  New show in US, some new horns.....  Horns are like a drunk driver…...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  33556  02-08-2011
  »  New  A new kid in the block: Sadurni Acoustics..  Axpona 2015...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     21  91691  08-22-2011
  »  New  The 5-ways from Germany...  Another Kid?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     38  147059  12-06-2009
  »  New  Another time aligned 5-way horn project..  Thread moved...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     189  478533  08-12-2015
  »  New  The Kato-san's Goto system..  Brilliant...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     10  20594  05-23-2017
06-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Kcct82
Beijing, China
Posts 23
Joined on 09-08-2008

Post #: 81
Post ID: 16533
Reply to: 16531
I wish that was the case...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Romy, I've confirmed through Goto's Japanese dealer that a drop between 200-400hz is normal for 505TT, their suggestion was to double up on drivers or buy the more expensive versions... Looking at the measurements the 505TT is good for 400-1800hz only. Sound wise it is ultra clear and dynamic, I do miss that kick in brass instruments and snare drum rim shots. I'm deciding whether I should turn my midbass horn 90 degrees against the side wall and setup a 4 horn vertical rack more towards the middle of the room. Keith
06-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tuyen
Posts 4
Joined on 09-23-2010

Post #: 82
Post ID: 16534
Reply to: 16533
Any recorded measurements?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Keith,

Is there any chance of sharing the measurements?    I agree with the your comment regarding the sound of them. Although in saying that, I have managed to only listen to a few other different compression drivers so far.   Is there somewhere I can find out more about your bass horn?  Is it much of an improvement over your bass reflex boxes you were using before?    I want to try building a similar front loaded horn for the 15" woofers one day..

Thx
06-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,623
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 83
Post ID: 16535
Reply to: 16534
So far it has nothing to do with Goto.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 tuyen wrote:
When i change the cutoff of the 505tt to 200hz and 250hz, I experience that same 'hole' you mention about.  Hence why I was questioning if it is the 160hz le'clech horn causing this and if using the goto s150 horn with it's different horn profile would change it (eg. playing down to 200hz with a first order slope as recommended??).   I guess from your experiences, it doesn't..

Please note, I don't have any measuring tools though so I'm really just going by my ear which is quite pointless in terms of setting it up properly.  Will eventually get around to it.

Tuyen, you will not get around it. You need to understand that using phrases 200hz, 250hz, 160hz and so on without having very firm understanding what you are talking is absolutely foolish. Only the people who have a lot of experience with listening and measuring, listening and measuring, listening and measuring, the proper measuring I have to say and who interpreted and correlated results of listening and measuring, only those people can make comments frequency and amplitude that have any meaning. If you never did any rudimental measurement of your playback and I presume never did it with any other playback than what point of reference you use when you say Hz or dB? Let face it if you use quantization of any sort then you have to have some kind of idea what the coordinate system of quantization would be. Otherwise - it all absolutely pointless. I understand that you would like to be consistent with a type casting of a typical Goto user: to be clueless. Still, it looks like you’ve have made a number of steps to more sensible direction. So, get yourself RTA – it will be the very next and very mandatory step.

 Kcct82 wrote:
Hi Romy, I've confirmed through Goto's Japanese dealer that a drop between 200-400hz is normal for 505TT, their suggestion was to double up on drivers or buy the more expensive versions... Looking at the measurements the 505TT is good for 400-1800hz only. Sound wise it is ultra clear and dynamic, I do miss that kick in brass instruments and snare drum rim shots. I'm deciding whether I should turn my midbass horn 90 degrees against the side wall and setup a 4 horn vertical rack more towards the middle of the room.

Yep, you have consulted with Goto's dealer – as he has any idea what he is talking about. Wishfully thinking! Did you even see any dealer who does? The 505TT driver as I understand was the WE-555 imitation.  Those small thought drivers can go down to 100hz and can give you the brass’ kick that you are looking for. However, the WE-555- like driver did it loaded in very long horn with over 9dB of horn gain. Goto S150 horn that you use I think a replica of WE-6A or WE-11A horns. However the 555 drive was able to go down to more or less 100 only in 13A, 16A and 17A horns. Look at the picture of the 11A horn and 17A hoe and you will see that they are in of VERY different length and mouths size.

http://www.moviemice.com/we/horns/index.php

So, you still can push your 505TT down but it would require a very different type of horn then what Goto offer with S150. If you go to this direction then you will face a few factors. The 505TT driver itself might be not good for using it so low. The type of bass that you have with such a long horn and suck high level of horn gain will be different, I will be no so clean and much prone to honk then you would get from more conventional loading. You will also find impossible to time-integrate this design idea with the rest of the system. So, I wonder why you are trying to push your 505TT with S150 horn down. Would it be more rational to have you upperbass horn to run a bit higher? If you look to fill the 200-400Hz then it is much more convenient to do with low pass filter of your upperbass horn.

 tuyen wrote:
Is there any chance of sharing the measurements?    I agree with the your comment regarding the sound of them. Although in saying that, I have managed to only listen to a few other different compression drivers so far.   Is there somewhere I can find out more about your bass horn?  Is it much of an improvement over your bass reflex boxes you were using before?    I want to try building a similar front loaded horn for the 15" woofers one day..

Tuyen, I wonder what the measurements of others can do to you? I do not mean to be a jerk about it - I am serious. Yes, conductor can read the score and hear how it sounds. A person who did a lot of own measurements and has an understanding how different measurements correlate to what he/she hear can look at some of measurements and to a degree to predict not how the system sound but if the system has own issues. The whole point is to have the measurements, see the problem in the measurements, to hear how this problem manifests itself; then to correct of the problem by one way or other and see and hear the result. Without doing it many times you do not have a definition of what is acceptable and not acceptable in measurements.

Also, Tuyen, you need to understand that if we are taking about 200Hx then we are taking only about 50% of pressure that is coming from the driver and horn. The room aberration is very high at those frequencies and if it used creatively and knowledgeably then it can substantial change many things:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=4421

Sure, you fee to do whatever you wish but again, before committing your with mid or upper-bass horns do yourself a favor – get RTA, learn how to use it, get your current setup to sound properly, getting the best your current installation can push out itself. Only then begin to think about change or modification. To make your setup to sound as it has to be shall take for you a year or so. Do not make any new acquisitions until you will be able to get out your current setup what is able to do. I know it sounds NOW like foolishness to you but it will come to you….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 84
Post ID: 16536
Reply to: 16535
The Kings are Naked!
fiogf49gjkf0d
I'm following with interest the thread and must say that I'm baffled: Goto's "instructions" are - SIMPLY said - a mix between non-existent and wrong... I love what Goto's did in my system... BUT I think I did more with "my own" care, "my own" taste, "my own" pushing the jump-bar ahead, being curious and never content of the "ownership", per se, BUT playing as a cook with a kitchen table full of great ingredients... a starting point to prepare a nice dish.

An home grown tomato can be as tasty and classy as a gourmet, super-expensive plate and... let me say: Goto or whatever are - ALWAYS - a starting point and there's absolutely no guaranty of successful results, period.

Me too, four years ago, I was (wrongly) feeling me as arrived at the harbour... i.e. - hey, I own Goto... BUT, I learned, it was the beginning of a trip, not yet finished: RTA, new studio and speakers positioning, diaphragms alignment, digital time alignement and room correction... 

My best luck was knowing of and meeting Franz Hinterlehner from Austria, a dedicated, no frills, knowledged and super-serious tech-head, who - as Roman pointed out - is able to properly measure and talk about hertz and decibels and related... not as a pub-chatting but finalized to a musically coherent and satisfying result.

Like when a cook looks at the ingredients and the plate isn't ready, yet... the same a LOT OF attention and knowledge is needed.

The "Goto's instructions" made me deluged, almost angry... Mingsu and every Goto user around simply repeated a dogma - parrot-like - since the times of "Royal Sound/Goto", back in the '70s.. 1st order/2nd order and "those" foolish frequencies cut-offs... BLAME on them!

Franz and myself - while working at my system - discovered mixed, bad and extremely good, things, while dealing with my Gotorama: the SG-570BL with S-150 horn mid-low isn't good between 100 or 150 (the horn name;-)) or 400 hz with a.m. crossover and cut-off frequencies... it's - in my (small) room -  250 hz 4th order low pass and 1200 high-pass 1st order... and the distortion is an AWESOME 0,06% (!!!) at 1000 hz, with 112,8 db/W/m sensitivity, so - unbelivable, and VERY near to specs... also it's pure BS "that" 5000 hz for the poor SG-16TT... my own SG-160BL is - after careful measuring and computer rendition and fiddling, crossed at 7000 (1st order) with S-600/SG-370DX-BL... at 5000 hz there was a deeeep valley and a lot of TacT's digital  correction needed...

... but, hey... it's my system, room, tastes and ears!

I (now) absolutely know that it's virtually IMPOSSIBLE to tune a three or a four ways system - any make - by ear and that, in this VERY case, DIYing can be a very boring, unsatisfying and extremely expensive way to go... 

I'm sincerely glad "we" (someway) all contributed to loudly say - "The Kings are Naked!" - i.e. as Mingsu would say;-) - a Lamborghini doesn't make a Schumacher, a Goto (or Vitavox or ALE or WE or Kanno or G.I.P.) doesn't make - per se - a great system... a piled bunch of drivers on a bass box isn't a top system (also my fault for years...): it's someway organized, maybe pleasant, "noise"- BUT not shivers-making "music"... same happens when I press " bypass" push-button on TacT's remote... "What?!?! I was listening to this shit?"

Strangely, it reminds when - a couple of years ago - I had some serious kidneys disease... ONLY when I was cured and out of the hospital, I understood how bad I was, before... it's quite elusive and dangerous stuff: audio-wise, I suggest to do not buy or sell anything 'til you'll do your homeworks (RTA and the like) or - if technically flawed like yours truly - to find your personal "Franz Hinterlehner"... I sincerely wish you the last evenience. Tuyen;-)

 



"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
06-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tuyen
Posts 4
Joined on 09-23-2010

Post #: 85
Post ID: 16537
Reply to: 16536
Proving to be true..
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks for your advice Romy and Stefano.

I have used RTA with condenser mic in my past systems but I admit I am no professional at it. But I am not clueless with it either..  In my previous setup when I was playing with open baffle designed speakers, I was using it mainly to see the roll off of the drivers and the in-room frequency response of them.   Then I was experimenting with digital eq (behringer dcx2496) to hear the effects when I sort out the 'valleys'.   That is as far as my knowledge goes in terms of using it.    I was always gonna head through the same phase with my horn setup (which is only relatively recent that I managed to get all the parts needed to start it playing at least..)   Is there any other controls apart from time alignment and eq that  I should be looking into?

After reading your post Stefano about setting the tweeter at 7k as at the recommended 5k, there is a 'deep valley',  I changed mine from 6.3k to 8k  (ie. letting the sg-370 play upto 8k)  and it already sounds more 'fuller' and more balanced.   This simple change has made me realise and understand about what you have posted and I can see it being very good advice for me! 

So, many thanks again Stefano.. Smile
06-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
MINGSU
Posts 28
Joined on 11-22-2007

Post #: 86
Post ID: 16538
Reply to: 16536
Why will it expect to be good at that range??
fiogf49gjkf0d
"the SG-570BL with S-150 horn mid-low isn't good between 100 or 150 (the horn name;-))"

Why will it expect to be good at that range??  The S-150 horn has cutoff frequency of 150Hz.  The suggested crossover point is 200Hz from GOTO.

There is no doubt that with S-150 horn, all low midrange driver will work - 505, 570 and 5880 but each level of driver upgrade will sound better.  The reason that user start from 505 is not because it is the best choice but because it is the most affordable starting point.

Yes.  it take years of effort for a DIYer to get a multi-horn system to work right and correct.  No one said it is easy and cheap but if you can bear with the cost and effort, it is certainly worth the effort.  Of course, one can always hire a professional to speed up the learning curve.  Again, my car example, if you are driving a F1 car and it is going too slow - the chance is the driver is the problem, not the car.......  If you want your team to win the F1 race, hire a professional F1 racer..........

I think you pointed out correctly.  GOTO sell speaker driver and not a system - because it is impossible to pre-config a multi-horn system to fit every buyer's room and sound taste.

As a business, I offer the full service of installation and setup tailor to each buyer's room and sound taste.  The cost is high but save you years of trial and error - some will say that suck out all of the fun but for others it is just driving faster to finish line.....
06-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,623
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 87
Post ID: 16539
Reply to: 16536
All Kings are Naked.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 twogoodears wrote:
I'm following with interest the thread and must say that I'm baffled: Goto's "instructions" are - SIMPLY said - a mix between non-existent and wrong... I love what Goto's did in my system... BUT I think I did more with "my own" care, "my own" taste, "my own" pushing the jump-bar ahead, being curious and never content of the "ownership", per se, BUT playing as a cook with a kitchen table full of great ingredients... a starting point to prepare a nice dish.

An home grown tomato can be as tasty and classy as a gourmet, super-expensive plate and... let me say: Goto or whatever are - ALWAYS - a starting point and there's absolutely no guaranty of successful results, period.

Me too, four years ago, I was (wrongly) feeling me as arrived at the harbour... i.e. - hey, I own Goto... BUT, I learned, it was the beginning of a trip, not yet finished: RTA, new studio and speakers positioning, diaphragms alignment, digital time alignement and room correction...

My best luck was knowing of and meeting Franz Hinterlehner from Austria, a dedicated, no frills, knowledged and super-serious tech-head, who - as Roman pointed out - is able to properly measure and talk about hertz and decibels and related... not as a pub-chatting but finalized to a musically coherent and satisfying result.

Like when a cook looks at the ingredients and the plate isn't ready, yet... the same a LOT OF attention and knowledge is needed.

The "Goto's instructions" made me deluged, almost angry... Mingsu and every Goto user around simply repeated a dogma - parrot-like - since the times of "Royal Sound/Goto", back in the '70s.. 1st order/2nd order and "those" foolish frequencies cut-offs... BLAME on them!

Franz and myself - while working at my system - discovered mixed, bad and extremely good, things, while dealing with my Gotorama: the SG-570BL with S-150 horn mid-low isn't good between 100 or 150 (the horn name;-)) or 400 hz with a.m. crossover and cut-off frequencies... it's - in my (small) room -  250 hz 4th order low pass and 1200 high-pass 1st order... and the distortion is an AWESOME 0,06% (!!!) at 1000 hz, with 112,8 db/W/m sensitivity, so - unbelivable, and VERY near to specs... also it's pure BS "that" 5000 hz for the poor SG-16TT... my own SG-160BL is - after careful measuring and computer rendition and fiddling, crossed at 7000 (1st order) with S-600/SG-370DX-BL... at 5000 hz there was a deeeep valley and a lot of TacT's digital  correction needed...

... but, hey... it's my system, room, tastes and ears!

I (now) absolutely know that it's virtually IMPOSSIBLE to tune a three or a four ways system - any make - by ear and that, in this VERY case, DIYing can be a very boring, unsatisfying and extremely expensive way to go...

I'm sincerely glad "we" (someway) all contributed to loudly say - "The Kings are Naked!" - i.e. as Mingsu would say;-) - a Lamborghini doesn't make a Schumacher, a Goto (or Vitavox or ALE or WE or Kanno or G.I.P.) doesn't make - per se - a great system... a piled bunch of drivers on a bass box isn't a top system (also my fault for years...): it's someway organized, maybe pleasant, "noise"- BUT not shivers-making "music"... same happens when I press " bypass" push-button on TacT's remote... "What?!?! I was listening to this shit?"

Strangely, it reminds when - a couple of years ago - I had some serious kidneys disease... ONLY when I was cured and out of the hospital, I understood how bad I was, before... it's quite elusive and dangerous stuff: audio-wise, I suggest to do not buy or sell anything 'til you'll do your homeworks (RTA and the like) or - if technically flawed like yours truly - to find your personal "Franz Hinterlehner"... I sincerely wish you the last evenience. Tuyen;-)
Great post, Stefano. What I would like to add is that the division of audio thing on Kings and Peasant is a purely artificial invention of from people who do audio trade and it is commonly known that those people are no blessed with understanding of royalty. Again, it is very much not ageist of Goto or any other drives. It is against the idiocy that in the eyes of a common typical Goto users substitute reality. It is like Tanaka San said: “Goto do not need to time align”. Any other driver need but Gotos do not and the green color of the drivers bends the rule of physics and common sense, not to mention the listening experience… The truth is that despite all that ignorant saliva dripping by some individuals around  Goto the true capacity, cons and prose of the Goto drivers are not yet been exposed.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 137
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #: 88
Post ID: 16540
Reply to: 16536
RTA
fiogf49gjkf0d
Do get an RTA,  it is amazing how different the frecuencies are from what we imagine, 50 hz is very low!  150 hz is a vital freq, and a lot of female voices have a very nice fullness at 150 hz.  It is hard to tell without measuring what is happening in your system and in your room.
You have to learn the way your room interacts too,  ie, my room has a resonance at 50 hz and a small suckout at 100 hz on one side.  I tried to fix that electronically,  but all musicality was lost,  I had to RTA everything and adjust volumes as good as possible with still some spikes and deeps but very musical.  This is where multiamping helps a lot.  But these adjsutements have to be guided by RTA readings.
I have even found in a friends system that one of his woofers was wired incorrectly from the factory,  so a double woofer box on one side,  was having terrible readings untill we inverted the wires on one unit,  then all was fine,  and the sound was terrific.
Now it is important to know what your system is putting out with measuring,  but the adjstements that really count, can only be done by ear,  no RTA is sharp enough or has the taste to tune your system as you like it,  and this tuning is what music is all about.  You can have two systems that measure "perfectly"  and one will sound like crap while the other will be heaven.

IMHO the thing about GOTO is that we keep judging it as it was a finished product, as it was a Ferrari or a Lamborgini,  when the truth is,  they only sell the wheels,  or the engine, (no pun intended).  When you go out and buy a pair of speakers, say those horrible box speakers, the designer has already made all the adjustments,  with an RTA, and a handfull of wirewound resistors (jijiji) and gives us a finished product of whatever quality, and that is what you get.  If you want to readjust bass,  push them closer to the wall!  But it is one big package,  GOTO can only serve the DIY market,  with all the different specimens of diyers included.  So they give some starting guidelines,  point the horn forward to the listener... If you dont get enough volume at 200 hz get a second driver.

I have at the moment installed a pair of JBL 2490 drivers on my 120 hz Tactrix horns,  taking out a 10" cone driver and adding an extension.  I get very good flat response from a little under 200 hz up to 1.5 khz and then it gets spiky.  Compared to the cone driver inside the horn,  the compression driver down to 200 hz is wonderful,  it is not a huge difference but clarity, dinamics and integration are better,  of course the cone driver goes down to 100 hz and that makes a very big difference in bass and fullness,  mostly when my channel right under it cannot go any higher than 120 hz,  so I have a big hole,  but it is fine a the moment, I want to learn what the 2490 can do and cannot do,  in order to help it out with the other channels.  I am now working on a mid bass horn down to 50 hz (40 hz hopefully) and may be doing a smaller horn for the 2490 and bringing the 10" drivers back on duty,  but for the time being, I will get to know the 2490s perfectly.

PS: Yes I did push back all the other horns as far as the new extension will go in order to time align everything!
06-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 89
Post ID: 16541
Reply to: 16537
Tuyen, never be tired...
fiogf49gjkf0d
... of trying, again and again, and taking records of results... as you own (sound-wise flawed and veiled;-)) but extremely easy Pioneer D-23, I'd also try a steeper slope between your SG-38 and SG-505... try D-23's max available 3rd order slope to more precisely tune, giving an airier, quicker feeling  - i.e. between 220 and 260 hz - on the mid/low.
Glad you're going ahead, Tuyen... me too, I'd be someway sad if I'd stop learning and - hopefully - getting better.
All the best wishes for your musical advancement. 


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
06-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,623
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 90
Post ID: 16542
Reply to: 16538
“Tailor to each buyer's room and sound taste. “
fiogf49gjkf0d
 MINGSU wrote:
I think you pointed out correctly.  GOTO sell speaker driver and not a system - because it is impossible to pre-config a multi-horn system to fit every buyer's room and sound taste.

As a business, I offer the full service of installation and setup tailor to each buyer's room and sound taste.  The cost is high but save you years of trial and error - some will say that suck out all of the fun but for others it is just driving faster to finish line.....

MINGSU, I hope you understand the oxymoronic and in a way bogus nature of this statement. You are not in the business to build custom installations. You sell drivers of a single manufacture, the manufacture that is extremely uptight with applicability of those drivers. You might fancy yourself that you “offer the full service of installation and setup tailor to each buyer's room and sound taste” but going it would require to have much wider and opened mind then juts adherence to the single maker. I think that if you feel that you are way behind the finish line and know the meaning and the shortcut to the finish line then you might over estimate own standing as so far you did not express anything that in my view would symbolize it. So far all that your business offer is line of the drivers that are more expensive then some others, juts more expensive, not better, as you do not know what better or worse is, still and you feel that this advantage of price gives you a good view over the finish line. Well, I think it is very optimistic view on your part but as long as it makes you happy…

Anyhow, it would be nice if you post at your site some examples of the installation that your business has built, the tailor requirements and has and the custom objectives it pursued… 
 
The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 91
Post ID: 16543
Reply to: 16539
... indeed...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

 twogoodears wrote:
I'm following with interest the thread and must say that I'm baffled: Goto's "instructions" are - SIMPLY said - a mix between non-existent and wrong... I love what Goto's did in my system... BUT I think I did more with "my own" care, "my own" taste, "my own" pushing the jump-bar ahead, being curious and never content of the "ownership", per se, BUT playing as a cook with a kitchen table full of great ingredients... a starting point to prepare a nice dish.

An home grown tomato can be as tasty and classy as a gourmet, super-expensive plate and... let me say: Goto or whatever are - ALWAYS - a starting point and there's absolutely no guaranty of successful results, period.

Me too, four years ago, I was (wrongly) feeling me as arrived at the harbour... i.e. - hey, I own Goto... BUT, I learned, it was the beginning of a trip, not yet finished: RTA, new studio and speakers positioning, diaphragms alignment, digital time alignement and room correction...

My best luck was knowing of and meeting Franz Hinterlehner from Austria, a dedicated, no frills, knowledged and super-serious tech-head, who - as Roman pointed out - is able to properly measure and talk about hertz and decibels and related... not as a pub-chatting but finalized to a musically coherent and satisfying result.

Like when a cook looks at the ingredients and the plate isn't ready, yet... the same a LOT OF attention and knowledge is needed.

The "Goto's instructions" made me deluged, almost angry... Mingsu and every Goto user around simply repeated a dogma - parrot-like - since the times of "Royal Sound/Goto", back in the '70s.. 1st order/2nd order and "those" foolish frequencies cut-offs... BLAME on them!

Franz and myself - while working at my system - discovered mixed, bad and extremely good, things, while dealing with my Gotorama: the SG-570BL with S-150 horn mid-low isn't good between 100 or 150 (the horn name;-)) or 400 hz with a.m. crossover and cut-off frequencies... it's - in my (small) room -  250 hz 4th order low pass and 1200 high-pass 1st order... and the distortion is an AWESOME 0,06% (!!!) at 1000 hz, with 112,8 db/W/m sensitivity, so - unbelivable, and VERY near to specs... also it's pure BS "that" 5000 hz for the poor SG-16TT... my own SG-160BL is - after careful measuring and computer rendition and fiddling, crossed at 7000 (1st order) with S-600/SG-370DX-BL... at 5000 hz there was a deeeep valley and a lot of TacT's digital  correction needed...

... but, hey... it's my system, room, tastes and ears!

I (now) absolutely know that it's virtually IMPOSSIBLE to tune a three or a four ways system - any make - by ear and that, in this VERY case, DIYing can be a very boring, unsatisfying and extremely expensive way to go...

I'm sincerely glad "we" (someway) all contributed to loudly say - "The Kings are Naked!" - i.e. as Mingsu would say;-) - a Lamborghini doesn't make a Schumacher, a Goto (or Vitavox or ALE or WE or Kanno or G.I.P.) doesn't make - per se - a great system... a piled bunch of drivers on a bass box isn't a top system (also my fault for years...): it's someway organized, maybe pleasant, "noise"- BUT not shivers-making "music"... same happens when I press " bypass" push-button on TacT's remote... "What?!?! I was listening to this shit?"

Strangely, it reminds when - a couple of years ago - I had some serious kidneys disease... ONLY when I was cured and out of the hospital, I understood how bad I was, before... it's quite elusive and dangerous stuff: audio-wise, I suggest to do not buy or sell anything 'til you'll do your homeworks (RTA and the like) or - if technically flawed like yours truly - to find your personal "Franz Hinterlehner"... I sincerely wish you the last evenience. Tuyen;-)
Great post, Stefano. What I would like to add is that the division of audio thing on Kings and Peasant is a purely artificial invention of from people who do audio trade and it is commonly known that those people are no blessed with understanding of royalty. Again, it is very much not ageist of Goto or any other drives. It is against the idiocy that in the eyes of a common typical Goto users substitute reality. It is like Tanaka San said: “Goto do not need to time align”. Any other driver need but Gotos do not and the green color of the drivers bends the rule of physics and common sense, not to mention the listening experience… The truth is that despite all that ignorant saliva dripping by some individuals around  Goto the true capacity, cons and prose of the Goto drivers are not yet been exposed.

The Cat

Thanks, Roman... again and again you... we... are trying to "scratch" the myth and I'm - someway - amused by the (unsurprisingly) multi-faceted stuff... green colour and foolishness, people misunderstanding the truest meaning of the whole and - sometimes - wrongly offended... enough to write an intriguing sci-fi or dadaist story:-) 
Also thinking that talking about "Goto" - positively or negatively - we're fueling the a.m. myth, as well... yet, I still like to romantically think about a Volksgoto... more than "Royal Sound", which was the old brand/name of Goto's Japanese distributor back in the '70s... Kings and Peasants... someway unimportant, as Music is so "democratic" and - hopefully - audio would also be so...
Slightly unrelated... I'm dreaming, eyes wide shut... after spa, wine and food, sea or mountain tourism, we'll soon see an audio tasting tourism arising... ONLY way to "know" and "learn"...
Any good sounding system, owned by any sincere music-lover, is much welcome;-) 


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
06-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,623
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 92
Post ID: 16544
Reply to: 16543
My interest in Goto drivers.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Ok, since you people stop to drop the euphoric saliva around the Goto subject I think it would be worth to outline my interest in Goto.  Not only worth but I kind of feel an obligation. I feel that my site surprisingly has become a resource that has the most valuable information in English about Goto drivers. Ironically I do not even use Goto drivers but if you look at the sites where people do use them then you will see nothing more than idiocy expressed  - never made a secret that I am not satisfied with level of discussion that Goto people are able to support.  Feel free to read other sites and make your mind. I was trying in part to raise some issuers, like here for instance in my dialog with Summ:

http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php?topic=60.435

…but besides Summ that site figured German and Asian Goto dealers with whom to talk about sound is like to explain to cockroach a theory of general relativity. Anyhow, whay I wouls like to talk is not about the Goto drivers but about 3 very specific zone of interest that I have about Gotos.

1)      I do not care about Goto bass drivers, the people who understand my ideas about playback organization can easily figured out why. However, Goto has one very interesting driver SG146LD4. It is a compression driver with 4” exit and this driver might be very interesting candidate to try in upperbass horn. For sue it need to be modified to have resonance frequency match my upperbass horn and then it would be very interesting to see if it will be able to compete with a compression driver that I made from Fane Studio 8M. I do not know the outcome and I would not predict it.  I most likely never try it and it is too large project to assure the proper performance of the unknown Goto unit and it will ruin my current upperbass setting. I am not frustrated with my current upperbass to undertake this project. Still, I would be very interesting if someone with brain and ears would go to this rout and publish the results.

2)      It would be very interesting to try Goto SG-370 series drives in MF. Again, I am not sure that I would undertake this task as the task would imply a major investment of time and efforts. Nope the investment are no in the cost of the drivers. The street price of Goto MF driver in Japan is very compatible with the price of better JBL and TAD and at used market they sometime are sold for 1K pair. The cost does not come from the drivers but with the efforts to make the driver to sound in the way they do the best. IT take time, it takes amplification, modification of horns, loading and many other thing to assure that a given driver in context of given application does it’s best. I have no frustration with my current MF driver and I do not know if I go for this research if I have a free pair of Goto sitting in my room. I can predict that if I did then most likely the satiation will be very similar with my parley to electromagnets. There were very positive moments with electromagnets but there were negative. I did not find that the positive moments were so remarkable that they outweigh my desire to capitalize on the positive moments and to ruin what I have. I need to hear the truly mind-expending results from Goto in order to adopt it for experiments. I do not have this experience personally and very skeptical toward to the experience of others. Sure, I have an interest but if this interest will have a change to be satisfied I do not know.

3)      This is the very main subject to me: I do not know if Goto can do tone. In my hierarchy of values tone fly very high and I am a bit concerned if Gotos are tone-able. I did not know any single driver that it self-sufficient in tonal world.  I do not say that Goto is more or less capable in tone world then any other driver but faces it: we do not know where tone comes from in audio.  In my own playback I use tone-reach driver but even with it I did not find it sufficient and went for a very deliberate and very measured tonal injection. As a result my MF is very complex combination of my MF driver output, the Injection channel mix and the MF amp distortions. It is very complex but it is very potent. Would a single driver, regardless of the driver name, be able to introduce the demanded level of sonic character and tonal power with the same level of measured precisions? I do not know but I do know that with a single driver there is practically no way to moderate tone. As I said I do not know the tonal power of Goto, the GIP, ALE and I for sure do not see any interest in it among Goto users.

So, how I think my curiosity about Goto might be advanced?  I think sometime in future it might happen that an experience with Goto sound person would come to my listening room, hear the Sound that I have and  would point out the specific problems with my Sound and would explain to me how Gotos might or might not address it. 

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,623
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 93
Post ID: 16551
Reply to: 16544
Here is a case to point.
fiogf49gjkf0d

There is a pair of Goto SG146 drivers at Japanese Yahoo:

http://page6.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/f105296325

….use a translation language of your chose to translate it to the language of your choose. They are Goto bass drives with 4” exit and they along with YL 1250 occasionally pop up on used market for $7-$8K. I am sure that now a Goto rep would jump in and begin to claim that they are old driver and in order to get the “fool magic of Goto” one need to by the cotemporary SG146 production. Idiosyncratically he will not be able to tell what is the difference between older production of SG146 and newer SG146 SG146LD. The reality I am pretty sure is that there is no such a thing as new and old production of Goto driver and there is no version or quietly control for those drivers. It is a small basement-based operation where “versions” come from what parts the suppliers send to them this time. They sell perhaps less than 10 drivers per year and they do not know how to listen then – so any conversations about Goto versions are pure fantasy.

Anyhow, here they are an opportunity for someone to experiment with Gotos for midbass horn. The 4” exit would make fine 50-80Hz horn, if someone has room to right align it (and it will be long horn) then it might be worth to play with it. I will not do it myself but if someone gets them then I do not mind to help to adopt them, if the person would share his observations about results.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-13-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,623
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 94
Post ID: 16674
Reply to: 16523
Goto setup at Capital Audiofest.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 MINGSU wrote:
You can hear a full 4 way GOTO in this event next month.  Come down, stop by, enjoy and judge yourself, in person. 

http://www.capitalaudiofest.com/  July 8-10 in Rockville, MD.

It looks like out friend MINGSU did make the show and did demonstrate a new setup with his Goto drivers. I think this is very good move for Goto as by Mingsu’s efforts they will market not only individual drivers but the actual sonic results that might be accomplished in a complete inhalation.

The new system looks like have back-loaded dipole bass twin, looks like hyperbolic 150Hz horn channel, next channel looks like 300Hz horn and a tweeters. All drivers are from Goto, I presume the bass drivers Goto as well.

GOTO_Audiofest_2.jpg

What I see good in this installation. It look like this time they made an efforts to time-align the channel – this is new for Goto setup and I think the credit goes to Mingsu or to whoever he hire to assisted him. Also, it is very seldom that always moronic Goto users have brain to locate upper MF and tweeter vertically, in the way how Mingsu’s setup has. Mostly Goto users pile up the upper channels horizontally that makes as much sense as to design a better anchor in order a ship to go faster.

As the criticism of this setup I would note a creaming absents of MF channel. With horn you can’t not hide what is going on and size of the channel need to be GRADUALLY increased. The gradualness of the channel’s size change is not a panacea and it itself do not assure anything but it for sure give very high flexibility to moderate output of individual channel and to shape proper sound for the given environment. In the setup that Mingsu present if you need to add more output at let say an octave un an down to 1000Hz then you have absolutely no control.

Another major thing that I do not like is the design of the frame hat holds their upperbass channel or whatever region it covers. For sure it must not be angled but it is not what I mean. What I mean that it looks and feels ugly and very much non-functional. It feels like chicken-wire crap that we do in our basements for prototype sake. I do not know if Mingsu market the individual drivers or the entire setup but if he willing to present the System then, please, spend some efforts and to design the horn frame appropriately. The horn frame is hugely underestimated ingredient of multi-horn system and most of the DIYers do not get it. A proper horn frame is very inexpensive but VERY expensive in design decisions.  In addition to design a proper frame has HUGE disciplining effect to system owner and allows reevaluating many aspects of multi-horn system. Mingsu, or whoever behind him, need for sure to redo the frame for this setup.

I have no idea how it sound and I hope Mingsu will share his observation about the Sound he was able to achieve.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jeno
Posts 1
Joined on 08-17-2010

Post #: 95
Post ID: 16701
Reply to: 16674
Capital Audio Fest
fiogf49gjkf0d

It looks like the system John Sheerin developed.

http://www.jhsaudio.com/index.php

Scroll down to the bottom of his site to see some pictures and info.
07-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,623
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 96
Post ID: 16704
Reply to: 16541
Russian idioms and Goto patients
fiogf49gjkf0d

The funny and poor Tuyen. It looks like another audio guy, as Russians says, “went over the hands”. The “went over the hands” is a very interesting Russian idiom that use very frequently apply to audio people. Years back it was once very deservingly applied toward to me. Thanks God, never again.

The meaning of “went over the hands” is hard to explain but I will give you an example. Pretend you are a person who has kindly problem and you go to doctor. The doctor convinces you that it is not kiddy but hart. The hart doctor makes you to believe that it is inflammation of your nose. The otorhinolaryngologist informs you that it is from rash on your foot. The Podiatric specialist tell you that you have brain tumor. The neurologist informs you that the problem from pain coming from your rotten tooth. The dentist tell you that it is not your tooth but your liver… and so on and so on and so on… As the result you have performered brain surgery, amputated leg, use artificial kindly, pulled off all your teeth and removed a half of your nose. You still have your pain in your left kindly however…

Russians call this situation “went over the hands” or the situation when a person has no sense of own identity of actions or objectives and just allowed himself to be used and manipulated in any imaginable way. How frequently it is happen in audio, in fact the entire audio industry is built to discover and to abuser those weak people.  The audio sales people actually sell to each other the contact information of people who are prone to “go over the hands”….

Anyhow, the reason I mention it all at Tuyen is unquestionably is “walking around the hands”. It looks like this “rhlauranna” drives him across the hands.  The “rhlauranna” look like a dealer from Germany. It looks like he is not a normal dealer with store, investment and so on but the new type “internet friend” type of the dealer, like the late Joe Roberts and the rest of them. Anyhow, I do not care what he does, whatever makes him happy, but I am truly laughing about Tuyen. The guy, without any own reasons, just got a few month back a new set of the drivers, new horns, new electronics. He did not mange to setup the system as now “rhlauranna” convince him that the only thing that can bring him happiness is that ridicules 20Hz horn and the Tuyen is in his run to get a new house to accommodate such a horn.  God, how Moronic people might be? In my estimation Tuyen with the playback he has now need a few years to understand what he is doing and how to get for his current playback what it shall/might yield. “rhlauranna” stuffs him with the idiocy of Goto rising star and Hiraga amps rising star, some kind of idiotic Killer Dac rising star and the poor Tuyen sucking it in as no tomorrow. Well, I am pretty much shire that it was the path of 95% of Goto users out there..

Good for “rhlauranna” BTW. When he retire and will not have interest to shepherd his Goto user he needs to sell his contact list to a young Audio Note rep and your will see audio-retards around the world will drop this Goto gear and install nice AN single driver boxes…

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 97
Post ID: 16706
Reply to: 16701
Goto prototype system developed on request 4/24/2010
fiogf49gjkf0d
Jeno wrote:

"...It looks like the system John Sheerin developed..."

Clearly that IS the system. To see it, once having clicked on the link Jeno provided

http://www.jhsaudio.com/index.php

you need to scroll all the way down to the box in the lower right corner; there you will find a series of links to images of the system being built, at various stages, as well as finished. Even if you don't agree with the design, there's some clever DIY going on here.

From the JHS Audio web site:

Goto prototype system developed on request - 4/24/2010
I designed and fabricated the back loaded bass cabinets,
the high frequency driver stands, the aluminum stand
and wooden cradle for the mid frequency horn, a
high frequency driver alignment guide to ease setup as well
as developing a 4 way passive crossover for the system.
Drivers used are the SG-160, SG-370DX, SG-570, and SG-38WNS.

jd*



How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
07-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,623
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 98
Post ID: 16709
Reply to: 16706
Clever DIY going on where?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Even if you don't agree with the design, there's some clever DIY going on here.

Sorry, I did not now see any “clever DIY going on” in there. For sure he is a skilful, perhaps wonderful machinist and perhaps good carpenter but what it all has to do with audio? Yes, a number of design decisions that he took with this Goto prototype were very good, he deserves credit for that. However, in reality his good design decisions are good ONLY from the perspective that any other Goto system design decisions were too idiotic. The strictly vertical configuration and time alignment is not a “good design decisions” but an absolute norm without which a multichannel inhalation must be automatically discarded and faulty. So, if he complied with the very basic and very fundamental rules then might it be considered as “clever DIY going on”? If a person designed a car and did not run the gas line right above the muffler then can we consider it as a “good design decision” or it is just a very basic compliance with very rudimental common sense?

The most complicated task that do require creativity: engaging the upperbass horn, designing proper frame, gradual continuing of the horn’ size change, the elimination of horizontal surfaces, the subject of esthetics and many other  in fact were not handled but this Goto prototype. The guy built a playback, worked with crossovers but he kind of forgot to mention in his bit DIY site any single word about sound. I do not think he ever think about Sound and most likely for him Sound is what push his RTA that has no more objectives then juts a justification of DIY efforts.  It is not surprise that his measurement with RTA of the noise from his motorcycle creates in him as much excitement as output of his playback.
 
I said many time that I do not appreciate and do not respect 999.99% of all those DIY audio people. If this one is clever and know how to drink glue and then pee in the wood in order the glue to cure stronger then he would be a great addition to Home Depot’s freak-show but it has nothing to do with audio.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Page 5 of 5 (98 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3 4 5
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Problems with horns: upper bass ..  Must it be about loading?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     109  909528  03-25-2005
  »  New  45Hz Bass Horn..  Can We Ever be Saved From Ourselves?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     23  249032  09-19-2006
  »  New  About cost of electromagnetic drivers...  About cost of electromagnetic drivers....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  17866  07-08-2007
  »  New  Jessie Dazzle Project..  Will this better to be auditable?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     172  1214693  08-03-2007
  »  New  Experience Music Horn Installation @ VSAC..  RCA MI-1428B vs Vitavox S2...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     25  201731  05-27-2008
  »  New  ... again on GOTO Unit drivers.....  GOTO get time-aligned help.... Eventualy!!!...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     107  858143  08-16-2008
  »  New  8" Goto Woofer for 60Hz Horn..  It's not a Goto 8in driver...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  65433  11-03-2008
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  1604581  07-26-2009
  »  New  Why GOTO do not care about time-alignment...  Sarcasm isn't my cup of tea...  Audio News Forum     7  43331  09-22-2009
  »  New  Audio-tekne's "Tone Quality Improvement technique&..  Crooked glasses...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     9  61500  10-10-2009
  »  New  The 5-ways from Germany...  Another Kid?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     38  147059  12-06-2009
  »  New  New show in US, some new horns.....  Horns are like a drunk driver…...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  33556  02-08-2011
  »  New  A new kid in the block: Sadurni Acoustics..  Axpona 2015...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     21  91691  08-22-2011
  »  New  The 5-ways from Germany...  Another Kid?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     38  147059  12-06-2009
  »  New  Another time aligned 5-way horn project..  Thread moved...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     189  478533  08-12-2015
  »  New  The Kato-san's Goto system..  Brilliant...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     10  20594  05-23-2017
Home Page  |  Last 24Hours  | Search  |  SiteMap  | Questions or Problems | Copyright Note
The content of all messages within the Forums Copyright © by authors of the posts