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  »  New  45Hz Bass Horn..  Can We Ever be Saved From Ourselves?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     23  234088  09-19-2006
  »  New  8" Goto Woofer for 60Hz Horn..  It's not a Goto 8in driver...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  60326  11-03-2008
  »  New  The Macondo’s Upper Bass Channel: what is next?..  Görlich again...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     30  193697  10-28-2007
  »  New  Jessie Dazzle Project..  Will this better to be auditable?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     172  1117051  08-03-2007
  »  New  Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..  Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     478  1855773  03-28-2010
  »  New  Problems with horns: upper bass ..  Must it be about loading?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     109  849169  03-25-2005
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  1488339  07-26-2009
  »  New  Macondo’s lowest channel...  Good highs...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     148  940008  09-15-2010
  »  New  Practical Guide for Back Chambers Tuning...  Back chamber’s cost-benefit....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  50303  10-21-2006
  »  New  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ..  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  12281  10-08-2010
  »  New  Midbass impedance bumps -- why and what to do?..  You need to stop deceive yourself....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     18  133959  10-21-2010
  »  New  Mystery of bass horn calibration: Radiating Surface Dee..  Mystery of bass horn calibration: Radiating Surface Dee...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  11605  02-03-2011
  »  New  Impulse response, short notes and midbass horns...  A possible solution to better impulse?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  84234  06-13-2011
10-11-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,534
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 421
Post ID: 17133
Reply to: 13597
The midbass channel. A year later.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Today is an anniversary as my midbass channel was completed, installed and finished. The horns still did not collapse my house. Below is the picture before and is it is today.


The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-13-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,534
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 422
Post ID: 17521
Reply to: 17133
To hear my midbass horn?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Today a guy I know from south coming to my listening room to hear my payback. He is mingling with horns, he heard my installation in city and he is very much interested to hear my new listening room and the most important my new midbass horn. He actually said exactly like this: “I want to hear how your midbass horn will sound.”

Oh, boy the poor guy will be so disappointed!!! I recognize as a greatest accomplishment in my listening room that my large midbass horns are not only invisible but also unauditable. I never seen midbass configured and calibrated as in my room and my visitor who is looking for Sound of Midbass Horns might be very much at lost.

Still, as music call upon the horn will do what they need to do but they will never go over what they need to do. This is one of the reasons why the thread is called “Macondo’s Midbass Project – the grown up time”.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-11-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,534
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 423
Post ID: 17944
Reply to: 13597
Macondo Bruckner Midbass horns.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I spoke recently with a friend of my and was trying to describe the sound of my midbass horns. I said that if Wagner was able to have his custom Bayreuth Tubas then why I am not able to have my Bruckner Midbass horns. I kind of like the metaphor that I crate as the sound of my Midbass horns, the way how they integrated in my playback and the hay how I use them in my view makes them very beneficial to play Bruckner-like music. For somebody who did hear my Bruckner Midbass horns it would be very difficult to understand it. Even if you did hear them than you need to understand and recognize how different configurations of my Bruckner Midbass horns impact the rest of presentation in my room. I did not demonstrate it to anybody and to my knowledge very few people understand what is being dealt in this. So, I do not think that I will find understanding, nor I looking for any understanding. Still, I would like to rename my Macondo Midbass horns into Bruckner Horns. The definition would be the following: the Bruckner Horns in playback is unique musical instrument of playback that no one understands out there but that does what is necessary to play Bruckner. The definition is perfect. So, from now the Bruckner Horns is requested trademark of Macondo Playback. Hopefully it will piss of a lot of typical hi-fi people out there who have no idea what this post was all about.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-11-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
mats
Chicago
Posts 76
Joined on 09-18-2005

Post #: 424
Post ID: 17945
Reply to: 17944
Mahler sound
fiogf49gjkf0d
I am not laughing.  Just the other day I had the upper bass a little extra prominent, and midrange was gently tapering off into the highs.  
Some would say it was rolled off and flat, but when I played two Mahler 1's and the 9th, I enjoyed him like never before.  
Nothing else sounded very good.  Bruckner sounded still abrasive, but the Mahler, it had a real horn sound, even the violins sounded like horns at times.  
Simon Rattle with the Berlin from a Berlin FM broadcast 2010.08.27 , Symphony No. 1, wow!  
I really think the upper bass implementation must be flexible, depending on recording and composer.  
Plus 3-5 dB for Mahler, more for Bruckner?  Actually it is probably not loudness so much as volume of foundation.
Perhaps we can get back to the Upper Bass thread in a more general sense than Harlanov's no doubt interesting cushion of bass observations.


Mats
03-11-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,534
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 425
Post ID: 17946
Reply to: 17945
Default properly balanced sound.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 mats wrote:
I really think the upper bass implementation must be flexible, depending on recording and composer.  
Plus 3-5 dB for Mahler, more for Bruckner?  Actually it is probably not loudness so much as volume of foundation.
It was what I was thinking a few years back. Nowadays the idea of flexible setting of independent channels, including the flexible ULF does not appeal to me and strike me as wrong. I perfectly recognize the reasons for flexible setting still even having this options I do not do any ajustemnt. In my view a playback balance needs to be set for one “proper” setting. It is hard to explain what “proper” is but it is very easy to demonstrate. If a playback is in “proper” channel balance setting then no matter what recording is played and no matter what the deficiency of recording is the playback still shall present the result that would not encourage modifying anything. I know, it does not make any sense for people. They feel that if a recording has shy lower bass or not enough lower MF then it might be compensated somehow by re-balancing playback channels. A big mistake. Playback need to be set to deliver a default properly balanced sound.
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-12-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
mats
Chicago
Posts 76
Joined on 09-18-2005

Post #: 426
Post ID: 17947
Reply to: 17946
Will horns make the difference?
fiogf49gjkf0d

You are right about not compensating for recordings. Seems we've had this discussion before.  So many variables.  
Sealed box, horns, crossover slopes, and points, drivers and their various qualities, 
how low does the midrange horn go, how much midrange weight do I have to get from the upper bass.  
I will leave my system on the good "Mahler-balance" tuning for now, and dream of 70 hz front horns! 


Mats
03-12-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 427
Post ID: 17950
Reply to: 17946
Music halls and recording venues low-end bloom and reproducing it at home
fiogf49gjkf0d
My five cents, folks... find nothing wrong in a flexible ULF, as it, sort-of, makes honour to any audio system and music and audio lover, as this "flexibility" strongly reminds me to various music and concert halls and venues around, where their "personality" is GREATLY supporting and enhancing music, from orchestral to solo lute and viceversa.

What would be Gregorian music without an old church or Strauss without Musikverein or Wagner without Sofiensaal, both in Wien?

Call it ULF, low-end or - poetically - "bloom", it gives character to any music and it's NEVER the same... every orchestra and hall, and to a larger extent, recording, should sound different... if any given system isn't able to "change" and follow and serve different music personalities, it's a flawed system whose own personality is stronger than its transparency and humble strength in bowing to music and recording own personalities.

On my part, I'm currently playing with my TVCs active crossover, and like when I was playing and fiddling with TacT's RCS 2.2 XP, where I had seven pre-sets, NOT an equalizer, BUT nonetheless obtaining different low-ends and highs curves, only to better tailor music to more satisfying final result and to my wishes and musical tastes.

I don't believe a complex system should not be able to be finely tuned to different musics through (carefully performed with skill) proper technical means, whatever: my beloved lute, as the most polyphonic of solo instruments, when properly reproduced, blooms in a seldom heard way... something audible also to any distract, occasional listener... and on and on, same as a large orchestra. 


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
12-04-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,534
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 428
Post ID: 18794
Reply to: 13597
Surprising and Interesting development …
fiogf49gjkf0d

A few days back an audio guy from Mexico-city visited me from. We did listen some music, talk a bit about audio. As usually I interrogated him about the problem he hears in my sound. The people who were in my room know that I do it with absolutely anybody and I am very disappointed if my visitors not able to criticize what they hear. As I asked my guy about critiques of my playback sound he suggested that he feel that somewhere in midbass the sound become heavy and does not decay as fast as he would like it to be. I know that it is absolutely imposable in my playback and the proper balance of sound across the whole range is my very much signature source of pride. Regardless what kind music is being played, regardless of volume and anything else imaginable my playback maintain is very high integrity and to have those kindergarten mistakes with crossovers, decays, under or over performing specific segment of range is absolutely imposable in my installation. So, using my “authority” opinion (wink-wink) I begin to convince my guest that he is wrong and if he is hearing something is it is just result of his corrupted perception.

Last night I got home early and Amy was staying overnight in Portsmouth. I kind of semi-persuaded her to stay in New Hampshire as I would like to have some “audio quality” time on my own. Since we redid hardwood floors 3 month back in listening room I just reassembled the playback as it use to be but I never invested any time for critical listening. I played playback all time but I did not do that fine sonic equilibristic that I use to do in past. A few day back I was visited my local audio friend  and it gave me an inspiration to experiment with audio again:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=18791#18791

So, as Amy was out I decided to dedicate evening for fine moving of Macondo across the new floors, fine position it and perhaps to begin looking for the DPoLF.  I did move horn a bit and I was able to get much more interesting imaging with the new floors and with new areal rags. However, as I sat to listen in sweat spot and turned not my typical Bruckner-like music, life recording in large churches but rather well regulated and calibrated by my hearing reference trucks that I know for years I instantly felt that something was wrong. To my fear and shame I recognized that my Mexican visitor was absolutely spot on – it was some kind of strange fattiness in midbass region. I felt like an idiot, not because the playback has developed some kind of problem (it might always happen and particularly with the multiamping topology I use) but because my over-confidence made me completely discard those very lucid and very accurate comments of my visitor.

Anyhow, now is an interesting technical question: what happened? At this point I have no idea. I check the Macondo calibration in accordance with my “Macondo calibration check sheet”:

 http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=14994

Everything was perfect. Sonically it sounded as midbass horn are the problem but in my “Macondo calibration check sheet” I specified only way to drive the horns not the way to measure the horns output. So, I took a dBa muter and plunged it to the Milq’s bass channel output. The left channel has 7dB more output them right channel (!!!). Holly shit, how THAT might happens. Milq’s bass channel is DSET and there is absolutely no way SET suddenly will give over 2 times more gain.  Perhaps something freaky happen with the crossover for left midbass. The Midbass crossover in my estimation is impossible to go down. Take a look for this second order:

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=14666

In addition I have one more order on speaker level – a huge toroidal air-core coil in series with the drivers – they also can’t go down. So, now I need to bring RTA back to the room and begin to sweep the midbass also with the rest of the system, find the problem and recalibrate the left midbass. I did measure the DCR of the driver’s voice coils and it looks that it was not the driver problems. I truly have no idea what it is and I hoped that I would not do it ever again in my listening room. Well, never say nether as they said and never to be too confident with multiamping…

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-27-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,534
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 429
Post ID: 18841
Reply to: 13597
What could I say?
fiogf49gjkf0d
I was wondering what would I say or do with my house-build in horns if I move from this home? No, no not, the horror of married life that audio people love to tell to each other are very much not applied to me. There is no problem with computability between my new wife and my audio, instead we call it our audio and use it happily together. I kind of feel very horny what Amy turns Milqs, the ULF on and play the whole playback. Still, there are some very distant conversations about the school districts, the size of closets, the number of bathrooms, the social environment, commute distance and the rest things that comes with married territory. It is NOT oppressive and NOTurgent at all and if the subject rises then I see it in 5-7 years.

Nevertheless, if the subject does hit our horizon I will have a LOT of fun to envision what I would do with my current room setup. I love the room immensely but if I move out then the Midbass horns for sure will be left behind. So, what would I explain to the new home owners about the purpose of our Midbass horns?

The current leading ideas are following:
1)   Ventilation shafts for central AC
2)   Gest room for our gardener
3)   Storage closet
4)   A location to hide moonshine machine
5)   A location to store winter pickling
6)   A devise to punish kids

Does anybody has any more intelligent idea?

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-27-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 241
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #: 430
Post ID: 18842
Reply to: 18841
Dissonant use
fiogf49gjkf0d
A burglar alarm?
12-31-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 142
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 431
Post ID: 18845
Reply to: 18841
Sell "as is"
fiogf49gjkf0d
why not use this to your advantage as a selling  point. "One of few in world" "built-in vintage horn speakers"
load with fullrange/co-axial drivers and fire up the sound for buyers. I think they will like that.
01-02-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 158
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 432
Post ID: 18846
Reply to: 18845
There won't be a need for it
fiogf49gjkf0d
Those who publicly hate you the most will line up to buy the house the same way they buy Lamm amps with plastic speaker posts
and Vitavox drivers , don't forget to leave the antenna mast and as many artifacts as you can ,down to  Koshka poop, hehehe

Many , many happy moments for you and Amy in this and the next 50 years together !!!
Best Regards, W
01-02-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rickmcinnis
Posts 27
Joined on 10-18-2010

Post #: 433
Post ID: 18847
Reply to: 18846
Congratulations
fiogf49gjkf0d
I learned of the union from the posts sent to my email box.  Sorry to have to admit I have been lackadaisical about checking in.  You had not been posting much the months previous and now I understand why.

Wrote a note to Clark and he confirmed to me that it was true.

The fact that she enjoys music is not a surprise.  I cannot imagine you giving up that.

I thought I had detected a change in the infamous gruff mask you enjoy wearing.  The man behind the mask is a fine fellow when he wants to betray that public persona.

I would bet there is someone in the Boston area who would want the house as is.  Whether they "hate" you or not.  Surely there are enough people interested in audio in the area that the horns would be an attraction.  I know it would be to me but I am 1100 miles away.  Of course, you might be required to help them assemble a system to go with what is already there.  I would bet if they were interested in the horns they would probably want to follow your examples of "how it is done". 

I can imagine the pain it would cause you when the potential buyer brings over AEROSMITH cd's.  Oy, ve ...

After all of the work you put in this room/house it is sad to think you might have to begin again.  How many times do you think you can do that?  Then again you might already have a grander scheme in mind ...

Take care,
01-02-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,534
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 434
Post ID: 18848
Reply to: 18847
A grander scheme in mind…
fiogf49gjkf0d

 rickmcinnis wrote:
I learned of the union from the posts sent to my email box.  Sorry to have to admit I have been lackadaisical about checking in.  You had not been posting much the months previous and now I understand why.

Wrote a note to Clark and he confirmed to me that it was true.

The fact that she enjoys music is not a surprise.  I cannot imagine you giving up that.

I thought I had detected a change in the infamous gruff mask you enjoy wearing.  The man behind the mask is a fine fellow when he wants to betray that public persona.

I would bet there is someone in the Boston area who would want the house as is.  Whether they "hate" you or not.  Surely there are enough people interested in audio in the area that the horns would be an attraction.  I know it would be to me but I am 1100 miles away.  Of course, you might be required to help them assemble a system to go with what is already there.  I would bet if they were interested in the horns they would probably want to follow your examples of "how it is done". 

I can imagine the pain it would cause you when the potential buyer brings over AEROSMITH cd's.  Oy, ve ...

After all of the work you put in this room/house it is sad to think you might have to begin again.  How many times do you think you can do that?  Then again you might already have a grander scheme in mind ...

Hey, Rick

The relation between Amy’s charm and prolificness of my output to my audio site is an interesting subject and it is something that I have been trying to express for a while in a dedicated thread that is brewing in my computer. For sure there is SOME relation between it but not as straight as it appears at superficial surface.  I will be taking about it more what I feel so.

The idea do dump the house on the laps of another audio guy why would appreciate HOW this listening room is organized is a super sweet idea but it think it is unfortunately too much in the realms of fantasy. In the realms if absolute fantasy would be to sell the house with Macondo/Melquides installed, charging a good chunk of money for it.  I did told to Amy that I need drop for her a few contact points that help her to sell my equipment in case of my sudden death as for right people the context of my entire installation would be a good down payment for a new house and free annual Costco supply for new 10 years of her and her new men.

There is behind all of it much more interesting question. One might see in my desire to sell Macondo/Melquides along with the house (if we move) as a subconsciousness expression of my dissatisfaction with audio.  The reality is different. If we do move then I do envision us to have very much similar listening room as we have now. The hypothetic organization of the room is a very interesting subject and it might be beneficial to start from a white sheet of paper.

I doubt that in a new place I would invest as much efforts as I invested in accommodation of Macondo/Melquides here. But again… who knows. I do not think that in 10 years you will see me watching 30” TV with single driver speaker. Still, Macondo/Melquides is an ultimate expression that I found that represents 1990s and 2000s. It is good 15 years past and it is very possible that I will find new audio expressive forms. I do sometimes think what kind forms they might be. Sometimes, I might share my thoughts if I feel so.

Nevertheless, the whole notion of moving for us is not more than a metal exercise at my web site. I do think that we will be here for at least 7-10 years, so I will be a able to observe the rotting of my midbass horns at attic…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-03-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rickmcinnis
Posts 27
Joined on 10-18-2010

Post #: 435
Post ID: 18849
Reply to: 18848
The mind boggles ...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Since I am living with the assumption that the technology you have used is far from dated I have cannot wait to hear what you have in mind for your audio future.

Since my selfish nature longs to hear what you have acheived, assuming you would allow me to hear the system in its somewhat final state; adjustments being a constant, I might have a chance when I can finagle an excuse to make my way to Boston again.

I doubt those horns are going to rot, not with your standards for construction.

I know you hate gushing and I suffer from the disease when I am in awe of someone (I can hear you laughing at me) but I am sure Amy is quite an extraordinary woman and I hope I get to meet her one of these days.

I am not complaining about the number of posts.  I am glad you have found an even more important system to tweak, your relationship with Amy.  Hearing you speak of school systems made me smile.  Some young Besnow's would be good for the world in my unhumble opinion.

It never occurred to me that you would sell the WHOLE THING with the house.  Maybe there are a few folks in the Boston area that would take a page from the legend of the Japanese audiophile who built a house for his system.  It is possible someone would buy the house JUST FOR THE SYSTEM and leave it as a separate listening house,  Some of us can have dedicated rooms there are few who can have whole houses for this absurd, but noble, hobby, but they are out there!

One should always be disatisfied with audio.  How can we proceed when satisfaction stifles our imagination?  I am without a working system at the moment. In the midst of quite a few projects.  It is funny how much pleasure I can derive from just listening to a table radio in my kitchen.  One thing I have found is that I am (since I do not have any choice) far more adventurous in my listening to this kitchen radio.  Since I have the rock affliction I find it interesting that I listen to orchestral music on the radio, not that I listen to rock exclusively.  Could it be (yes, I am sure it is) that with the radio one does not bother comparing it to a real orchestra you just listen to the music.  Of course, you are hearing only the surface of the music - not a chance of "inner detail", etc. - but most of the point of it comes across, amazingly. 

Is this what you are getting at with your dissatisfaction?   With great music with complicated textures (your beloved Bruckner and Mahler, expecially) even systems at a high level are hinting at the sound of an orchestra and we chase after incremental improvement only to find that we still have a long way to go?  Kind of like the old saw, "the more you know you the more you find you don't know".

With pop records there is no standard and we can relax, well, those of us who enjoy that kind of thing.

Hope the new year is good to you and Amy.
Take care,
01-03-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,534
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 436
Post ID: 18850
Reply to: 18849
Audio as an interactive subject.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 rickmcinnis wrote:
It is possible someone would buy the house JUST FOR THE SYSTEM and leave it as a separate listening house…

Yes, that would be very gratifying for sure and my ego will be dramatically enlarged but in reality we all know that it never happens. Also, the only unmovable elements of my playback are midbass horns, so I rather would like to have someone who recognizes the midbass horns as positive addition to the house. I might pull the trick with sound reinforce the piano in the room and if a perspective buyer is musician then it will be certainly be very imprecise for them to learn and to consider. First I need to learn how to reinforce piano with playback however.  Nevertheless, sine we nowhere near or any real-estate projects I think all that is no more than strategic sinking.
 rickmcinnis wrote:
One should always be disatisfied with audio… 
Yes and no. Dissatisfaction with audio needed to be understood from a proper perspective. I have no dissatisfaction with audio as object but I do not like audio as an interactive subject. I have this dissatisfaction for many years. Audio, as I perceive it, is very personal and very individualistic mater and extremely happy with what it does in my life. What could be better than on X-mass days sit in our listening room with Amy, watch the 8” snow developing in the forest behind the window and to listen the fist pressing of Bernstein taking NY philharmonic on the ride across Mahler 4’s sleigh… The audio as interactive subject is totally different thing. I have absolutely no interest to explain to majority audio idiots what to buy, what not to buy what to do, what not to do, defend what I do from moronic public attacks.  This gives me no personal or professional gratification of any king. Unfortunately very view audio people are able engage the subject at the level that would be interested and therefore I mostly have no interest to deal with audio people. It might for external observer looks like a “dissatisfaction with audio” but in reality it is just my desire to protect what I value from stupid pop-consumption and uninformed scrutiny.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-09-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 437
Post ID: 18865
Reply to: 18850
Selling argument
fiogf49gjkf0d
There are MANY people who would see built-in bass horns as a plus, but 99% of them will toast the Vitavox drivers at day one.
06-02-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,534
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 438
Post ID: 19419
Reply to: 17133
Midbass horns, latest story.
fiogf49gjkf0d
A few months back a audio guy visited me and after a listening session I asked him if he can report any problems with sound. He reported that he hears a slightly more prolonging decay at upper bass then what he suspect to be. I knew about this effect but I felt that it was in very minor scale. As the larger picture I have observe this effect many times, for instance here.

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=16461

… where effect was part of a larger picture.

It did not bother me so much as with my type of music I feel that slight longer decay at upperbass helps to get an illusion of larger concerts halls, never bad, isn’t it? The effect was very minor and in my view negligible.

As time goes by I observed that the effect was growing and growing and last 2-3 month it become some kind of almost a conspicuous boomines at upper bass… I tested many times all calibration and filtration and I am very confident that the amps, filters and driver are operating where they shall be. It is not too unpleasant but notably. I was not in a rash to fix it, not to mention that I have no idea what to fix. I was not in a rash as nowadays I turn my large playback  only to blast my Bruckner at full power and the rest I tend to play on Pilot playback – it is summer and it is hot.

Two week or so a local audio guy visited me, listened my playback and insisted that the problem that he hears I did not have it before. This was quantifiable evidence that something is objectively wrong. I knew it but I was not willing to knowledge it as there is no explanation for it.

I spend whole nigh trying to figure out, listening, experimenting. I discover that if I go for third order filter on Midbass then I get appropriate sound but I do not understand why after two year of operation the midbass horns started to sound more extended to higher knee. The softening of the suspension and even paper would not be responsible for it as not primary resonance slid away but HF extension. I did short my 18mF coil with 100uF electrolytic and I get the OK sound but still I need some explanation.

The leading idea is ugly and I hope it is not true. The idea is the drivers in midbass hors get demagnetized and this lead to HF extension. Usually as the LF drivers demagnetized then we lose definition in lower knee. It does not feel that it happens. However, perhaps as the driver is locked in back chamber then it is not so obvious that it lost the magnetic force. I do not know and I never heard the fully charged and then discharged Alnico driver in properly operating horns. The whole presumption is ugly as I do not see myself removing the driver from horns and send them out to recharge each 2 years. Perhaps I needed to put the magnet charging wire in the back chamber and recharge them right there in attic? Well, if I go for this then I need to be sure that it WAS the problem. 

Rgs,
Romy the Cagt


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-02-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,143
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 439
Post ID: 19421
Reply to: 19419
Magnet Discharge and/or Chemical Warfare
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, it is rare for Alinco magnets to drop a charge "just like that", although time and/or physical shocks can diminish the magnetism considerably.  If you happen to know how much charge your drivers started out with, then you already know more than 99.99% of audio people.  Knowing this, you might be able to determine how far gone the charge is now, although finding out the reasons for the "sudden" discharge is another matter.  Whatever the reasons for any discharge, at some point the charge gets too low for proper driver operation.

I also wonder if there have been changes in the foam (or whatever) in the chambers that house the drivers?  I do know that some caulks, foams, and glues are chemically "incompatible", which can lead to degradation over time.  This might cause shrinkage, hardening, leak(s), or ???, and who knows what the sonic results of any of this might be?

Best regards,
Paul S
06-02-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 440
Post ID: 19422
Reply to: 19419
Simulated suspension evolution
fiogf49gjkf0d
Give yourself time and let your unconscious work on it; you might have overlooked a cause originating in the electronics.

Romy wrote: "...The softening of the suspension and even paper would not be responsible for it as not primary resonance slid away but HF extension..."

I seem to remember that you fitted "new old stock" AK drivers... It's totally counter-intuitive but is it possible that the suspension has become stiffer with time? No, but is there something else that might simulate such a condition? Yes... A stiffening of the back chamber foam as Paul suggested... If that were the case, assuming you used the same foam in both these and your upper-bass horns, then logically you would have a similar issue with the smaller, older horns. If so, it may not be audible in the smaller horns or may have resulted in an improvement.

If this is what's happening with your mid-bass horns, you may be able to correct the issue by increasing rear chamber volume (digging out some foam).

Perhaps I needed to put the magnet charging wire in the back chamber and recharge them right there in attic? 

Are you imagining wrapping the magnets with coils? 
I was told by a guy who offered to remagnetize mine via a large remagnetizing "apparatus", that it is quite a violent process and requires removal of the membranes to prevent their destruction. I have not yet done it. I assume what you are proposing is a more gradual charge.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
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