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10-15-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 21
Post ID: 5624
Reply to: 5623
The digital anal-retentivism...
 peter foster wrote:
The TU-X1 sounds to me as though there is a dolby processing happening even when the dolby feature is off.
You might check if your country decoding switch is not in a wrong setting. It located at the very top of the unit and it regulates the difference between the American vs. European pre/de-emphasis (I believe 75uS vs. 30uS). If your station broadcasts a good signal (a big question always) then a wrong position of the switch leads to the defect that you descried.
 peter foster wrote:
You make some very interesting comments about stereo and distance…
Yes, I know…. :-)
 peter foster wrote:
I am familiar with the Lavry dither algorithms on my Lavry Blue 4496, such as Acoustic Bit Correction, ABC-1 and ABC-2. It is a 2 channel microphone preamplifier, clock and 2 channel analog to digital converter. There are a number of dither choices on the Lavry and a number on the K-Stereo. Their dither algorithms are different and good results can be achieved using either machine. The best results, for me, are achieved by recording on the Lavry Blue in 24/88.2 or 24/96 on the Lavry Blue, then performing no dither within the Lavry Blue and passing the bits to the K-Stereo and only performing dither as the last step prior to conversion to analog output. Note that the Lavry Blue (and Gold) also have a feature for massaging clipping that adds its own puss, as you might say.
BTW, did you pay attention that the subjective of dithers, Acoustic Bit Correction, and other toys are also quite dependant from the types of amplification being used. After-dithered signal has a lot of low level HF noise, and it is very important how stable amplification can deal with it. Usually the less feedback in amp the less they should be sensitive to it. Pacific Microsonics do even more obnoxious – they supplement the processor with EXTERNAL low-pass filters that they propose to put on the cables….
 peter foster wrote:
The link that that I sent in my previous post contains original and processed samples of the WEISS DNA1 machine … They are at the bottom of that web page. They might help you to form an opinion of destruction or not of the music of ambience recovery.
Yes, and I wish I had a functional stereo playback to play it outside of headphones … :-(
 peter foster wrote:
Regarding destruction with DSP, this is a typical risk/benefit analysis. Is the result a net gain or a net result, that is the question. For example, in converting my vinyl collection to digital I soon stopped performing noise reduction because too much music was lost. So I live with the vinyl noise on my vinyl to digital conversions. But then I have not used the WEISS noise reduction machine so maybe that would have been a solution. Also, your Pacific Microsonics machine and your Lavry Gold machines are DSP machines too, so the results can be very good using a quality implementation in a correct way.
Yes, it is a big subject itself. I have no qualification to discuss it credibly but it looks that not all DSP are create equal. The A/D, D/A and delays of any kind is not a problem. The problem looks like begin to take place when DSP begin to change volume (crossover). Whatever I record I try do nothing to files. I do hear as change of .5dB of gain in Wavelab affects sound. BTW, Wavelab has horrible rate and resolution conversion engine (Wavelab-5 was a complete disaster, the Wavelab-6 is much better but not good as well). The Pacific Microsonics it turned out to be a phenomenal 88/24 to 44/16 converter but even with Pacific’s filers I do hear some TTH variations. Do you know that there are some people (and I do understand them) who in order to convert from 96/24 to 44/16 do DA/ and then A/D processing and the feel that it less damaging then activation of DSP engine?

Rgs, Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-15-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
peter foster
Australia
Posts 40
Joined on 02-16-2006

Post #: 22
Post ID: 5625
Reply to: 5624
Stereo, distance, a single open door and outside
Dear Romy,

So, when I crank up the volume in my study on my stereo system, open the wide sliding door (say 5 feet by 8 feet) and walk outside (say 20 yards which to me is my favorite place to listen), is my study with the open door performing as a pseudo horn and am I now listening to mono?

Regards, Peter Foster.
10-15-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 23
Post ID: 5628
Reply to: 5625
It is imposable to tell “long distance”.
Peter,

I do not believe that it is possible to talks about what happens with speakers in specific acoustic environment. I do not believe in any acoustic modeling or in any rules - each case is different and each case requires own empirical approach.  Something might happen in your room when you listen you stereo from another room but no one besides you will figure out what it was.

The problems with Stereo? This is a different subject. Very briefly: the concept was inverted in 19 century and practically implemented in 20s-30w. At that time there was no home audio and audio application were used only for theaters sound reinforcement, that has different task, objectives and methods  then home audio….

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 24
Post ID: 5798
Reply to: 5622
The Injection Channel as Ambience faking tool?
 Romy the Cat wrote:
It is kind of suspiring that Mr. Katz was able to patent it as the notion of “kinky” channel-crossfeeding in order to make stereo to simulate the true binaural recordings are very old and used by headphone people for year and years.
Hm, while I was playing today my playback driven by different amps:

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=5797

and since I have no extra amps to drive my Injection Channel an idea came to me. How about to cross the Injection Channels? Will it do a mimic of Ambience Recovery? The Injection Channel is ~ 12dB-9sB down… very-very interesting direction… This is what I would need a smart delay machine, preferably with a phases randomanization…

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-05-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
peter foster
Australia
Posts 40
Joined on 02-16-2006

Post #: 25
Post ID: 5806
Reply to: 5545
K-Stereo Playlists - K+06.0 vs BYPASS

Dear Romy,  the playlists as requested.  Regards, Peter Foster.

---

Playlist 06; Song 01.
Track 1; 17:27.
Serge Koussevitzky, Boston Symphony Orchestra.
Tchaikovsky, Symphony No 4 in F Minor, Opus 36.
RCA Victor LM 1008; Recorded 1949.
LP -> Turtle Beach Santa Cruz Crystal ADC -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz (many years ago) -> K-Stereo K-LEVEL K +06.0; WIDE + DEEP ON; DITHER 16 POWr3 44.1 kHz -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Playlist 06; Song 02.
Track 2; 17:26.
Serge Koussevitzky, Boston Symphony Orchestra.
Tchaikovsky, Symphony No 4 in F Minor, Opus 36.
RCA Victor LM 1008; Recorded 1949.
LP -> Turtle Beach Santa Cruz Crystal ADC -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz (many years ago) -> K-Stereo BYPASS -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Playlist 06; Song 03.
Track 3; 18:46.
Evgeny Mravinsky, Leningrad Philharmonic Orchestra.
Tschaikowsky, Symphonie Nr. 4 f-moll (in F minor) op. 36.
Deutsche Grammophon 00289 477 5911; Recorded 1960.
RedBook CD 16 bits 44.1 kHz -> K-Stereo K-LEVEL K +06.0; WIDE + DEEP ON; DITHER 16 POWr3 44.1 kHz -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Playlist 07; Song 01.
Track 4; 18:46.
Evgeny Mravinsky, Leningrad Philharmonic Orchestra.
Tschaikowsky, Symphonie Nr. 4 f-moll (in F minor) op. 36.
Deutsche Grammophon 00289 477 5911; Recorded 1960.
RedBook CD 16 bits 44.1 kHz -> K-Stereo BYPASS -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Playlist 07; Song 02.
Track 5; 17:18.
Paper Hat, Nine Conversations.
Rufus Records RF067; Recorded 2006.
RedBook CD 16 bits 44.1 kHz -> K-Stereo K-LEVEL K +06.0; SMALL + DEEP ON; DITHER 16 POWr3 44.1 kHz -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Playlist 07; Song 03.
Track 6; 17:16.
Paper Hat, Nine Conversations.
Rufus Records RF067; Recorded 2006.
RedBook CD 16 bits 44.1 kHz -> K-Stereo BYPASS -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Playlist 07; Song 04.
Track 7; 7:24.
Monty Alexander, Love And Sunshine.
MPS Records 20 22620-4; Recorded 1974.
LP -> Turtle Beach Santa Cruz Crystal ADC -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz (many years ago) -> K-Stereo K-LEVEL K +06.0; SMALL + DEEP ON; DITHER 16 POWr3 44.1 kHz -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Playlist 08; Song 01.
Track 8; 7:24.
Monty Alexander, Love And Sunshine.
MPS Records 20 22620-4; Recorded 1974.
LP -> Turtle Beach Santa Cruz Crystal ADC -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz (many years ago) -> K-Stereo BYPASS -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Playlist 08; Song 02.
Track 9; 6:28.
Bill Evans, Waltz For Debby.
Giants Of Jazz CD 53371; Recorded 1972.
RedBook CD 16 bits 44.1 kHz -> K-Stereo K-LEVEL K +06.0; SMALL + DEEP ON; DITHER 16 POWr3 44.1 kHz -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Playlist 08; Song 03.
Track 10; 6:30.
Bill Evans, Waltz For Debby.
Giants Of Jazz CD 53371; Recorded 1972.
RedBook CD 16 bits 44.1 kHz -> K-Stereo BYPASS -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Playlist 08; Song 04.
Track 11; 4:01.
Paul Horn & Billy Bean, Flute Cocktail.
Brunswick 10152 EPB; Recorded 1958.
EP -> Turtle Beach Santa Cruz Crystal ADC -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz (many years ago) -> K-Stereo K-LEVEL K +06.0; SMALL + DEEP ON; DITHER 16 POWr3 44.1 kHz -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Playlist 08; Song 05.
Track 12; 4:01.
Paul Horn & Billy Bean, Flute Cocktail.
Brunswick 10152 EPB; Recorded 1958.
EP -> Turtle Beach Santa Cruz Crystal ADC -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz (many years ago) -> K-Stereo BYPASS -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Playlist 08; Song 06.
Track 13; 4:51.
Louis Stewart, Louis The First.
Hawk Jazz SHALP147; Recorded 1975.
LP -> Turtle Beach Santa Cruz Crystal ADC -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz (many years ago) -> K-Stereo K-LEVEL K +06.0; SMALL + DEEP ON; DITHER 16 POWr3 44.1 kHz -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Playlist 08; Song 07.
Track 14; 4:51.
Louis Stewart, Louis The First.
Hawk Jazz SHALP147; Recorded 1975.
LP -> Turtle Beach Santa Cruz Crystal ADC -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz (many years ago) -> K-Stereo BYPASS -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Playlist 08; Song 08.
Track 15; 3:15.
Blossom Dearie, Blossom Dearie.
Verve 837 934-2; Recorded 1959.
RedBook CD 16 bits 44.1 kHz -> K-Stereo K-LEVEL K +06.0; SMALL + DEEP ON; DITHER 16 POWr3 44.1 kHz -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Playlist 08; Song 09.
Track 16; 3:15.
Blossom Dearie, Blossom Dearie.
Verve 837 934-2; Recorded 1959.
RedBook CD 16 bits 44.1 kHz -> K-Stereo BYPASS -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Playlist 08; Song 10.
Track 17; 4:06.
Johnny Pisano & Billy Bean, Take Your Pick.
Decca Records DL 9212; Recorded 1958.
LP -> Turtle Beach Santa Cruz Crystal ADC -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz (many years ago) -> K-Stereo K-LEVEL K +06.0; SMALL + DEEP ON; DITHER 16 POWr3 44.1 kHz -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Playlist 08; Song 11.
Track 18; 4:05.
Johnny Pisano & Billy Bean, Take Your Pick.
Decca Records DL 9212; Recorded 1958.
LP -> Turtle Beach Santa Cruz Crystal ADC -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz (many years ago) -> K-Stereo BYPASS -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Playlist 08; Song 12.
Track 19; 7:48.
Lisa Gerrard, Lisa Gerrard.
4AD CAD 2701CD; Recorded 1995.
RedBook CD 16 bits 44.1 kHz -> K-Stereo K-LEVEL K +06.0; WIDE + DEEP ON; DITHER 16 POWr3 44.1 kHz -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Playlist 08; Song 13.
Track 20; 7:46.
Lisa Gerrard, Lisa Gerrard.
4AD CAD 2701CD; Recorded 1995.
RedBook CD 16 bits 44.1 kHz -> K-Stereo BYPASS -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Playlist 09; Song 01.
Track 21; 5:35.
Annie Ross & Zoot Sims, A Gasser.
Toshiba-EMI TOCJ-9463; Recorded 1959.
RedBook CD 16 bits 44.1 kHz -> K-Stereo K-LEVEL K +06.0; SMALL + DEEP ON; DITHER 16 POWr3 44.1 kHz -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Playlist 09; Song 02.
Track 22; 5:35.
Annie Ross & Zoot Sims, A Gasser.
Toshiba-EMI TOCJ-9463; Recorded 1959.
RedBook CD 16 bits 44.1 kHz -> K-Stereo BYPASS -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

11-20-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 26
Post ID: 5903
Reply to: 5806
K-Stereo vs. not K-Stereo: some notes.

Eventually I spant last nigh 3 hours to listen the Peter’s K-Stereo processed CD’s and took some notes, Below are some real-time comments of this listening session.

Playlist 06; Song 01.
Track 1; 17:27.
Serge Koussevitzky, Boston Symphony Orchestra.
Tchaikovsky, Symphony No 4 in F Minor, Opus 36.
RCA Victor LM 1008; Recorded 1949.
LP -> Turtle Beach Santa Cruz Crystal ADC -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz (many years ago) -> K-Stereo K-LEVEL K +06.0; WIDE + DEEP ON; DITHER 16 POWr3 44.1 kHz -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

The source for the records was not particularly good. It has low pass filtering applied – something that should not be done for noise redaction. The sound generally is fine but I would like it to be a little bit more moisture and more sticky. It sounds more like orchestra play during summer day at heat of 100F.

Playlist 06; Song 02.
Track 2; 17:26.
Serge Koussevitzky, Boston Symphony Orchestra.
Tchaikovsky, Symphony No 4 in F Minor, Opus 36.
RCA Victor LM 1008; Recorded 1949.
LP -> Turtle Beach Santa Cruz Crystal ADC -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz (many years ago) -> K-Stereo BYPASS -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Sound is more compressed then previous track and much less colorful.  The shadows of the notes get eaten with adding some kind of grayness and genericism. The HF and some transients got eaten as well. The entire presentation more dull and way less impactful. The Mono Spot imaging more defused but I feel that it is related to loss of HF extension.

Playlist 06; Song 03.
Track 3; 18:46.
Evgeny Mravinsky, Leningrad Philharmonic Orchestra.
Tschaikowsky, Symphonie Nr. 4 f-moll (in F minor) op. 36.
Deutsche Grammophon 00289 477 5911; Recorded 1960.
RedBook CD 16 bits 44.1 kHz -> K-Stereo K-LEVEL K +06.0; WIDE + DEEP ON; DITHER 16 POWr3 44.1 kHz -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

It is not the finest recording but it is the way how they recorded it. There is a challenge in this track in lower bass – it should be better. The biggest problem however is that all orchestral instruments sound like the SAME instrument playing at different volume and at different frequency. Perhaps it my electricity today, I do not know. Still I do not like that Sound….

Playlist 07; Song 01.
Track 4; 18:46.
Evgeny Mravinsky, Leningrad Philharmonic Orchestra.
Tschaikowsky, Symphonie Nr. 4 f-moll (in F minor) op. 36.
Deutsche Grammophon 00289 477 5911; Recorded 1960.
RedBook CD 16 bits 44.1 kHz -> K-Stereo BYPASS -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

The first notes of coppers immediately indicate compression and striping of transients. Sound becomes lazier but slightly more organized I have to note. What however is very remorseful is that the presentation lost it’s positioning. The dimension of presentation is still there but now they are brutal “right-left”. If tonal event get propagated from first violins to trumpets-up or to cellos-down, which Mravinsky uselessly stick at extreme right, then it should be very gently cared out by clarinets, oboes and bassoons. They are uselessly in the middle right in front of conductor, slightly behind. The way how Macondo is configures is that it should properly present that special curvature and horizontal dynamic of that tonal event propagation. You know when a life orchestra plays and you sit at the right spot and the violas and cellos start to pay a few milliseconds earlier then the right-sliding sound tits the left-rising sound as it creates a swinging bubble of sound, almost standing there for a few milliseconds, not knowing where to collapse. It is very difficult to do with playback. Macondo does crack it, however NOT in context of this track. This track has very strange presentation. The Right-Left events at this track are there but anything between right and left is like out of phase – they come like from nowhere. The mid sections of orchestra feel like flying all over the stage without knowing where to lend… Very strange and very unpleasant effect!

Pay attention that now the effect of K-Stereo vs. not K-Stereo is reversed. Looking at the first two tracks I would attribute this sound to K-Stereo treated track. Are you sure that you do not confused the tracks?

Playlist 07; Song 02.
Track 5; 17:18.
Paper Hat, Nine Conversations.
Rufus Records RF067; Recorded 2006.
RedBook CD 16 bits 44.1 kHz -> K-Stereo K-LEVEL K +06.0; SMALL + DEEP ON; DITHER 16 POWr3 44.1 kHz -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

It is some kind of jazz. I do not like this recording. Bass is incorrect, upper bass is never so heavily auditable and so prominent in context of a small jazz band. I was sitting there listing the whole paces. Yes, it is a nice collection of sounds but so what?

Playlist 07; Song 03.
Track 6; 17:16.
Paper Hat, Nine Conversations.
Rufus Records RF067; Recorded 2006.
RedBook CD 16 bits 44.1 kHz -> K-Stereo BYPASS -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Well, bass slightly lost it’s articulation and become less prominent and less annoying – that is good sigh to me. Compression, HF… But what should I do. To listen those sounds and “compare” them to the sounds from the former track? I do not do it I think this music that should be used for audio evaluations.

Playlist 07; Song 04.
Track 7; 7:24.
Monty Alexander, Love And Sunshine.
MPS Records 20 22620-4; Recorded 1974.
LP -> Turtle Beach Santa Cruz Crystal ADC -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz (many years ago) -> K-Stereo K-LEVEL K +06.0; SMALL + DEEP ON; DITHER 16 POWr3 44.1 kHz -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

It is some kind of Jazz as well. Are you sure that bass keys of piano should be at extreme left and the high keys of piano should me at extreme right? I was listening 1:29 sec of this track and moved next. BTW, it was bight like hell, audio bright. Too much “mastering”? Anyhow, Peter, I need to send you better examples of jazz… :-)

Playlist 08; Song 01.
Track 8; 7:24.
Monty Alexander, Love And Sunshine.
MPS Records 20 22620-4; Recorded 1974.
LP -> Turtle Beach Santa Cruz Crystal ADC -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz (many years ago) -> K-Stereo BYPASS -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

I skipped this track

Playlist 08; Song 02.
Track 9; 6:28.
Bill Evans, Waltz For Debby.
Giants Of Jazz CD 53371; Recorded 1972.
RedBook CD 16 bits 44.1 kHz -> K-Stereo K-LEVEL K +06.0; SMALL + DEEP ON; DITHER 16 POWr3 44.1 kHz -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Here is jazz but more appropriately recorded, though the microphone too closed to dram’s cymbals was inappropriate.

Playlist 08; Song 03.
Track 10; 6:30.
Bill Evans, Waltz For Debby.
Giants Of Jazz CD 53371; Recorded 1972.
RedBook CD 16 bits 44.1 kHz -> K-Stereo BYPASS -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Like before – the transients got eaten but it made the entire sound better and it was too aggressive at high. Unfortunately now I am missing bass definition a lot of “clarity”. The texture of the play got quite subdued.

Playlist 08; Song 04.
Track 11; 4:01.
Paul Horn & Billy Bean, Flute Cocktail.
Brunswick 10152 EPB; Recorded 1958.
EP -> Turtle Beach Santa Cruz Crystal ADC -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz (many years ago) -> K-Stereo K-LEVEL K +06.0; SMALL + DEEP ON; DITHER 16 POWr3 44.1 kHz -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Another Jazz!!! Is it reaching a critical mass for my weekly jazz consumption?

Playlist 08; Song 05.
Track 12; 4:01.
Paul Horn & Billy Bean, Flute Cocktail.
Brunswick 10152 EPB; Recorded 1958.
EP -> Turtle Beach Santa Cruz Crystal ADC -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz (many years ago) -> K-Stereo BYPASS -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

As I understand it was mono recording but I did not detect any large imaging difference between the track above. The former track I feel has very slightly larger “Mono Point” – the single absolute position where mono image should focus within a Stereo installation. The smaller point is the better system is. Still the deference between the Track 11 and Track 12 in the dimension of the Mono Point is very little.

Playlist 08; Song 06.
Track 13; 4:51.
Louis Stewart, Louis The First.
Hawk Jazz SHALP147; Recorded 1975.
LP -> Turtle Beach Santa Cruz Crystal ADC -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz (many years ago) -> K-Stereo K-LEVEL K +06.0; SMALL + DEEP ON; DITHER 16 POWr3 44.1 kHz -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

OK, some Jazz.

Playlist 08; Song 07.
Track 14; 4:51.
Louis Stewart, Louis The First.
Hawk Jazz SHALP147; Recorded 1975.
LP -> Turtle Beach Santa Cruz Crystal ADC -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz (many years ago) -> K-Stereo BYPASS -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

I played Song 06 and Song 07 a few times. They are different. Song06 is noisier with less sophisticated tone. The Song07 has more mussels. However, the Song06 has some softness and space that I also do appreciate. What said is that in Song06 tone got corrupted. Pay attention the tone become to have less mining.

Playlist 08; Song 08.
Track 15; 3:15.
Blossom Dearie, Blossom Dearie.
Verve 837 934-2; Recorded 1959.
RedBook CD 16 bits 44.1 kHz -> K-Stereo K-LEVEL K +06.0; SMALL + DEEP ON; DITHER 16 POWr3 44.1 kHz -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

OK.

Playlist 08; Song 09.
Track 16; 3:15.
Blossom Dearie, Blossom Dearie.
Verve 837 934-2; Recorded 1959.
RedBook CD 16 bits 44.1 kHz -> K-Stereo BYPASS -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Pretty much the same as Song 06 and Song 07. The Song 09 has more artificial noise that might add some “space” but it has a price tag.

Playlist 08; Song 10.
Track 17; 4:06.
Johnny Pisano & Billy Bean, Take Your Pick.
Decca Records DL 9212; Recorded 1958.
LP -> Turtle Beach Santa Cruz Crystal ADC -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz (many years ago) -> K-Stereo K-LEVEL K +06.0; SMALL + DEEP ON; DITHER 16 POWr3 44.1 kHz -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

OK.

Playlist 08; Song 11.
Track 18; 4:05.
Johnny Pisano & Billy Bean, Take Your Pick.
Decca Records DL 9212; Recorded 1958.
LP -> Turtle Beach Santa Cruz Crystal ADC -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz (many years ago) -> K-Stereo BYPASS -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Holly cow! This recording has bass? It was not auditable in the Song 10. The pattern is very same. The “Mono Spot” go enlarged but it more feel like a balloon the got blow….

Playlist 08; Song 12.
Track 19; 7:48.
Lisa Gerrard, Lisa Gerrard.
4AD CAD 2701CD; Recorded 1995.
RedBook CD 16 bits 44.1 kHz -> K-Stereo K-LEVEL K +06.0; WIDE + DEEP ON; DITHER 16 POWr3 44.1 kHz -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Hm, very affective! It hardly feels like music it more like a freak event in movie theater but still very impressive.

Playlist 08; Song 13.
Track 20; 7:46.
Lisa Gerrard, Lisa Gerrard.
4AD CAD 2701CD; Recorded 1995.
RedBook CD 16 bits 44.1 kHz -> K-Stereo BYPASS -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

This is way more appropriate and way more musical sound. This actually how it should sound! Pay attention how her voice is mixing with string section.  Pay attentions that it is not mixing but flow above the strings and when, what she needs it, her voice flow into orchestra. Pay attention how drama is being pumped via the relationship between his voice and the orchestral “filling”. Pay attention that at the Song 12 the effect was severely compromise and the drama was not there. Pay also attention how in Song 12 his voice got fragmentilized with a LOT of artifacts is noise.

Playlist 09; Song 01.
Track 21; 5:35.
Annie Ross & Zoot Sims, A Gasser.
Toshiba-EMI TOCJ-9463; Recorded 1959.
RedBook CD 16 bits 44.1 kHz -> K-Stereo K-LEVEL K +06.0; SMALL + DEEP ON; DITHER 16 POWr3 44.1 kHz -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

OK,

Playlist 09; Song 02.
Track 22; 5:35.
Annie Ross & Zoot Sims, A Gasser.
Toshiba-EMI TOCJ-9463; Recorded 1959.
RedBook CD 16 bits 44.1 kHz -> K-Stereo BYPASS -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.

Well, the same story as above.. I like the Song 02 is better then the Song 01. Pay attention at the natural infliction of the woman voice. You get texture and character. In the Song 01 those characters are less in amplitude. Her voice in Song 01 has some “empty” common denominator that should not be there…

Rgs, Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-20-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
peter foster
Australia
Posts 40
Joined on 02-16-2006

Post #: 27
Post ID: 5906
Reply to: 5903
Notes of Romy's comments
Dear Romy,

The tracks are correctly listed.

Yes, the tracks are varied and some are not good recordings at all.  BUT if you want to listen to Billy Bean play guitar or you want to hear Louis Stewart's first recording as an 18 year old then you have to live with what you can obtain.  The comparison needs to be - given a particular recording, can there be some non-destructive digital processing that enhances (1) imaging, (2) depth, (3) clarity and (4) spaciousness.  And if there can be, then how much enhancement for a particular track is the right amount before you screw with the "absolute tone".

On some tracks I prefer absolutely no K-processing.  On other tracks, I prefer a little K-processing only.  There is no best answer because the best settings vary from recording to recording and even on my mood.  I have learned often that less is more, i.e., a subtle use of K-processing often produced the most pleasing results. Note that the samples show bypass versus maximum K-processing (K +06.0) in order to emphasise the differences (which is using a heavy hand).

On my system, my preferred listening would be as follows:

K +03.0 WIDE ON
Serge Koussevitzky, Boston Symphony Orchestra.
Tchaikovsky, Symphony No 4 in F Minor, Opus 36.

K +01.5 WIDE + DEEP ON
Evgeny Mravinsky, Leningrad Philharmonic Orchestra.
Tschaikowsky, Symphonie Nr. 4 f-moll (in F minor) op. 36.

BYPASS
Paper Hat, Nine Conversations.

K +00.0 SMALL + DEEP ON
Monty Alexander, Love And Sunshine.

K +01.5 SMALL + DEEP ON
Bill Evans, Waltz For Debby.

K +03.0 SMALL + DEEP ON
Paul Horn & Billy Bean, Flute Cocktail.

K + 01.5 SMALL ON
Louis Stewart, Louis The First.

K + 01.5 SMALL ON
Blossom Dearie, Blossom Dearie.

K +03.0 SMALL + DEEP ON
Johnny Pisano & Billy Bean, Take Your Pick.

BYPASS
Lisa Gerrard, Lisa Gerrard.

K + 01.5 SMALL + DEEP ON
Annie Ross & Zoot Sims, A Gasser.

---

Notes:

While we have variable electricity supply here, I do not experience the impact that you and others seem to experience.  I do not know whether that is because of the uninterruptible power supplies (very important) that I use, or that we have (notional) 240 V 50 Hz power supply (often 250 V), or that the amplifier I am using has hand wound high quality custom made output transformers (very important), or because I live in a semi-rural area, or for some other reason but it sounds to me from the descriptions on your site that whatever ambience recovery you might be able to obtain from a digital machine would make only subtle differences compared with the big differences being caused by poor electricity supply.  I mention this because your comments about Playlist 07; Song 02 and Song 03 are difficult for me to reconcile.  On my system the upright bass is heard with very fine detail and all of the complex harmonics that follow the fundamentals are clearly heard.  To me, this is a toure de force recording of upright bass made with incredibly sensitive microphones that are certainly more sensitive than many human ears.  Recently, I was making a reference recording of a new archtop guitar and testing various microphones positioned at the edge of the nearfield.  I would pluck an open string and only when I heard complete silence I would then pluck the next open string and so forth.  When I played back that recording (with gain) there was absolutely no point of silence between plucking each string because the microphones were just so sensitive.  That is exactly the kind of sensitivity I am hearing on Playlist 07; Song 02 and Song 03.  In amplifying a very fine recording, you may very well be hearing material that you would never ever hear in an audience at a live concert.  On my system and to my hearing those tracks are perfect upright bass.  Yet your comments about Playlist 08; Song 13 are spot on.  Last week some friends came to visit and we listened to this track and after 5 or so minutes first the wife started crying and then soon after so did the husband because, they said, listening to that piece of music became an emotional listening experience.

Anyway, thank you for the comments which I was very interested to hear.

With kind regards,
Peter Foster.




11-21-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 28
Post ID: 5907
Reply to: 5906
“You may be hearing material that you would never hear at a live concert”
 peter foster wrote:
I mention this because your comments about Playlist 07; Song 02 and Song 03 are difficult for me to reconcile.  On my system the upright bass is heard with very fine detail and all of the complex harmonics that follow the fundamentals are clearly heard.  To me, this is a toure de force recording of upright bass made with incredibly sensitive microphones that are certainly more sensitive than many human ears.  Recently, I was making a reference recording of a new archtop guitar and testing various microphones positioned at the edge of the nearfield.  I would pluck an open string and only when I heard complete silence I would then pluck the next open string and so forth.  When I played back that recording (with gain) there was absolutely no point of silence between plucking each string because the microphones were just so sensitive.  That is exactly the kind of sensitivity I am hearing on Playlist 07; Song 02 and Song 03.  In amplifying a very fine recording, you may very well be hearing material that you would never ever hear in an audience at a live concert.  On my system and to my hearing those tracks are perfect upright bass
Well, it would not be directly related to K-Stereo but I very much disagree with the sentiment that Playlist 07; Song 02 and Song 03 is right representation of music or I would say Sound to me more correctly. It is effective and showy it does all those artificial audio tricks but it has completely no signature of event. In this recording there is just an attitude of recording engineer, sort of Audio Victory, but the sound related to the musicality itself is moved at the very back burner of attention. If you allow Peter I might post a fragment of this track here in order other understand what the conversation all about. The upper-bass is recorded as the typical hi-fi show demo track should be recoprded  - courtesy of the zillions of identical jazz recordings, the Patricia Barber and the Tree Blind Mice recordings made audiophiles feel that without upper-bass chest pressure there is no bass… I do not feel it is correct and although I do admit that it is impressive but I do also fell that this impressiveness is very superficial and based upon irrational snuck expectations, egos and substitution of values.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-21-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
peter foster
Australia
Posts 40
Joined on 02-16-2006

Post #: 29
Post ID: 5914
Reply to: 5907
Upright bass - very superficial or not.
Dear Romy,

If you want to post some fragments, then perhaps Playlist 07; Song 03 (bypass) minutesTongue Tiedeconds 4:08 - 4:46, 4:46 - 5:37 and / or 16:30 - 17:12.  We are discussing upright bass.  As I recall, they should would produce a frequencies range for fundamentals of, say, 32 Hz to 440 Hz, so maybe that range extends a bit lower than upper bass.  I would also be interested in hearing the views of people who play upright bass, if we have some on the site.

Regards, Peter Foster.
11-21-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 30
Post ID: 5916
Reply to: 5914
Peter's UpperBass + K-Stereo Files.
The files are 18 meg each, 16/44.1 format.

Playlist 07; Song 02.
Track 5; 17:18.
Paper Hat, Nine Conversations.
Rufus Records RF067; Recorded 2006.
RedBook CD 16 bits 44.1 kHz -> K-Stereo K-LEVEL K +06.0; SMALL + DEEP ON; DITHER 16 POWr3 44.1 kHz -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Audio_Files/PeterUpperBass_K-Stereo_Track02.wav  (file removed)


Playlist 07; Song 03.
Track 6; 17:16.
Paper Hat, Nine Conversations.
Rufus Records RF067; Recorded 2006.
RedBook CD 16 bits 44.1 kHz -> K-Stereo BYPASS -> Alesis ML-9600 -> RedBook CDR 16 bits 44.1 kHz.
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Audio_Files/PeterUpperBass_Track03.wav  (file removed)

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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