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08-06-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 21
Post ID: 19848
Reply to: 19846
Getting just desserts
fiogf49gjkf0d
There was no dessert wine per se during the Bolly meal; just ascending richness and intensity, coupled with a body so full as to be atypical even for a butch Champagne house like Bollinger. To my mind, Sauternes should be consumed with either Roquefort Papillon Noir, or Foie Gras torchon; these are pairings practically symphonic, and you're right, to pair something like an d'Yquem or Muller Eiswein with dessert - and perish the thought that it contains chocolate - is to overwhelm the dessert and clutter the wine's palate to no good end. So perfect are these synergies that it seems almost churlish to trifle with anything else. Much thought should be given to musical accompaniment, but the food/wine pairing itself is child's play, giving harmonies so wondrous, yet so perfectly obvious, that it makes little sense to go elsewhere. Wouldn't the crowning irony be the female partner who refuses to eat the ambrosia that is foie gras on moral grounds? Just like the anti-pipe fascists:-)

de Charlus
08-07-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 22
Post ID: 19849
Reply to: 19848
CWC 90, you lucky fellow
fiogf49gjkf0d
Oh, and yes, that is pretty much the Champagne sine qua non for aging; you've done really well there. 20-30 years is not unrealistic for the very best 90s, as includes even the 1990 Pol Roger Vintage. You need to be so careful to keep the bottle angled slightly downwards, giving the wine full contact with the cork; this is even more important than with normal wine, but then, you doubtless knew that. Good buy!

de Charlus
08-07-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,378
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 23
Post ID: 19850
Reply to: 19811
A Good, Sound Beating Now and Then
fiogf49gjkf0d
Note that I am responding late to the post about the "closed-down/dormant" '89 Bordeaux.  For those who do not know, some great wines can be brought (back) to life by beating the hell out of them. I use a large Burgundy glass for about everything, and I have learned to get excited at the smell of "burning rubber" exhibited by certain big Bordeaux, as this may well presage greatness, as opposed to spoilage.  In some extreme cases, a good. sound "beating" is just the ticket.  One simply, persistently, aggressively swirls the wine around in the decanter, and if that doesn't work I have even shaken it up.   I wish I had been aware of this "revival" method when I sadly drank an "over-the-hill" '52 Chateau Ausone in 1974!

Of course, although there are exceptions, one generally allows Burgundies to come up in the glass!  But I recommend one never write off a great vintage of a great chateaux before you beat some sense into it.

Best regards,
Paul S
08-07-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 24
Post ID: 19851
Reply to: 19850
Violence towards wine
fiogf49gjkf0d
As for your theory of forced oxygenation, I think that I would err on the side of a vigorous decanting, followed by a little patience. A 52 Ausone will never be a 61,, no matter what violence you perpetrate upon it. Aggressive oxygenation of young wines can certainly open up previously hidden flavor profiles for tasting purposes, but I would not address a "closed" 89 Mouton or 82 Cheval Blanc by flagellation; they will blossom in time, and sometimes in unexpected fashions, which one wouldn't wish to miss. I too use a Riedel Burgundy glass for most tasting purposes, since they hold so much of the bouquet; the only exception is the Riedel Riesling, which channels the seminal flavor elements to the areas of the palate where they will be best appreciated. IMHO Burgundy should not be decanted, merely care being taken to leave the lees in the bottle; we are, after all, dealing with relatively delicate, ephemeral properties here. That is, I suppose, unless you like "Parker" Burgundy like Dom. Leroy, which definitely benefits from aeration.

de Charlus
08-07-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,378
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 25
Post ID: 19852
Reply to: 19851
Escalating Levels of Violence
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, all that. Of course one never resorts to the paddles except in the most desperate cases. Once the bottle is open, however, this may at least make a silk purse from a sow's ear.  On the other side, I got too early to a Montrose that seemed "young" at 35 years, and no amount of whipping would substitute for even more time in this case.

As for Leroy, we are fortunate that Parker's influence is not ubiquitous with this producer, for, although Leroy and DRC do have domains that seem more aimed at the Parker-ized these days, they (Thank God) also still offer some more traditional delights, as well.

Best regards,
Paul S
08-07-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 26
Post ID: 19853
Reply to: 19852
Parker and Leroy
fiogf49gjkf0d
I don't see DRC wines as being Parkerized at all; they are, and always were, simply rich, grandiose, and as extracted as one might expect from 8hl/ha yields from the very greatest of Grand Crus, while at the same time being the last word in finesse. The Leroy wines, on the other hand, are so reverse-osmosis, so long macerated and employ so much new oak - even in the case of inauspicious vineyards - that they're sometimes barely recognizable as Pinot Noir, and emphatically not as Burgundy. Even the very richest vintages from DRC, Joseph Roty, Comte Armand, Meo-Camuzet, Dugat, Dugat-Py and de Vogue don't taste anything like these behemoths, yet Parker thinks they're the best thing since sliced bread. Perhaps in 30 years or so some of these things will emerge with flying colors, but I doubt it. I was recently at a tasting at which each taster brought a bottle concealed in wrapping paper, so as to be entirely blind; from the color, nose and monolithic, black fruit and French Oak palate of one of the wines, three of the tasters there - not including myself, for I had tasted this wine before and so knew it - identified it as Cos d'Estournel 1990, an understandable error in some ways given what was going on with nose and palate, but it turned out to be Chambolle-Musigny 1er Cru Les Amoureuses 1995 Dom. Leroy, typically one of the most supple, gracious and refined of the Chambolle 1er Crus, which is not to suggest that it is without richness and structure, since both de Vogue and Dujac do stellar examples of this 1er Cru. I mean, this stuff was thick, inky-black, reeked of new oak and had a palate redolent of claret - mocha, cigar box, dark fruits and only the subtlest hints of Burgundian red fruit, truffle etc. There was no discernible hint of Les Amoureuses terroir at all, and yet I can say from experience that this wine, at this stage of its development, was almost indistinguishable from the same vintage of Charmes-Chambertin Dom Leroy, two vineyards whose produce typically couldn't be more different. The infuriating thing is that great Burgundy, made in the traditional way, ages beautifully anyway, and simply doesn't need to relinquish all its charm for the amusement of Mr. Parker and La Leroy; Last year I drank Romanee-Conti 21 and Richebourg 59 DRC, and both were exquisite, yet neither were tannic, oaky, monolithic powerhouses when young. The bottom line is that Ms. Leroy knows how to please Parker, and she does, with bells on; I for one predict a crash in the value of Dom. Leroy wines when in about 10 years people realize that their treasured Parker 100s are dumb, monolithic and utterly charmless.

de Charlus
08-07-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 27
Post ID: 19854
Reply to: 19853
Montrose
fiogf49gjkf0d
Montrose is one of those funny ones that, whilst not exactly at the top of the tree, seems to last forever, as is the tendency with some St. Estephes. All I can suggest with that is to return what you have left to the cellar for another 10 or 20 years - which vintage are we talking about anyway?
08-07-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 28
Post ID: 19855
Reply to: 19853
Sweet on sweet is a bit too much.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Excellent point. Adrian. And as you mention Penderecki, even better might be his Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima.

c
08-07-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 29
Post ID: 19856
Reply to: 19855
Vinturi
fiogf49gjkf0d
What do people here think of those pour-through devices that swirl the wine?

And while I'm at it, how about those magnets?

I've even heard of static electricity discharge.

c
08-07-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 30
Post ID: 19857
Reply to: 19856
Aeration
fiogf49gjkf0d
Nothing wrong with those wine-swirling devices, although they do strike me as being an elaborate solution to a simple problem. That said, they do the job, and people like their wine gadgetry. PS If you're getting burning rubber on the nose - and you don't happen to be drinking S.A. Pinotage, which is vile and unquestionably the work of Satan - you may be encountering a wine fault resulting from an unwanted reaction between sulphur and yeast, resulting in the presence of mercaptans. Extended aeration can ameliorate this somewhat, but it will never be a perfect bottle, merely a drinkable one, no matter how much you scourge it.

de Charlus

PS By way of dichotomy, one of the loveliest synergies of music and wine I've lately encountered has been the Mozart Requiem with The English Baroque Soloists, The Monteverdi Choir, conducted by Sir John Eliot Gardiner on Phillips, with the Tokaji Essencia 1995 from The Royal Tokaji Company. This nectar is so intense that it takes many years to ferment to 3% alcohol, with an incredible 85% residual sugar. There's something so decadent about sipping such ambrosial stuff whilst such musical beauty washes over one.
08-07-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,378
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 31
Post ID: 19862
Reply to: 19857
Davis
fiogf49gjkf0d
My son and I refer to the over-engineered winebots generically as (UC) Davis wines, because it was not only the new vines but also the "technology" and the method(ology) that crossed the ocean from California.

It has been a few years since my last run through the Leroy wines, but as I recall the biggest disappointments were their "biggest" vineyards (say, Richebourg), compared to their counterparts from other, more traditional domains.  As for DRC, I will take all the DRC/DRC and La Tache anyone cares to give me, from any vintage they want to name.  I'm not holding my breath (but I keep one eye open for the '45).

As for Lalou, I thought she also owned some DRC?

Best regards,
Paul S

08-08-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 32
Post ID: 19863
Reply to: 19862
The Ghastly Ms. Bize
fiogf49gjkf0d
The dreadful Ms. Bize did indeed have a small holding of DRC, but this is ancient history and very acrimonious. Nowadays de Villaine detests her with a passion beyond words, but then again, he must derive enormous satisfaction from what abuse she inflicts on all those wonderful holdings. Now, I know many people in the wine world and practically every serious collector in Europe, and there is not one who would not take a DRC, Dugat, Dugat-Py, Meo-Camuzet or de Vogue instead of one of her jammy, oaky, unsophisticated and essentially terroir-less Parkerized liquids. Who, in that case, is buying? The Asian market, which is purely about prestige, and when prestige is the factor sui generis, they will convince themselves that that Dom Leroy Griotte-Chambertin is the best thing they ever tasted, that is, of course, assuming that the stuff ever leaves the bonded warehouse and gets drunk, by no means a certainty. Parker is tossing about aging figures as of old, but let us not forget that the vast majority of those legendary '28s contained a solid dose of Hermitage. The Asians believe that if they can age a Grand Cru Burgundy from a "top" producer for 40-50 years, then they must be onto a colossal winner. I pity the wealthy numbskull who parts with his cash in order to actually drink what I'm sure will be swill, but then, the "Tiger Economy" will be laughing all the way to the bank.
Yes, Romanee-Conti is to my mind better than all things earthly in a good vintage, followed closely by La Tache and Richebourg. The Grands Echezeaux is the bargain of the lot, and there's nothing wrong with the Echezeaux. Try to look out a 59 Richebourg DRC; lovely drinking right now, and to my mind, underpriced.
As for Ms. Bize, the reason that her Grand Crus are so disappointing is that her vini- and viti-culture renders them all but indistinguishable from far less grandiose DOCs; this is emphatically not the expression of terroir in any form, and much like an orchestra ad-libbing during Mozart's Requiem - coarse, unsophisticated, lacking in respect for greatness and generally crude and stupid. This is not to suggest that it's impossible to produce ultra-rich, intense wines still deeply expressive of terroir; try a Charmes-Chambertin Dugat in a good vintage, a Meo-Camuzet, a Musigny de Vogue - it's just that she sees the quickest, easiest route to colossal wealth in becoming an acolyte of Parker, a man who has as much knowledge about real Burgundy in his head as I do in my big toe.

de Charlus
08-08-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 524
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 33
Post ID: 19864
Reply to: 19850
Beat a dead wine to life
fiogf49gjkf0d
Paul,

I have vigorously aerated a few wines to life, but I find this typically works best for tight, tannic, younger wines that can take it. Still this method means the flavors will emerge, partially salvaging the opened bottle, but are quite ephemeral.

My preferred method when I have detected burning rubber is to let the wine remain in the bottle overnight for a very slow gentle oxidation.

Adrian
08-08-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 524
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 34
Post ID: 19865
Reply to: 19853
Parker wine
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, the cult of Parker is pervasive and has changed modern winemaking. It is wonderful so long as you simply buy and sell the wines without opening them.  I admit to being a sucker in the past, at the urging of a local wine merchant, now being stuck with several cases of 2000 La Pavie. I don't think that will ever come together....

Adrian
08-08-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 524
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 35
Post ID: 19866
Reply to: 19856
Venturi aerator
fiogf49gjkf0d
Clark, 

This simple gadget does what it says. It does make young wine slightly more mellow. The perfect thing for when you don't have a perfectly aged bottle at hand.

I also happen to love a device called the Wine Shield. You pop it in the bottle and it preserves it. Magic! Better than all the other wine preserving devices out there. Yes, I have tried them all. I add a layer of inert "Wine Preserver" gas on top, but the disc is just totally worth it.

Adrian
08-08-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,378
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 36
Post ID: 19871
Reply to: 19866
Wine, Music, and Sensory Overload?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Maybe Kierkegaard was right...

Although I was introduced to Great Burgundy during a series of great, grand, multi-course feasts, this was a long time ago, and things have changed for me since then.  For one thing, there was never any Bruckner rendered by an evolved hi-fi system during any of my early wine tasting.  The more I think about it, the more uncomfortable I become at the thought of trying to enjoy Grand Crus and Bruckner 7 simultaneously. No, I have not actually tried it yet, but I have gotten to the point where I really immerse in either of these experiences, pretty much to the exclusion of else, with the exception that I like some Kavli Crispy Thin crackers, a nice cheese, maybe some fruit, and some wine-talk with the wine, and I can drink something "stupid" with Bruckner on the hi-fi.  While drinking great wine is a long way from work, I do get a lot more from the experience, according to the attention I pay to it, and the music, too, seems to offer more, the more attention I pay to it.  Now I'm wondering, do I even want to multi-task these experiences?  I know I will pass on smoking Penzance while riding my bike, for example.  Where do we draw the line?

Meanwhile, we should all try to remember that Parker actually says outright that he is not a Burgundy guy.  Why not simply take him at his word on this?  Or, just go ahead and get some Hermitage, which we all seem to agree on.  Again, try Allen Meadows for a refined take on the petit domains (or, stay tuned for dC's updates...).


Paul S
08-08-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 37
Post ID: 19873
Reply to: 19871
Pavie etc
fiogf49gjkf0d
Adrian, there's nothing wrong with owning a few cases of 2000 Pavie, as long as you consider it an investment. After the 2000 Primeur tasting in Bordeaux I bought everything I could; my fortunate position within those circles allowed me to obtain a few cases of each 1st Growth and most of the super 2nds, as well as some of the more exciting Pomerols, but I also bought up palettes of things like Clerc Milon, Pavie, Leoville Barton etc and made a small fortune on it all. After all, it was the millennium vintage - even were the quality average, it would still have been a good investment opportunity - but as it turned out, it was the best since 90. The main problem for most people was obtaining sufficient allocations of the better wines to invest in, but if one were able to do that, as I was, returns of 30%p.a. were normal, the 1st Growths and Parker 100s well exceeding that. You did just fine, as long as you're not actually intending to drink the stuff.
I take your point about sensory overload but, what can I say, I'm a hedonist and as such like to pile one pleasure on top of the nest, on top of the next. All that being so, when the Burgundy releases come up, I shall be more than happy to provide investment and/or drinking advice to all who are interested.
It's a great relief that, for the most part, Parker has not been able to foul up Burgundy in the same way that he has almost everything else; that would have been a tragedy, but then, Burgundians are a xenophobic folk who believe that their way is the best way, something that I've seen nothing to contradict.

de Charlus 
08-08-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,378
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 38
Post ID: 19874
Reply to: 19873
The Futures Look So Bright, I've got to wear shades
fiogf49gjkf0d
Ha! After one fairly worthless Bordeux tasting I bought all the Leoville Barton and Rieussec they would sell me!  Compare the "Irish" wine to the Las Cases if you want another reminder of yea or nay on Parker.  Or, compare Mouton to Lafite.  Sure, buying and selling is one thing, and actually drinking the wine is another. However, I much prefer to have my cake and eat it, too!


Best regards,
Paul S
08-08-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 39
Post ID: 19876
Reply to: 19874
The Midas, vinous touch
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, actually drinking the stuff isn't much fun, but at $5000 per case, who's complaining? I mean, you probably paid around $500 in 2005, so that kind of return in a mere 8 years is not to be sniffed at; that said, I do not see this meteoric rise continuing apace - just think, you could sell it and buy some proper wine! Perhaps a half-bottle of Egon Muller Scharzhofberger Eiswein, and spend the leftover on La Tache! As Leoville's go, Las Cases really is something special, although that's not to say that Barton is not; it's just different... very, very different. Rieussec is never a bad idea either. As you mention Lafite, I had a bottle of the 83 just the other day, and it was great; quite the bargain too, really, and drinking well now. Mouton always was the most "exuberant" of the 1sts, even before Parker came along, although it's been more so lately; the only "promotion" to 1st growth status ever too - who says that money can't buy anything? - although on the basis of 45, 47, 61, 82, 90 and 00, it probably deserves it, although Leoville Las Cases probably deserves it equally, but is less well-funded.

de Charlus
08-08-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,378
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 40
Post ID: 19877
Reply to: 19876
Time to Refuel
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, I've about gone through my personal 82s and 83s, more's the pity.  And, by the way, I actually (generally) like the Barton better than the Las Cases, too (yes, I know; but it's not really like Segar, or that one-trick sort of thing.....). I also quite like Rieussec (the average man's d'Yquem), and what I kept of what I bought is coming along nicely.

And, how dare you accuse the Rothschilds of using money to influence the course of events! The last Mouton I had (at the tasting I just mentioned, as it happens...) did not excite me, and it was way over-priced (as wine).  And they sold it all...



Best regards,
Paul
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