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  »  New  What is the difference between the cartridges?..  Some more links about Dynavector cartridges...  Analog Playback Forum     6  59845  09-12-2004
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09-07-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
starboy
Posts 23
Joined on 09-11-2004

Post #: 21
Post ID: 8194
Reply to: 8192
Versus
Paul S used the same subject title I noted after placing my post.

It just surprised me somewhat.

Rgds all
09-08-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,734
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 22
Post ID: 8200
Reply to: 8190
Andre, Mantis, Methinks, Gyger, Hanekom, 2 Jubilees, I am confused…

 starboy wrote:

www.blueangelaudio.com
I did not have time to follow the posts over the weekend and I need to spend some time to carefully read all comments including the linked. I kind of confided with new names at this point and I why to sort the thing out - who is who.

I did call to the guy who makes the Mantis cartridges on Saturday trying to find out what it is. His name was a fairly long that I failed to undusted (very typical for me). We had a semi- productive conversation and I requested some introductory kit via email. I go more information form “Andre” – which is the name that I am sure, would recognize via telephone. I presume that it is the same gentlemen form Johannesburg who makes the Mantis Blue Angel cartridges. I asked Mantis is he would allow me to post in this there some of the information that he sent to me, if I get OK then I will do so.

Generally the conversation with Andre went OK. To my pleasure he did not express that idiotic attitude that most of US manufacturers do. The US manufacturers or distributors are considering themselves as belly-button of audio universal and the ultimate providers of Better Sound. Their superior attitude and their feeling that they do a huge favor that they talk to you is something that annoys me tremendously.  Andre communication protocol is different in a way similar to a very few other manufacturers who do custom work and deal direct with customers.   It is good sign as far as I concern.

There were some moments that I appreciated in the conversation about that Mantis cartridge and there were some that made me suspicions. Perhaps both of those feeling are groundless and I need more time to press all data that I got. The bad part in all of it that familiarizing about Mantis’ data and talking with Andre about it I still am absolutely clueless about the sound of this thing and if the Mantis cartridge might be something that I am looking for. I think the conversation about Mantis will continue in this thread.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-08-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,734
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 23
Post ID: 8207
Reply to: 8200
Some further thoughts…

I was taking lately with the Blue Angel’s Andre and kept asking him about his cartridge’s bass. He got “scared” and asked me if I am looking for overly-anaphased bass, then he asked what kind music I am listening. I perfectly understand why he got “scared” as there are a lot of Morns out there who are looking cartridges to deliver the club’s chest pressure while they listen pop music.

Although my paranoia with bass does sound mature but my reasoning for paying too much attention on cartridge’s bass slightly on other side. There are 5 major characteristics that I care in cartridge:

1)     Quality of the lowers bass.
2)     Dynamic property  relative to harmonics
3)     Amplitude of tonal palette  and the quality of the Absolute Tone ™  (read somewhere at my site)
4)     Cleanness of HF in regard to the lowers bass.
5)     Connectivity of the events

There are many other thighs that I pay attention but those 5 characteristics are mediatory.  My second Stereo tonearm armed with SPU Classic centers around the paragraphs #3, #4, #5. My Reference Stereo tonearm with Shelter 901 is centered on the paragraphs #1, #2, #4… In my view Shelter 901 does a phenomenal job in the #1, #2 and #4.  It is not difficult to see that all of those 3 paragraphs are based upon the Quality of the very very lowers bass.

Why I am so abscessed with the lowers bass. Well, do not take is as a posing but the reason is simple:  because my installation can handle it at the level where I can capitalize on it. It is VERY difficult to get bass in analog. Some turntables do not have it. Some tonearms do not have it. There is nothing that can be done to it – it is just not there. Surely many speakers and amps do not handle bass. Many rooms do not handle bass in right way. Mostly none of the transforms do lowest bass right. In the very same ways many if not most of the cartridges do not develop proper bass and if they do then screw up in many other areas, making good bass unusable. The Shelter 901 has no only great bass but it has phenomenal bass. It is not just only bass but the way how that bass blossoms itself up to the lower midrange.  I was not able to get in on my Micro 5000 and never was able to get it on other arm beside the 3012 with ~30g effective mass. But I am so in lobe, or in addiction to this Shelter’s lowest bass that I hardly see myself to commit adultery to it.

If I stepped away from Shelter 901 then I do ask for a certain level of lowest bass quality. I understand that there is no infrastructure or language to support the subjective assessments of the lower bass but it would not stop me to demand what I would like to get.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-12-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,734
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 24
Post ID: 8229
Reply to: 8207
About lean, mean and ‘easy go’ cartridges

Stressing Bass in my former post I would like do not overly accent the lower bass itself but rather an organic combination of bass with something that I would call “full body” sound.

It we look at many properly setups, loaded and amplified cartridges then quite many of them have that “lean sound”, the tiny, high resolution , forceful presentation of notes; the notes that punch listeners with disconnected sonic needles. I know that the Morons consider it as “high definition audio” but I hate it very much. In fact most of the people build own playbacks (speakers, tonearms, amps, digital and so on) in exactly the same was but it would be a different topic.

Surely this high definition, lean, overly-hyped presentation is not ONLY the subject of cartridges but some cartridges have generally a tendency to “lean sound” vs. “fool body sound”. The lean cartridges have tendencies to convert contralto into coloratura mezzo-soprano, they uselessly slightly more musically “sharp” and have slightly reduced the profile of parabola with witch a tone roll into its pitch. The lean cartridges are demonstrable and effective but only in context of instantaneous gratification. They are like some Asian food – easy come and easy go…

Musically the lean cartridge goes well with flashy, showy and ostentatious music: Rimsky-Korsakov’s Sherezade, Shchedrin’s Carmen, Early Beethoven symphonic works, most of Horowitz and so on… As the examples of the lean cartridge would call all Lyra cartridges, all Clearaudio cartridges, most of Denons, most likely the ZYX (thought I hear it only a few times not in my playback and I cannot generalize at this point), in a certain was the Transfigurations, the cheaper Dynavectors and a few others. The Shelters, at least the 901 that I have is nothing even close to be lean, in fact it on the very posit side – it is fat and something that I call would call “stout sound”. That stout sound characterized by a good saturation of harmonics in the “primary frequencies” (300-500Hz) and a proper parabola with witch tones roll into own pitch. The “properness” also derided not only from a good development in “primary frequencies” but a good balance if transient characteristics to the “size” and “weight” of the “primary frequencies”. Here is what I feel Shelter 901 doe superbly good.  The Ortofon SPU in my view is also have very well developed “melody range” (primary frequencies) but they are pleasantly colored and have no lower bass to support and balance out the HF extension. Here is where Shelter shine on a good glory… What I wonder if the Ortofon Jubilee is capable to break through the SP’s family characteristics…

What I very funny that that analog people refuse to talk objectively about the “lean” vs. “full body” sound of cartridges. The feel that it is some kind of highly subjective things that shell be left out of attention. Ironically it is the very first thing that I care when I ask about cartridges. For a last couple days I was posting at Vinyl Dedicated forum (http://www.vinylengine.com)  trying to get form the guys who use Blue Angel OLIVE Mantis cartridge an idea what lean vs. stout character the Mantis has. As any other audio-cretins out there they had many recommendations for me to use medications and how to behave more congenially among the horde of idiots but they did not indicate anything that might identify the lean characters vs. full body character of Mantis.

Looking further to the candidates …

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-12-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,257
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 25
Post ID: 8234
Reply to: 8229
Tape versus LP
Romy, what you describe is exactly what motivated my own decision.  This was the main thing that bugged me when listening between master tapes (and careful 1st dubs) and the LPs made from them, meaning the way the LP (and presumably the cartridges, too) stretch and thin things upward.  The Ortofon MC2000 and 3000 were the ONLY cartridges I found that kept everything pretty close to the tape, not only in terms of balance but in terms of "attack", etc.  I went for the 3000 because the output on the 2000 is so low that it winds up creating extreme noise problems.  Neither of these cartridges are top-of-the-heap trackers, but the 3000 will track very decently in a nice, damped arm set at the top of its recommended tracking weight.

Given good electricity and front end, the bass is there, and the "body" is there.  This guy will not break free of bad electricity, but it will do the best known-to-me rendition of master tape, FWIW.  At its best, the Jubilee is "glorious"; very nice, but it is "nice", if you know what I mean; it is not a "hard tracer", and I do not think it was meant to be.  I have thought that it might fare better with bad electricity...


Best regards,
Paul S
09-12-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 512
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 26
Post ID: 8238
Reply to: 8229
Vinyl engine
 Romy the Cat wrote:
For a last couple days I was posting at Vinyl Dedicated forum (http://www.vinylengine.com)  trying to get form the guys who use Blue Angel OLIVE Mantis cartridge an idea what lean vs. stout character the Mantis has. As any other audio-cretins out there they had many recommendations for me to use medications and how to behave more congenially among the horde of idiots but they did not indicate anything that might identify the lean characters vs. full body character of Mantis.


I saw that.  They didn't answer your questions; just kind of mocked you.  That wasn't nice.

I bet you will be interested in this though.  http://www1.bbiq.jp/miyajima-lab/index.html

Adrian
09-12-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,734
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 27
Post ID: 8239
Reply to: 8161
Random thoughts in search for a/the cartridge. A final?

 Two weeks ago when I realized that something was wrong with my Shelter I asked a guy that I know “How people buy cartridges nowadays?” He said “They talk a lot with other people”. “I will not do it”, was my reply. Well, not two weeks after I have to admit that I was wrong and I did talk a lot with various people – what else can I do if no one let cartridges for test drive?

There was a number of interesting cases made to me and I was positively-gullible listening everyone. I admit that I was exacting to hear from others only what I want to heard about the sound of cartridges. A few contenders make my short list, most of them off the list but different rezones. I also do not have own experiences with the cartridges that looks like I intend to proceed.

The Shelters were always leading my interest. I do like my 901 and I do not mind to have another one. My Shelters specialist who I thought might educate me about the new Shelters turned out never deal with Shelter after Shelter 90X, there are 4 new models. I found a very pleasant guy – John from Sound Images in Westport, MA (508) 636-3400, who did explained to me the differences in design and sound between all currant Shelter models. It was educational and very useful even thought I did detect that he was not “heavy vinyl junky”. It was good talk and I think I need now to buy something from those guys to compliment them. However, John was not able to collaborate on the specifics of my interests with Shelter. The specifics are following: will the more expensive Shelters address what I consider the Shelter’s minor weaknesses. Here is what I fell is “wrong” with Shelter 901.

1) High electrostatic or whatever other reason make the cartridge very prone to collect dust.

2) Exceedingly hard-reading with slightly overly prominent leading-edges of the phases. This demands VERY high quality of electricity to handle the transient speed of the leading-edges.

3) Very minor dynamic disorientation during orchestral crescendo. It is not auditable at 90dB sensitively and SS PP (I have good 90dB sensitive speakers) but it is auditable at 110dB and SET. Formerly I did not observe it but with new version of Macondo/Melquiades do experience it. I do not know if it is because the 6-chennal Milq is more dynamic or because my Shelter got worn.

4) Slight deficiency in amplitude of color.

5) Minor depersonalization of the upper mid range. It might be hoe to the fact that I tend to run my Shelter relatively hard loaded.

6) Very high sensitively to the quality of surface.

All those things I consider as Shelter 901 shortcomings but there are normal shortcomings and I would perfectly live with them. I was searching a person who know estimate my “Shelter bitching list” against the newest shelters.  I sow nobody and I decided to call (second time) to Shelter distributor - Art from   Axiss Audio. As far as I concern this guy acted like a fucks idiot and I do not like him. He spoke with me like I am 8 years old – passing a LOT of pure BS information and demonstrating ignorance in very rudimental questions. In fact the conversation with him encouraged me to abandon Shelter as I am afraid that having this Moron as distributor Shelter might make the Moron-accommodated cartridges – I have seen it with many companies. So, the chose is to stay with old new stock Shelter 901/90x or to go for something new.

StarBoy made an interesting case with his proposal of that Sound African cartridge. The case is substantiated as he uses SPU along with 901 and then he went for Mantis. StarBoy might be right and the Mantis is good cartridge but I was looking more feeling about the Mantis performances and I did not get from them neither with other Mantis users nor with Mantis manufacturer. The level at wish I expected the stand was made was not there. The Mantis guy and this internet Co.  need to keep working…

Where the case was made very strongly and a very serious level was the case about the Otophone Jubilee.  At this point I did not read any reviews and have seen only technical specification. Two people who pitched to me this cartridge very intelligently and very knowledgeably and informed descried to me the Jubilee specifics, the specifics in the areas that I would like to hear about. It sounds to me very interesting and at this moment the most convincing.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-12-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,257
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 28
Post ID: 8240
Reply to: 8239
Like it or not,
Art Dudley did a pretty fair review of the Jubilee for Stereophile a couple of years back.  Of course, he is selling it, so one must +/- read between the lines.  Still, he at least touches on/talks about the important stuff in terms of balance and dynamics, I think, and his observations +/- jibed with mine, except he uses no negatives so one has to guess the weaknesses by interpolating the "strengths.  Anyway, another cud to chew.

Best,
Paul S
09-12-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,734
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 29
Post ID: 8241
Reply to: 8240
The Jubilee reviews?
 Paul S wrote:
Art Dudley did a pretty fair review of the Jubilee for Stereophile a couple of years back. Of course, he is selling it, so one must +/- read between the lines. Still, he at least touches on/talks about the important stuff in terms of balance and dynamics, I think, and his observations +/- jibed with mine, except he uses no negatives so one has to guess the weaknesses by interpolating the "strengths. Anyway, another cud to chew.
I did not read the Art Dudley review; in fact I do not read anything about the Jubilee. What would one exposit from Dudleys? The problem is not that they are “selling” but the problem is that they do not write/think for themselves but rather they write/think for readers. This is why I hate whatever they write – their writing sounds to me like the cheap crap that many Russian bad writers have written during the communism time to please the demands for party propaganda. I am sure it was not the review and his desire to learn and discover the performance characteristic of the cartridge but rather the time comes and he got a new cartridge with a task to found a new set of soliciting and persuading adjectives and to drop them among the expected marketing lingo-movements. What can you expect from the people who build playback systems in accordance with equipment that they were able to extort from manufactures? After all I need a cartridge for sound in my room, not for the erecting my ego. So far I did not see the reviewers to write about Abstract Sound with respect to the subject instead the respect to the tradable commodity…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-12-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 512
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 30
Post ID: 8242
Reply to: 8239
Correction of defects
 Romy the Cat wrote:

1) High electrostatic or whatever other reason make the cartridge very prone to collect dust.

2) Exceedingly hard-reading with slightly overly prominent leading-edges of the phases. This demands VERY high quality of electricity to handle the transient speed of the leading-edges.

3) Very minor dynamic disorientation during orchestral crescendo. It is not auditable at 90dB sensitively and SS PP (I have good 90dB sensitive speakers) but it is auditable at 110dB and SET. Formerly I did not observe it but with new version of Macondo/Melquiades do experience it. I do not know if it is because the 6-chennal Milq is more dynamic or because my Shelter got worn.

4) Slight deficiency in amplitude of color.

5) Minor depersonalization of the upper mid range. It might be hoe to the fact that I tend to run my Shelter relatively hard loaded.

6) Very high sensitively to the quality of surface.

The Decca London Reference appears ideal.  I am probably going to buy one of these. Romy, you are free to borrow it if you wish to listen to it; just do not break it. 

The question now for me is what second tonearm is appropriate.  Any suggestions. It will need to be neutral; maybe the Schroeder or the AirTangent? I rather like the linear tracking tonearm.  When I have heard it, the sound was complemented nicely.

 Romy the Cat wrote:
StarBoy made an interesting case with his proposal of that Sound African cartridge. The case is substantiated as he uses SPU along with 901 and then he went for Mantis. StarBoy might be right and the Mantis is good cartridge but I was looking more feeling about the Mantis performances and I did not get from them neither with other Mantis users nor with Mantis manufacturer. The level at wish I expected the stand was made was not there. The Mantis guy and this internet Co.  need to keep working…

I do not believe it.  I think it is a very good MC cartridge, like Jan Allaerts or ZYX, but probably still thin, inner detail, and no connection to Sound.  Why else would people who are buying it appear so unable to describe what they hear.  I was really disappointed in Vinyl Engine.  However, I did send a long letter to the maker of the Mantis with very specific details about my experience with cartridges, what is lacking, and what I hope to achieve, asking him to describe where his cartridge may fall in this field.  I will see what he says.

 Romy the Cat wrote:
Where the case was made very strongly and a very serious level was the case about the Otophone Jubilee.  At this point I did not read any reviews and have seen only technical specification. Two people who pitched to me this cartridge very intelligently and very knowledgeably and informed descried to me the Jubilee specifics, the specifics in the areas that I would like to hear about. It sounds to me very interesting and at this moment the most convincing.
I agree.  The Ortofon will be a good choice, not the best choice in my taste, but a good choice.  Another that comes to my mind which I would choose for this arm is the Miyabi.  This cartridge also I believe addresses the problems you are trying to correct.  I had previously the Miyabi in my system as well, until I discovered the Decca London catrridges.  The more I think about it, the more I think you should definitely listen to the Miyabi, Romy.

PS If you come by to listen, I do smoke cigars also, so be prepared to enjoy a good smoke with the music.  THAT is why I have three air purifiers running! Wink

Regards,

Adrian
09-13-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,734
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 31
Post ID: 8243
Reply to: 8242
So many cartridges, so short life…

 drdna wrote:
The Decca London Reference appears ideal.  I am probably going to buy one of these. Romy, you are free to borrow it if you wish to listen to it; just do not break it. 

Possible it is a good cartridge, I do not know. The Rep insisted that my tonearm is crap and I must not to use it with Decca London Reference. Well, I have my own attitude as well and I discard anybody who feels that 3012 is not THE arm. Thanks, for the offer to try the Decca. Unfortunately I do not practice to borrow or to lend cartridges. I feel that cartridges are like underwear – it is belong a person and shell stay there.

 drdna wrote:
The question now for me is what second tonearm is appropriate.  Any suggestions. It will need to be neutral; maybe the Schroeder or the AirTangent? I rather like the linear tracking tonearm.  When I have heard it, the sound was complemented nicely.

If you plan to put the First Second Arm (!) then I strongly encourage going for mono arm. In my view it must be the mandatory 3012/3009 with SPU Mono. I seldom do “suggestions” but a mono arm is not arguable from how I see it. The linear tracking tonearm is cool but it might be the Third Arm…

 drdna wrote:
I do not believe it.  I think it is a very good MC cartridge, like Jan Allaerts or ZYX, but probably still thin, inner detail, and no connection to Sound.  Why else would people who are buying it appear so unable to describe what they hear.

I do not know what you believe or not as I did not express anything about Mantis – I clearly have no opinion.  The fact that people are unable to describe the sound I think is a good sign. What however distracted me from exploring the Mantis further was the publicity game of the guy who makes them. He is in the business of promoting his cartridges and builds the cliental of followers – that is cool, that is all manufacturers preacupated with.  The problem is that I do not play along in those games. If he build custom cartridges and claims some superior knowledge and skills then he need to demonstrate more integrity then kiss in ass any asshole he found for him profitable to kiss.  I have a number of manufactures cooperated with me on custom projects. They have skills, expertise and a desire to do advanced thighs. I have some listening expertise, advanced demeans, money to burn on the projects with unpredictable results and stupid enthusiasm to constantly engage myself in those projects. For me those projects is a process of collaboration where maker and user mutually discover the thighs, navigating results to the most advanced outcome possible under given conditions. I do not think that the Mantis guy is at the level what he might be interested in result only.  When he just started a few years back he was. How he was told by a few industry crooks that he is good and he feel himself extremely valuable.  He will go away over it in a few years but for a time being he too busy to collect the signatures of the people who have seen his penis under a magnifier glass. I feel it I too boring not only participate but even to watch. 

 drdna wrote:
I agree.  The Ortofon will be a good choice, not the best choice in my taste, but a good choice.

 Well, I juts a little afraid that it would be a good all around cartridge not the “hard-core” cartridge for my Reference Arm. If it be so then my Ref arm will be too close to my Second Stereo arm. What would be the “best choice”? Well, too much to ask for “best”… If I definitely know the answer I would go for it… I will be bitching anyhow, this way, asking people an advise - I will have somebody to blame…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-13-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
starboy
Posts 23
Joined on 09-11-2004

Post #: 32
Post ID: 8247
Reply to: 8243
Audio Relief

drdna wrote... the Mantis is probably still thin, inner detail and no connection to sound...

As you have never heard it please explain this not to me (as I write this just to amuse myself) but to yourself while smoking a Cohiba Esplendidos.

Romy wrote... He will go away over it in a few years...

That he may just like Fannie mac or whatever, until then I guess he will be hand making those carts in his workshop.

Fortunately, it is a far superior cartridge than the 901/SPU and as I am not gifted enough to hand make a saxophone in my shed it is time to go practice and make real sounds on my choice of purchase Selmer Mark 6 tenor. I hear that the hand made Mauriat tenors are superior... I guess I will have to blow one to find out. Naw, why bother when I can register on a forum ask someone else's opinion and talk to the manufacturer. Job done as it may have no connection to sound and will be gone in a few years as they suck **&*^ and create hype and noise trying to sell their bumbo clot, pussy clot and rass clot to rahted foolishness. (Sorry, the native Jamaican coming out in me)

I had below playing for extra light relief while writing...

http://www.televisiontunes.com/Different_Strokes.html

Seriously, I hope you both find the cart's you desire stress free with a big fat cigar to celebrate at the end of the rainbow/headshell.

p.s. Must also get a test ride of the new KTM RC8 race bike and ride it like I stole it before the bad weather sets in. Naw,...........

FIN ad finem; ad fin. To the end. ad finem fidelis. Faithful to the end. Ad finem spero. I hope to the last. ad finem ultimum. To the final end. ...

09-13-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,734
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 33
Post ID: 8249
Reply to: 8247
The guessing about the Mantis…

 starboy wrote:
Romy wrote... He will go away over it in a few years...

That he may just like Fannie mac or whatever, until then I guess he will be hand making those carts in his workshop.

Actually it was my typical mistype. I met to say “It will go away over it in a few years...”, referring that this attitude of him being a bellybutton of universe shell go away if the actual sound is something that he is interested in. If he is not a fool then he might understand eventually that a cheap popularity among users and recognition among industry is not something that reflects well on the actually sound of product. From the email that he sent to me it showed that he is not a fool, at least it was the way how he wanted to appear.

 starboy wrote:
Fortunately, it is a far superior cartridge than the 901/SPU …

Possible, with all my conversation about Mantis I do not remember I ever made any guess or assumption how it might sound.  In horns, I feel I am qualified to make sometimes very bold assessments with very high precession about the sound of the things without even listing the installation. I might do it because I know patterns and have an experience to hear many elements and the connections of the elements. In cartridges I am clueless about design element and the implication of design chooses to sound. For instance to me it sounds ridicules that he offers a selection of cantilevers, body and the tips. I do appreciate however that he assures the chose will not affect the sound of the cartridges. So, I would not make presumption how is sound as ‘drdna’ did. Perhaps he has his own reasons, perhaps he can share them.

I was trying to make some very bogus calculations and assumptions in my head from a few things that Andre told but I was not able to. Andre has 3012 tonearm that he does not like and prefer to Micro Seiki MA77 tonearm. I well know MA77 (I had all Micro arms), consider it a good arm but having it right along width 3012 I found that SME (with my typical incase of effective mass to 25-30g) is richer , way more superior in bass and less “shallow” of I might say so. All my foundlings were in context of my cartridges that are not Mantis but the same way all Andre’s foundlings were in context of his ported mini-monitors. So, how to reconcile all of it?  Do not forget that it is not a large company like Ortofone, Denon or AudioTechnica does a machine mass-production of cartridges where the technologic perfection is a way assures the repeatability of results. Mantis is homemade cartridge. The good part that Andre does it himself, not having a predation like with a dozen part time pregnant women like so of small manufactures in Japan. So, the result Mantis will have is very much the subordinate of Andre Hanekom’s mind… and the positioning of his loudspeakers in his room. So, try to figure out how the hell the Mantis cartridge would sound what you get it. I did read a few Andre posts at the WhinelEngine (oh, BTW the way I was banned from there, thanks God.) and I did not see him actually talks about the things that I would like to hear from him. So, go figure how it all work out…

Once again, I have no opinion on the Mantis sound.  You starboy has it and it is very nice, in fact you attention to Mantis was something that very much intrigue me, and keep intriguing. Now, between the BSO seasons, I have a very short period on my interests in cartridges, what I looking another one to replace my 901. After I get cartridges the window of my interest will be closed and for a long time (it is what I hope). There were a number of cartridges that made case for me during the window interest; the Mantis did not make the strong case. Perhaps it is not the problem of Mantis itself but the fucking idiots from VenalEngine that came along with the Mantis story. I do not know. I did not have a good feeling about it but I did not any good evidences as well. If that Andre with his desire to make custom cartridges would live next town over and would willing to go for a custom projects of “Super Mantis” then it might be interesting but in what he expressed so far I saw in him no credentials to recruit him for such a project.  I do not say that he has not I say that I did not see it. All that I saw was quite a hypocrisy between his “performance” at public site (where he develops his clientele) and his judgment/opineons expressed in his private emails. It was as far as I am willing to comment on this subject.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-13-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
starboy
Posts 23
Joined on 09-11-2004

Post #: 34
Post ID: 8250
Reply to: 8249
Internet entertainment....
I would have left this alone but the facts and truth will out...

1) The Mantis was well known to me and others around me before Andre joined V.E. though maybe not to you Americans.

2) There are possibly 2 owners other than myself on V.E. (with its tens of thousands of members) who own a Mantis. B50 was also requested not to review the cart' on the site. I myself did so though he did not want it... (Seeing this commotion he was right and I was wrong). Also, if that is the place to pimp a product then the b__ch will never have your money. It is though a very very good site regardless of a few baboons and I noticed even you made contributions to other threads.

3) I was priviledged to gain testimonials I could verify away from V.E. from owners in S.A., USA and Europe. Some of the cartridges these owners owned and moved away from were beyond my dreams I may say. I also know Andre has heard his Mantis in much larger than my audio installation.

4) The Mantis was purchased based on the sound that I heard and not internet hype which sadly is how I attained a 901. (It was cheap, what can I say but it did deliver during its tenure but I will never buy a cartridge this way again).

5) Yes, I feel if so many did not approach the thread things may have been different, alas...

Anyway, one less person in the queue for my rarer than a unicorn Gaiac wood version....

Let's keep it small and bespoke like a Saville Row suit... If you've never had one made for yourself I can't explain..

Peace
09-13-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,257
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 35
Post ID: 8251
Reply to: 8243
The more you say
Romy, by your own words you are concerned that the Jubilee is not a "hard tracer".  Well, loosen up those purse strings and take a gander at the MC Windfeld, a "Super-Jubilee" with a super-polished iteration of the hard-tracing "Replicant" stylus that has all the "reviewers" struggling for adjectives.  Besides the obvious absence of "bling", all the reviewers incidentally mention that it would be the choice for transcribing LPs to digital.  I have heard that this cartridhge actually measures dead flat, which is so rare for an MC, let alone an expensive MC, and this despite tha fact that Ortofon's own evaluation trials tell them that audiences "prefer" a tipped-up high end.  I have no idea what "niche" this cartridge is aimed at, but it certainly appears to be more user-friendly than my 3000 II.  Output is higher and tracking is stellar.

BTW, if you buy one, can I borrow it?

Best regards,
Paul S
09-13-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,734
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 36
Post ID: 8252
Reply to: 8250
The Mantis Shmantis…., Stressing and tuning…

 starboy wrote:
I would have left this alone but the facts and truth will out...

1) The Mantis was well known to me and others around me before Andre joined V.E. though maybe not to you Americans.

2) There are possibly 2 owners other than myself on V.E. (with its tens of thousands of members) who own a Mantis. B50 was also requested not to review the cart' on the site. I myself did so though he did not want it... (Seeing this commotion he was right and I was wrong). Also, if that is the place to pimp a product then the b__ch will never have your money. It is though a very very good site regardless of a few baboons and I noticed even you made contributions to other threads.

3) I was priviledged to gain testimonials I could verify away from V.E. from owners in S.A., USA and Europe. Some of the cartridges these owners owned and moved away from were beyond my dreams I may say. I also know Andre has heard his Mantis in much larger than my audio installation.

4) The Mantis was purchased based on the sound that I heard and not internet hype which sadly is how I attained a 901. (It was cheap, what can I say but it did deliver during its tenure but I will never buy a cartridge this way again).

5) Yes, I feel if so many did not approach the thread things may have been different, alas...

Anyway, one less person in the queue for my rarer than a unicorn Gaiac wood version....

Let's keep it small and bespoke like a Saville Row suit... If you've never had one made for yourself I can't explain..


Well, why you, starboy, can write an intelligent and lucid comment ON THE SUBJECT of the Mantis but a dozen of the idiots from Vinyl Engine (the community that Andre support and endorse) cannot?

Anyhow, since we were talking about Mantis there is one moment that I felt “and issues” while I spoke with Andre. This is a pure my “common sense” and it might not have any practical meaning; however it was what was in my head. I did not ask Andre over the telephone and I did not follow up about it on the sire or in email. Still, if I decided to pursue the Mantis cartridge then I would consider this moment and would be trying to obtain a satisfaction.

Andre told and you can see it on the picture that his cartridge has bolt somewhere in the mid of the body. This bold serves as copyright protection devise and this bolt also fine tunes some specific aspects of sound, stressing the cartridge body in a certain way. That is fine and I used the very same approach in my former version of Super Melquiades I was trying to comfort the buzzing of the multiple power transformers and chokes on the metal steel chassis. I had a large locking bolt driven across the whole chassis to the opposite wall and having all transformers and chokes rung I was turning a nut on this bold tuning off the harmonics of the noise. It was very effective, but I did detect that after a few hours when the power supply was getting hot I need to retune the tightness of the bolt.

So, let pretend that Mantis used the same idea and let presume that when Andre relies the cartridge it is perfectly tuned in accordance… to Andre’s playback. Sure any further influences (stresses) that might impact the perfections of the Mantis’ bolt tightness would be minor BUT the amplitude of the tightness change I presume need to be VERY minor in order to set Mantis off the “perfect Andre’s original setting of the bolt”. Let see what might stress a cartridge body:

1) Temperature. I think 10-15 degree of Fahrenheit are reasonable in listening room, would it affect sound of the fine-tuned bolt?

2) Force with which the bolts attached Mantis to it’s headshell.

3) The natural release of the cartridge body’s bolt (if it is not stooped by various menace)

I is possible that it is all not important but I think it is the issues and I do not like the idea of fastidious tuning of body of the cartridge by well-intended stress. I did not see anybody raised this question, so I did…

Rgs, the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-13-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 512
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 37
Post ID: 8254
Reply to: 8249
My wild guesses and conjectures about cartridges.
 Romy the Cat wrote:

Possible, with all my conversation about Mantis I do not remember I ever made any guess or assumption how it might sound.  In horns, I feel I am qualified to make sometimes very bold assessments with very high precession about the sound of the things without even listing the installation. I might do it because I know patterns and have an experience to hear many elements and the connections of the elements. In cartridges I am clueless about design element and the implication of design chooses to sound. For instance to me it sounds ridicules that he offers a selection of cantilevers, body and the tips. I do appreciate however that he assures the chose will not affect the sound of the cartridges. So, I would not make presumption how is sound as ‘drdna’ did. Perhaps he has his own reasons, perhaps he can share them.

I was trying to make some very bogus calculations and assumptions in my head from a few things that Andre told but I was not able to. Andre has 3012 tonearm that he does not like and prefer to Micro Seiki MA77 tonearm. I well know MA77 (I had all Micro arms), consider it a good arm but having it right along width 3012 I found that SME (with my typical incase of effective mass to 25-30g) is richer , way more superior in bass and less “shallow” of I might say so. All my foundlings were in context of my cartridges that are not Mantis but the same way all Andre’s foundlings were in context of his ported mini-monitors. So, how to reconcile all of it?

The Cat


Yes, this is exactly right.  Since I used to work in a high end audio store (helping to repair things, not sell them) many years ago, and since then have had the privilege to listen to many many set-ups and particularly a lot of cartridges.  It is from this experience, I can guess (and it is only a guess) about what a cartridge may sound like.

The clues are in the manufacturer's stereo set-up which he uses to listen, which gives some clues about his objectives, as well as the specific design he implements into the cartridge, since these are elements which other cartridges I have heard have some of and which impart a certain advantage and disadvantage to the sound.

One can also guess based on comments from the buyers of the Mantis about what cartridges the move from and why they do it. And I did send some private e-mail to Andre asking him some specifics about the Mantis as well.

Of course, it is just conjecture.  To know, one must finally actually listen.  However, it is an educated guess, based on many years of listening to different cartridges and getting a feel for what the sellers and manufacturers mean when they say things in the context about the improvements.

From what I have heard said, the Mantis is probably a really great cartridge and would be an excellent replacement for Shelter in some respects but will also lose some of the special Shelter magic, but it will remain doing so within the limitations of the MC design.

Well,now I will go back and finish my Cohiba Espelndido. Wink

Regards,
Adrian
09-14-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
starboy
Posts 23
Joined on 09-11-2004

Post #: 38
Post ID: 8257
Reply to: 8254
Plan B

Romy

 The bridge has burned down and please revoke my membership to this forum.

 Drdna

 I knew many a Tenor player that could improvise and move a jazz loving person to an inner experience.

 When younger I would ask them how they achieved this…. They could not explain…. I’d take lessons from them…. They could not teach.

 Being arrogant I slightly blamed and criticised them for my inability to progress to the status I deserved.

 Alas, in time I realised it was my frustration in not being able to play to their standard and my own inability to understand what was being taught.

 I feared I would make a ‘sound’ only myself and others who did not want to offend me would listen to.

 They were recognised in their craft and who was I to criticise them. They had made sacrifices for my enjoyment and if I wanted to do the same for others, well that was obvious.

 The best lesson that I received was to humbly accept humility within that community.

Sayonara
09-14-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,734
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 39
Post ID: 8258
Reply to: 8257
Everyone at their own...

 starboy wrote:
  The bridge has burned down and please revoke my membership to this forum.

Hm, what bridge? What burned down? Are you become a member of some kind of engrossment cult? Very sad. Anyhow, there is no “membership” at this forum. Everyone at their own…. If you find that you have no interest to what expressed around here then unsubscribe the threads as stop posting. I personally would like you to stick around as I find your contribution is valuable, at least to me but you are free to do whatever benefits and pleases you.

Sayonara and good luck with your “planning”….
The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-25-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,734
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 40
Post ID: 8382
Reply to: 8161
The Ortofone Jubilee is here.
It is actually sound like a promising cartridges and it does not sound like nether SPU nor Shelter

Before mounting I made a few shots of the needle to see how it will be wearing. Where is the best place to keep the pictures as not at my site? At the fifths pictures from above it is very nicely seen the very tip of the needle when it is new.




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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