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11-30-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
nl
Posts 14
Joined on 06-15-2008

Post #: 21
Post ID: 9025
Reply to: 5003
Sakuma's place
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have visited Sakuma's restaurant myself.

You don't need to travel to Japan to know that stock Altec A5s and Lowther-based designs from the 1960s basically run in the 70hz-12000hz range. They are in mono, and not particularly well-placed. That is merely the given.

I don't think Sakuma has the opinion that mono is better than stereo. Setting up a pair of A5s would be all-but-impossible in his environment, certainly if one also wanted to listed to some Lowther designs as well. So, the decision to go mono allows him to do that. Also, it allows him to build very exotic amplifiers with tremendous numbers of parts, which would be of course twice and expensive and twice as hard to build if you had to do two of them all the time.

I myself listened to mono for a while, largely for the same reasons. I had a small apartment, but wanted to use a big speaker. Also, I wanted to build a variety of amplifiers without having to do everything twice.

I would say, and I think that Sakuma would agree, that this can be a satisfying strategy, if you have similar constraints and interests. However, I now listed to two channels like everyone else.

Within that context, Sakuma has built a number of amplifiers that he enjoys. Maybe others do not enjoy the same thing, but he has built enough of them now (note: about 40x more than Romy has) that I think we can say that he has accomplished what he wanted to accomplish.

Systems like these are all about understanding the emotional content of the music, not about Sound.
11-30-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 499
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 22
Post ID: 9028
Reply to: 9025
Sound and emotion
fiogf49gjkf0d
 nl wrote:
Systems like these are all about understanding the emotional content of the music, not about Sound.
So, I take it you are saying that this system is more focused on a specific level of the 7-level perceptual paradigm? If so, is there such a thing as a system balanced to all 7 levels?

Adrian
11-30-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,617
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 23
Post ID: 9031
Reply to: 9028
Sakuma and his sound.
fiogf49gjkf0d
At the 7-level perceptual paradigm was operating not Sakuma by Cho-sun for Micro-Seiki. Sakuma was not operating in my view at any level but just listed highly band-passed, highly compressed gray sound. Nl, feels that “Systems like these are all about understanding the emotional content of the music, not about Sound.” I disagree. To do what Sakuma did it is enough a table or car audio - one do not need practice high-end and to make many thousands dollars worth amps to get the Sakuma’s sound. Get rid from any sound 3-2 top and 3-4 lower octaves, compress it and …. You will we searching not Sound but the understanding of the emotional content. I hate to say it but the ugly women are always very spiritual… BTW, nl, Romy is not in the business to build amplifiers, I would rather do not build the one that I had.

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=1959

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-11-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
mmhifi
Israel
Posts 3
Joined on 12-12-2008

Post #: 24
Post ID: 9135
Reply to: 9031
Ugly women
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have near friend and he builds amps based on Sakuma ideas. They are nothing but compressed and band-limited. Quite opposite - wonderful tone, even balance, low-level detail and killing bass. His (and Sakuma?) theory is transformers provide optimal loading for tubes and therefore optimal energy transfer + noise rejection. Hence tone,bass and detail. The key is trans quality - he uses Tamura/Tango only. My own amps were built by him too. And I must say I know of quite a few spiritual women which are really really beautiful... And some ugly ones which are severely band-limited...
12-12-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,617
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 25
Post ID: 9138
Reply to: 9135
I disagree with your assessment of Sakuma theory….
fiogf49gjkf0d

 …the theory that you not correctly presented BTW. Is it in an amp with a half-dozen series transformers Sakuma has the “killing bass”?  The Sakuma amps are bandwidth limited by default, it is what BTW Sakuma went to DSET to fight the bandwidth limitations. Even him with severely bandwidth-imitated playback and with amazingly bandwidth-dear sources (did you even used Denon-102?) felt that he needs wider bandwidth. BTW, there is not such a thing as “optimal loading for tubes and therefore optimal energy transfer + noise rejection”. All those stories were invented by the marketing guy who use to runs the “Direct Heating” magazine and who invited the whole Sakuma myth. The same goes with Tamura/Tango. They are not particularly good transformers (I mean the nowadays mass-production) – they just the pop-transformers of Japanese market. If they were made in Canada then they would be called Hammond…

Anyhow, I am glad that “Sakuma ideas” in amplification works for you. I think you are wrong in assessment of Sakuma sound but I would not argue with you. You always have an opportunity to discover that there is something “more open” out there.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-12-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
mmhifi
Israel
Posts 3
Joined on 12-12-2008

Post #: 26
Post ID: 9140
Reply to: 9138
Be careful
fiogf49gjkf0d

...you are too categorical and are on the boundary to be phanatical... Everybody and his ears. You can be sure I listened and owned many kinds of amps and my friend built some 40-50 non-Sakuma amps before he began with trans coupling and built another 40-50 ones. My sources are very good and tweaked to death and my speakers are microscopes and not particularly tube-friendly(Tannoy recommends 300w SS in documentation). No problems for my 50w Sakuma-like PP with Tamura iron.
The words about Tamura and Tango are real stand-up thank you. Few day ago I finished Joseph Flavius and don't want another Jews war here - so please - tone down my friend...

12-12-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,617
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 27
Post ID: 9142
Reply to: 9140
Is it about Sakuma or about you?
fiogf49gjkf0d

I am categorical but very much not phanatical, it is interesting that you brought phanatisizm in context of Sakuma discussion. I am categorical in the facts about the sound that Sakuma demonstrated, and allegedly continue demonstrate via his “phanatic” followers. I might see some justifications of it in some aspects of Sakuma cultural and technical circumstances but I do not see interests to dig it deeper. For me the Sakuma’s “ideas” of the ideas of somebody who built 6020534 amplifiers is equally irrelevant, I have my own ideas with which I am comfortable. It is not to mention that someone who built hundreds amps usually is absolutely clueless about sound.

Mmhifi, you might take personally whatever makes you to feel better but it has nothing to with facts. Anyone who has very rudimental understanding of transformers instead of admiration to a fictional character might recognize what I am taking about. Ironically, I am not against transformer coupling. I juts has no idea why anything about Sakuma has to do with “interesting” transformer-related sound.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-12-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 499
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 28
Post ID: 9144
Reply to: 9142
Interesting transformers
fiogf49gjkf0d
 mmhifi wrote:
I finished Joseph Flavius and don't want another Jews war here - so please - tone down my friend

Yes, be careful, Romy, or you may have to ban yourself. Big Smile
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Anyone who has very rudimental understanding of transformers instead of admiration to a fictional character might recognize what I am taking about. Ironically, I am not against transformer coupling. I juts has no idea why anything about Sakuma has to do with “interesting” transformer-related sound.
So, what is interesting transformer related sound?
Adrian
12-12-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,617
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 29
Post ID: 9147
Reply to: 9144
Transformers and bandwidth, + my stupid gullibility.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 I do know why it is necessary for anybody tell you anything – use your own judgment. Leaving aside the advantages and disadvantages of transformer coupling use you own common sense to think about the bandwidth of the transformers loaded with series magnetics. We are all agree that SET amp with output transformer have challenge with bandwidth. Better lower end is problematic for high end and vice versa. So, a mandatory output transformer from a perspective bandwidth might be viewed as a band-path filter. Now, we have not one output transformer but input transformer, coupling transformers or a series of band-path filters, which makes the band-path of very high order. Surely the input transformers and coupling transformers is much easier to make wide bandwidth but then the phase shifts at HF begin to bubble up and a few other things…  Ok let me I will give you an interesting lead:  did anybody pay attention that all coupling transformers-loaded amplifiers (among those that I heard) sound in a similar way as the amps with high voltage output tube that run over 1KV on plate. Did you ever think why?

Anyhow, I under no circumstances would like people to have this post as some kind of anti-coupling transformers post. There is nothing wrong with transformers coupling. But in anything shell be a reasonable sense. Yes, “some” transformer might “improve” sound and there are even freaks that put after bad SS amps a good 1:1 transformer to cure the SS nastiness. However, I do see a lot of “sense” in Sakuma-style transformers using. I refuse to accept not the topological the circuitry decisions but the actual sound that I heard via those amps. Was it due to the transformers or due to many other things that Sakuma did? I have no idea. However, it was very huge disassociation between the BS that was spreading about him, my expectation and the actual not even sound but rather the way how he was trying to get sound. There was something extremely sloppy in what he did. It was kind of almost “as is” or accidental sound, in addition to be very poor sound and I did not recognize a lot of thoughts behind this sound.

I do not know why I was bitching about it. Most of the people are getting home accidental sound and when I witness it I do not complain – I know that they are accidental people in audio. Sakuma, however, was sold to me differently and I properly do not feel good about my stupid gullibility…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-12-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 499
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 30
Post ID: 9148
Reply to: 9147
Need for a systematic approach
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
did anybody pay attention that all coupling transformers-loaded amplifiers (among those that I heard) sound in a similar way as the amps with high voltage output tube that run over 1KV on plate. Did you ever think why?
I know I am very ignorant on this idea, but why do you say it is the case? Would you then suggest that this approach demands the DSET approach to succeed?

 Romy the Cat wrote:
Yes, “some” transformer might “improve” sound and there are even freaks that put after bad SS amps a good 1:1 transformer to cure the SS nastiness.
By good transformer, you mean an amorphous core?

 Romy the Cat wrote:
I refuse to accept not the topological the circuitry decisions but the actual sound that I heard via those amps. Was it due to the transformers or due to many other things that Sakuma did? I have no idea.
Exactly correct, but just why I have suggested a systematic approach to analyze the effects of different components in certain topological components. If from a collection of disparate observations, theory can emerge, then we do not need to continue to rely on accidental good sound.

Adrian
12-13-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,617
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 31
Post ID: 9150
Reply to: 9148
The Ginsu Knifes syndrome?
fiogf49gjkf0d

 drdna wrote:
Would you then suggest that this approach demands the DSET approach to succeed?

The DSET resolves all problems with SET amplification; it is not surprise that Sakuma went there. BTW, my familiarity with Sakuma’s DSET was something that encouraged me to thing in DSET direction.

 drdna wrote:
By good transformer, you mean an amorphous core?

Why necessarily amorphous? A good transformer is the one that sounds good in context of a given requirements and expectations, regardless what core was used. BTW, I think Tango and Tamura did amorphous core lone time back. I do not claim negative thing about Tango/Tamura, I just say that they are regular Japanese transformers. Regular US transformer (likes from Electra-Print, Plitron and so on) are ugly but Tango/Tamura finished in sexy enclosures. This made many audio people to feel that Tango/Tamura are some kind of piece of exotic Asian magnetics. It is not necessarily the case. I personally never had those transformers but I have a number of people who were solicited with the same stories about samurai transformers. They did not report that they were “bad” but rather as nothing spherical. Hearing it from the peoples who spend very heavy attention to the transformers I found that it was corralling with what I heard from the amps the used the contemporary Tango/Tamura. I have no doubts that Tango/Tamura might do some high-end or custom magnetics but we, the western people have no asses to it or knowledge about it. I would not be surprised BTW is nowadays the Tango/Tamura use the Chinese transformers rebranded as the  Tango/Tamura as I have seen a number of amazingly cheap Chinese transformers that looks remarkably similar to what Tango/Tamura does.

 drdna wrote:
  Exactly correct, but just why I have suggested a systematic approach to analyze the effects of different components in certain topological components. If from a collection of disparate observations, theory can emerge, then we do not need to continue to rely on accidental good sound.

I might not agree complete with it but I do found that the concept properly implemented might be semi-educational if not entertaining. I already am thinking about it and probably next week will try to put some kind of prototype in place.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-11-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,617
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 32
Post ID: 11953
Reply to: 4851
The Sakuma Audio Concert
fiogf49gjkf0d

“The Official Concert in Celebration of the 70th Anniversary of the Founding of Tateyama City. The Sakuma demonstrates his amplifiers in an ancient temple in Tateyama city. Altec A5 speaker system driven by his amplifiers (845, 211, 6336A etc) reproduces Jazz, classical music, chanson and Japanese popular music…”

http://www10.big.or.jp/~dh/

An interesting concept to have an “Audio Concert” but I do not think that they demonstrated interesting Sound. It is not that I am not a big fun of Sakuma vision but rather I feel that they stress just an importance of amplification that is as dams as the importance of just cable elevators. Still, to have a City Board of Education sponsor an audio concert in ancient temple is might be a cool idea. The guy who runs the DIRECT HEATING is a tough marketing guys, so I am sure that video clips will be available on YouTube soon.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-14-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jarnu
Posts 2
Joined on 11-16-2018

Post #: 33
Post ID: 25188
Reply to: 11953
Susumu Sakuma has passed away
FYI The news On Sunday, December 13, Mr. Sakuma who was hospitalized due to poor physical condition passed away. Wednesday, funeral Date and time Tuesday (18th) Wednesday from 18 o'clock Wednesday (19th) Farewell ceremony From 12:30 Place Tateyama shi Yamauchi Rokusaburo shop Tateyama funa
12-14-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 499
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 34
Post ID: 25189
Reply to: 25188
R.I.P. Sakuma-san
The famed audio designer was working on new audio designs until the end, which continued to be published in MJ, the Japanese audio journal. I'm sad to hear of his passing. I feel fortunate to have been able to meet him and spend time listening to some of his amplifiers at his tiny cafe in Tayeyama, Japan (Which was packed full of amplifiers and horn loudspeakers)! He did not follow the conventions that many look for in audiophile amplifiers, but he was able to extract the special strengths of each tube's unique characteristics and highlight them with his circuit designs.

Here I am with Sakuma in his cafe. He was particularly delighted with my wife, who is a jazz trumpet player and vocalist:
https://imgur.com/a/VpivYXN 

Here is a nice video about Sakuma-san:
https://youtu.be/n_b4GpqNB7k

12-16-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,617
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 35
Post ID: 25190
Reply to: 25189
Indeed, a sad news.
Indeed, a sad news. The Sakuma was not the person from whom I channel inspirations in audio but the man was certainly driven by own interesting ideas. My favorite about his idea to build an amplifier and to set it at the dining table while it is being built. According to Sakuma the amplifier will witness and embrace the humanity of people itself and will would more human-like. Definitely for the visions like this a person should receive Noble price in audio. Still, I did not experience the things when I visited Sakuma-san. It might be a language barrier or perhaps I was not in state of mind in that time when I was not able to perceive a finer things. Another factor is that information about Sakuma come to me over the people who were lying most of their life and very much wiling to invent stories and facts. Sakuma was a very minor ploy in their general stream of deception and mystification. So I have no idea if what I know about Sakuma is true or not. I personal pilgrimage to Sakuma place, as I said, was not so inspiring. 
 
Saying all of it I need to admit that Sakuma-san death, equally to the death of any other audio famed person of his generation is a great equalizer of audio ideas, notions and philosophies. We are so much so equal and so vulnerable in front of death that to a degree it makes differences between us so small and so pathetic. So, reset on peace Sakuma-san and my deepest sympathies to his family, his friends and his followers. It would be very interesting of somebody who truly know Sakuma-san, and not somebody who just popularized him, would write (in English) ups an extended audio biography of Sakuma-san with thoughtful presentation of Sakuma’s views, ideas, objectives, methodologies, etc… I have my doubts that it will happen as the people who has voice in audio write mostly to move shipping boxes and if the Sakuma analyzer would be done with objective to sell remaining Sakuma inventory then it will be written garbage unworthy reading. The proper writing and analyses of Sakuma-san work need to be done with no marketing reason and only as a labor of love. I feel it was the way how Sakuma-san operated as I did not detected in him any typical profiting tendencies.  
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-16-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,617
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 36
Post ID: 25191
Reply to: 25190
A link.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/16845323@N07/sets/72157622408731780/page1



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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