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  »  New  Barn Conversion - James' Project..  The vintage vs. contemporary compression driver....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     28  264185  02-04-2007
  »  New  Bye-Bye, Fane..  The new Studio 8M users....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     107  749672  03-08-2007
  »  New  A right midbass solution for Altec 515G...  Its even possible to make my midbass......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     21  133429  05-06-2007
  »  New  Jessie Dazzle Project..  Will this better to be auditable?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     172  1144004  08-03-2007
  »  New  The 60-inch LF driver...  And here is a good tube for a powerful SET :-)...  Audio Discussions  Forum     1  37554  03-17-2008
  »  New  Help to identify the LF driver...  Shell I install some kind of finding award? I might…...  Audio Discussions  Forum     2  19440  09-06-2008
  »  New  The sound compromises of high efficiency direct radiato..  Well yes, but ......  Audio Discussions  Forum     8  49830  01-05-2009
  »  New  Constructing LF modules to the limits..  The little glory of my small woofers....  Audio Discussions  Forum     54  335768  04-28-2009
  »  New  How to select mid/upper bass horn drivers...  How to select mid/upper bass horn drivers....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  18412  08-25-2009
  »  New  Discussions and experience with specific drivers..  Discussions and experience with specific drivers...  Audio Discussions  Forum     0  184  08-24-2018
04-08-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Knightcrawler
Posts 3
Joined on 07-07-2006

Post #: 21
Post ID: 4187
Reply to: 4162
nbc
 NBC wrote:
Hi Romy,

1) What dimensions for 1808 baffle would you suggest?
The Golden rule is: 1.6 height, 1.0 width, 0.6 depth.


2) Is floor-firing vs. front-facing cone useful or preferred?
I wouldn't use the 1808 or 8196 in a floor firing sub, to much turbulance and resistance.


I believe you wrote LF channels should be placed in arc outside midbass channels.
It would depend on the crossover point and room accoustics.

3) Any *general tips* about placement of 1808 cone(s), in relation to midbass horn channel (e.g., time alignment) and room boundaries?
I've always like the subs to be in front and close to where the mid and highs are coming from, even though bass is slower and will arrive at the listener position later if a time delay is not used.

4) Your thoughts about digital equalization (DEQ2496) for <50Hz subwoofer channel ONLY?
Eq's are great to smooth nasty peaks or to provide a little bump at the low end. Less is more when it comes to eq's, better to build the best enclosure for the enviroment that you can then trying to fix it with a eq.

Regards,
Neil
04-08-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 22
Post ID: 4188
Reply to: 4187
Delay of LF
Knightcrawler wrote :

"...I've always like the subs to be in front and close to where the mid and highs are coming from, even though bass is slower and will arrive at the listener position later if a time delay is not used..."

This must be correct ; an example of this is the fact that we hear the "crack" before the "boom" resulting from distant lightening.

However, tanking into account that the speed of sound is constant for all frequencies, can anyone recommend a text (or better yet, a link) which clearly explains this perceived delay of LF?

Thanks in advance,

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
07-17-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Sandberg
Posts 1
Joined on 07-17-2008

Post #: 23
Post ID: 7831
Reply to: 2517
PD.2150 ?
I know this is an oooold thread, but how about the Precision Devices PD.2150? It has good LF capabilities and is reasonably priced for such a huge driver. It even has a new neodymium sister (PDN.2151), if the weight is an issue (it is absolutely huge).

vH pH
07-17-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
chaos
Vienna
Posts 23
Joined on 06-27-2008

Post #: 24
Post ID: 7832
Reply to: 4188
Absorbtion of different frequences..
hi jezzie!
i think, in case of thunder its only the "crack" that comes from the lightning, the "boom" is just the "echo". maybe this is interesting for you. as we can see, not only bad electricity destroys good sound, its also the changes in the air in our listening room;-(

btw, following your project, you do a great job!

cheers,klaus
10-30-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 25
Post ID: 8661
Reply to: 7832
Bad Shopping (sour grapes)...
fiogf49gjkf0d
LOTs of time pretty much wasted lately, looking at "HE" direct-radiator drivers that are actually only HE at their uppermost frequencies, with diving responses and large-to-huge power "ratings" that allow the "pros" to simply turn up the heat to get anything approaching LF via ANY means.  Also, and at least as annoying, even smaller upper bass/mid drivers have the same rising-with frequency curves that make their "efficiency ratings" silly, at least in practical terms, or when viewed in the context of HE and/or the putative useage of the driver in question.  And it looks like the adoption of the stupid "piston"/giant-X-max concept is about total, with "old-style drivers being discontinued right and left.

I have said often enough that I would prefer to use a 10" driver for MF, but the Lowther, with all its warts, is the only thing I have been able to work into something ending up 97 dB.  NOw, looking to up the efficiency ante, Are TRUE HE drivers really so rare?

Is a dearth of HE direct-radiator drivers going to force me back into giant horns?

Isn't it enough that I have to make my own speakers?  Do I have to start making my own damn drivers, too?

Paul S
06-10-2009 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 26
Post ID: 10743
Reply to: 2515
Exceptional loudspeakers drivers: 2-inchers
fiogf49gjkf0d

This is about the Focal Utopia TN51 tweeter....

It is hard to imagine not much I like this tweeter, in fact there is something insanely beautiful in this tweeter and from a certain perspective (narrow-certain) I like it even more then the HF of my Macondo.

I first was introduced to this tweeter in 1997 I believe. At that time I was driving Acura TL with horrible audio system and I decided to do something about it (it was my first and last parley in car audio). I got a hybrid amplifier from and bought Focal Utopia 165W set. The local guys put it all in and I have to tell you – it was quite good sound.

The lease on that Acura TL was over; I put the Focal Utopia set in a box and dump it to my storage. I decided do not modify audio on my next leased cars.  In ten year, playing with different solution for MiniMe I stumbled up the box with the Focal Utopia tweeter. I just for fun stick into the tweeter into my monitor and I was VERY surprised how wonderful it was. In fact for a couple month listening I almost dally pay attention that the tweeter does very interesting job and server it purpose superbly.

What attracts me in this tweeter? There are two factors.

First is dynamic. It is VERY surprising. The driver is 94dB sensitivity – sort of nothing special. However, I with my 109 sensitive Macondo feel absolutely no dynamic deficiency at HF when I listen the MiniMe with the Focal Utopia tweeter. There is only one know to me speaker that has low efficiency abut subjectively it does not impact me as a dynamic-restricted – it is Wilson Grand Slam/Alexandria. I have written before that dynamically the “biggest” Wilsons are sort of mystery of audio as they define the common rule of 94dB/sensitivity vs. the 94dB/auditable. Surprise, surprise but the “biggest” Wilsons use the same tweeter. I do not know if it is the absolutely the same model (visually they are the same) but they are certainly from the “same barrel”. The result is VERY attractive: the 93dB sensitive MiniMe sit next to the 109dB sensitive Macondo and I feel no Macondo advantage at HF in trim of dymick superiority. There are many aspects in HF that MiniMe can’t handle compare to Macondo but in the realms of subjective HF dymick the MiniMe with Focal Utopia tweeter hold its own VERY dignifying.

The second is the character of HF. Knowing well the sound of Wilsons Grand Slam and Alexandria I have to tell you that 75% of what I like in there is something that I today attribute to the Focal Utopia tweeter. The bigger Wilsons and MiniMe has that very special effect of “graining” sound. It is like you put a very fine artificial texture over the sound and this “texture” kind of increase the sharpness of the sonic presentation. It does not sound good, right? Right, but the key is HOW it done. Any artificial “super texture” shall be bad but the way in which the Focal Utopia tweeter doe it does not strike me as negative, quite in opposite.

Interesting that Focal uses that same tweeter in this Utopia and Grand Utopia like but in there the tweeter doe not sound as good as in the Wilsons or in MiniMe. I have no knowledge why, or a desire to investigate this subject.

The tweeter itself is in was ridicules and it is not something there I would expect an interesting sound might come from. It is a textured titanium inverted dome 49mm. It has neodymium ring magnet and the 20mm voice coil is dumped by ferrofluid. It has typical power handling of 15W with 150W of maximum. The dome is very interestingly suspended – in very long foam. I think this VERY long foam suspension and very interesting textured ripples on the dome were something that makes the tweeter to sound different.

Mind you: the sound of the Focal Utopia TN51 tweeter is not something that I would call “neutral” as it has no adaptable qualities. It has own character but that is VERY impressive character – for what I consider the Focal Utopia TN51 tweeter as a very much an exceptional driver.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-11-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 161
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 27
Post ID: 10761
Reply to: 10743
Focal tweeter
fiogf49gjkf0d
I think Utopia is alittle soft with less sharpness than wilson , I have no idea but maybe one of the reasons is internal wiring of utopia.
personally i prefer wilson but in this level of difference maybe choosing right cable and upstream help compensating.

focal tweeter is smooth with a sense of pleasure but it could sound more real and alive without exaggerated sharpness.
07-13-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 28
Post ID: 11056
Reply to: 2522
This Vitavox 15-incher....
fiogf49gjkf0d

A few months back a guy from Europe showed up at this site proposing to sell a set Vitavox K15/40 and Vitavox S2 drivers. I did not need them, I have my own stash, not one looks like needed us as well. In a couple months he reinstated that the drivers are still for sale. I did not need them but because I am perhaps an idiots who cannot pass this thing like this I extended to the guy an aggressive contra-offer, he accepted it....

Today I got the shipment from Denmark and decided to expect it. The S2 with the “narrow” horn was fine but the driver was something very different. I need to preface that I know Vitavox 15-inchers very well. I played extensively and own a few pairs of K15/40 and 151 drivers. I played with other Vitavox 15-inchers but decided do not keep them. The drivers I keep I consider the most interesting 15-inchers ever made sonically and I keep them for the times when I have room for my 45Hz bass horn. This new K15/40 from Holland was beyond my expectations and in the history of my drivers I will like to give to it like to the case with Struds, his own name – the Netherlandian K15/40.

I thought that was spoiled with my Vitavox 15-inchers but the Netherlandian opened a new definition of being spoiled. The Netherlandian came in original wooden box were it was sitting for 55 years. The driver is never use and the screen on the dust cap has even not dirt on it. The box itself is very cool thing as it made from a gyroscopic wood.  That keep the cone very dry and not saggy as most of the vintage drivers are is they are not installed in speakers.

I took it from the box and did what I usually do with all my bass drivers – I taped the cone, scratched it with my nail, listening how the driver will response. The sound the Netherlandian responseed with was the best bass I ever heard in my live in audio. It had that amassing tone of the Davidov cello – superbly crisp, superbly soft with smoked overtones and mysterious depth of harmonics reminding nothing else then the mysterious of Mona Lisa’s smile.  To scratched the Netherlandian driver and listen what it did with Sound was a completely separate esthetical pleasure… and this was what I did for a next hour. I sit on my couch, took a nice cigar, shut down my playback, hug the Netherlandian driver and spent a good hour of quality time, scratching the driver’s cone, listening how it response with own unique sound. The Netherlandian is not a transducer but it is in was a very fine musical instrument…

I so would like to put the Netherlandian in use sometimes…. Sometime it will happen…

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-21-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 144
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 29
Post ID: 17207
Reply to: 11056
One good 10" midwoofer driver
fiogf49gjkf0d
I would like to add this driver to a good driver list:

HiVi D10G 10" Kevlar/Paper Woofer, it is sold at parts-express.com and it was one of a few drivers that I ordered for a personal shoot-out. Ignoring the fact that it is yellow and that it makes huffing noises thought the back voice coil ventilation opening during high excursion, fast transients, this 10" driver with no cone treatment or coating has a great tone for bass and midbass compared to other 10" and 12" paper and carbon fiber drivers. It is not even necessary to compare this driver to anything to realize that it sounds very good.

It has medium efficiency and I have tried it as a woofer, with a lowpass 12db/oct @ 125 Hz filter.

What strikes me interesting is that it has no "dual" personality that plagues coated/treated cone drivers. The tone it produces is solid, coherent and monumental with no lurking of other subtones that suggest any smearing of the fundamental driver's tone. Nothing creeps out from the main tone.

I think using this driver as the bottom range or midbass range with a top of 150Hz with shallow crossover slopes will be quite rewarding, in a sealed box.

Herman
01-30-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
be
Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts 86
Joined on 02-12-2007

Post #: 30
Post ID: 17764
Reply to: 17207
HiVi D10G
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Herman.

Did you hear the Scanspeak woofers like the 8565 or 8555 as a comparison? If you have, what do you think?

Rgds.
Erik
01-30-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 144
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 31
Post ID: 17767
Reply to: 17764
Scanspeak
fiogf49gjkf0d
 be wrote:
Hi Herman.

Did you hear the Scanspeak woofers like the 8565 or 8555 as a comparison? If you have, what do you think?

Rgds.
Erik


I did not hear those woofers.
03-12-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
haralanov


Bulgaria
Posts 130
Joined on 05-20-2008

Post #: 32
Post ID: 19091
Reply to: 2528
Imaginary drivers
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
I met once the filed-coil version of KL-L405. The electromagnetic version was very poor sounding

There is no such model in existence.



"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." -A.E.
03-12-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 33
Post ID: 19092
Reply to: 19091
Not necessarily.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I had two friends in NY City with Klangfilm Bionor who drove them with Lamm ML2.0. One of them had 405 footers and another had fool filed-coil version. I did not look into details and if I remember correctly the driver were in fabric cocoon but I do not think that they had a reason to light to me.  I am very certain that it was what I was told as they have absolutely no need to mispresent what it was. The guy with perm magnet Bionor move to Utah now and the guy with filed-coil version of Bionor moved to Seattle. I am sure that they still have their speakers, I did not listen them in their new homes.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-12-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 34
Post ID: 19093
Reply to: 19092
Cinema/PA type drivers
fiogf49gjkf0d
Not to dismiss the matter of the (non) existence of the FC L405, since I have not seen one, and I do not know (or care) about this...

Regarding the "applications" for the cinema/PA-type drivers, broadly speaking, these drivers were/are "purpose built" to play (loudly) to crowds.  Period.  IMO, it might take some "adapting" to make some of them "work" in a demanding home system, if they would ever "work" there at all.  Not that this will stop, or even slow down, the "Klangfilm Crowd", who seem to have their own, mostly-fraternal agenda.  Turning this last statement around, the typical Klangfilm Fraternity installation might not be the best way to listen "seriously" to "Serious Music", and it takes some expereince, I think, even to "elvaluate" the drivers themselves under such circumstances.

Perhaps part of the "fun" of some of these drivers is that they are "hard to find", and more fun might derive from relative sensitivity, if they can make a lot of sound from a low-powered amp.  In some cases the stock motors can be adapted for use with lighter cones; but no one should assume that this is all there is to it.  For demanding home use one always has to get the best and ameliorate the worst from any given driver, even when one starts with "the best" drivers (or "the best parts" from "the best drivers"). 

Any armchair "ranking" of [stock] drivers should include consideration of the original intended use along with any specific contemporary applications.  Many of the contemporary applications for older drivers that I've seen/heard on YouTube (and the like) strike me as being far from my personal interests.

My own limited experience with field coil drivers is that, other factors being equal, it is "easier" to tune FC drivers to a more "even" response.  And at some point, this might be worth a lot.  But taking this alone does not make "other considerations" go away.



Paul S
08-27-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 144
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 35
Post ID: 25061
Reply to: 2515
Compression tweeters
TAD TD-2002:
I have been evaluating these without horns. Essentially, listening to them without the horns, but also with original horns. No difference, as I will describe what I am hearing in both configurations (applies to their high frequency reproduction). The original horns are ok and they do not change the essence of the sound. So...
2002 is an interesting driver. Not good but interesting. If you have ever heard an arch welder, well, the 2002 has that high frequency noise superimposed on all the sounds above about 10Khz. This is a problem for me because listening to it over 10 minutes is a heck of a torture. It's a bit of a shame because otherwise this is a very capable driver with enough depth and sophistication to like it and not disgrace music. Let's say you want to use a compression tweeter over 3Khz. This one can do it and it has good texture and decent tone, not flat sounding at all. But the problem manifests itself constantly, no exception, for all sound information above 10khz. It is this high frequency "glossy cloud"  of noise. The solution that is very effective is a low pass 6db/oct filter around 10 to 15khz. Your personal preference. Only then, the 2002 provides good simple sound, if you don't want to listen to an arch welder. Those TAD guys -- they had an agenda. Were they deaf? Not completely but partially because without a low pass filter to tame the high frequency mess, this driver is unusable. With the filter it sound fine indeed.
Page 2 of 2 (35 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Barn Conversion - James' Project..  The vintage vs. contemporary compression driver....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     28  264185  02-04-2007
  »  New  Bye-Bye, Fane..  The new Studio 8M users....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     107  749672  03-08-2007
  »  New  A right midbass solution for Altec 515G...  Its even possible to make my midbass......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     21  133429  05-06-2007
  »  New  Jessie Dazzle Project..  Will this better to be auditable?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     172  1144004  08-03-2007
  »  New  The 60-inch LF driver...  And here is a good tube for a powerful SET :-)...  Audio Discussions  Forum     1  37554  03-17-2008
  »  New  Help to identify the LF driver...  Shell I install some kind of finding award? I might…...  Audio Discussions  Forum     2  19440  09-06-2008
  »  New  The sound compromises of high efficiency direct radiato..  Well yes, but ......  Audio Discussions  Forum     8  49830  01-05-2009
  »  New  Constructing LF modules to the limits..  The little glory of my small woofers....  Audio Discussions  Forum     54  335768  04-28-2009
  »  New  How to select mid/upper bass horn drivers...  How to select mid/upper bass horn drivers....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  18412  08-25-2009
  »  New  Discussions and experience with specific drivers..  Discussions and experience with specific drivers...  Audio Discussions  Forum     0  184  08-24-2018
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