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07-08-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
muddasir
Posts 3
Joined on 07-08-2010

Post #: 1
Post ID: 13950
Reply to: 13950
Does tube preamplifier VTL would add tube sound to system
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi there every one.

A brief about system. Marantz transport---Acustic Arts DAC II-----Krell HRC preamp-----Krell FPB 600 class A amp---B&W 802.
Previously i  had a pair of carry 805 SET amps which drived Klipsch KLF 30 any how i was getting a good bargain for B&W 802 so i traded off with the 805 SET and KLF-30. Now some how i feel that i am missing the musici involvement which i used to have with the previous setup. the B&W are more like accurate but sterile life less and uninvolving, any way i love my Krell PB-600 which is remarkabke in bass section.

Being an E.E my perception is that that tube sounds the way they do due to the its baising and output characteristics, so its basically emphasising or diminishing particular harmonics that make up the orignal waveform.The SET tube amp is doing it at the top of the ladder, what if we introduce a tube DAC or a tube preamplifier like VTL 7.5 then the wave form at line level would have same sort of harmonic coloration BUT AT LINE LEVEL. IF we now feed this sifnal to a class A SS can we get tube like sound. My eyes are ar the moment on a used VTL 7.5.
07-08-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,069
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 2
Post ID: 13951
Reply to: 13950
Where to Begin?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Muddasir, welcome to Good Sound Club, where, if you get what you want, it will be because you've figured it out for yourself. Since you have popped up here asking for feedback/advice, I'll open by saying it's hard to tell from your post if you've read much of what has already been posted on this fairly extensive site. I'm guessing, not; or perhaps you have misread. Normally, I would ask for specific sound traits and qualities that you have, like, want, ect., and some specific ideas of what you do not like about your present system, in order to develop a strategy. Funny, but in this case your listing of the brands that comprise your system and those you hope will help you out actually offers some valuable insight into the way you are presently approaching hi-fi, and it sounds like searching for "knowledgable" opinions and consensus building forms the base of your present sense of "direction" in hi-fi. Good luck with this approach!

Not to be presumptuous or rude, but the way you have framed your "tubes vs. SS remarks" suggests that you've not been at this seriously for long. There are MANY posts on this site dealing with generic topological considerations. Basically (very basically...), you are right about the operating points, etc., and being an EE might actually give you a leg up once you get a clearer sense of what you want in terms of music and musical sound, along with the problems that inhere in ANY off-the-shelf "solution".

This next is tough to say, and perhaps I exceed myself here: Bluntly put, there are many roads to Rome, but I would not want to start with your speakers and amps. I rarely say something like this, because it it usually not worth saying, but you have one hell of a task ahead of you to milk good music out of that combo, if that is your aim. But surely, you can hear this for yourself?

I have no comment on which brand of pre-amp you might buy at this point, but I will boldly opine to close that yours presently strikes me as a case where you are aiming at "hi-fi" but you would actually get a lot more musical self-discovery from mid-fi, at least for a while.

Best regards,
Paul S
07-09-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
muddasir
Posts 3
Joined on 07-08-2010

Post #: 3
Post ID: 13957
Reply to: 13951
Tube pre-amp with ss amp for tube sound
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks paul for well thought reply. Two things need clarifiication, i am not new to the subject and am a constant and avid reader.Secondly my preference for music is hobby for electronics and pleasure of listening through application of mind and knowledge  on the subject. However going through several pages on the forum i still feel a lot is to learned yet.
Getiing to the point the first preference is ease of listening, i calculate it by time through which listening fatigue is developed or i get bored to listening.The carry 805 SET and horn klipsch was very pleasureable but except or vocals there was always something i felt which was missing,the accuracy of mid bass and the awe inspiring LF. I made A/B comarison with cary and krell FPB -600. the cary was a clear winner in smoothness and mid but it misssed serveral overtones in lower mid range,krell always had been a safe bet so i decided to keep krell and trade cary for B&W 802 speaker upgrade.Frankly i didnot test the used 802 with krell before purchasing and after several months of listening i am pretty sure that this combination cannot be honey to my ears. it lacks involvement with music.
SO i read somewhere on the net if we have to mix ss and tube the combination should be tube pre----ss amp and NOT ss pre ------tube amp.The obvious thought that came to my mind was the the warmath of even order harmonics could be generated at line level and then amplified , though the ss amp would still generate even order harmonics but still we can get close to tube sound with an accurate ss amp like krell.
My reference for VTL 7.5 was due to the reason that a used is being offered to me at the moment.
regards
07-09-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
KLegind
Posts 32
Joined on 04-03-2008

Post #: 4
Post ID: 13959
Reply to: 13957
Tubes are from Venus, SS is from Uranus
fiogf49gjkf0d
 muddasir wrote:
Thanks paul for well thought reply. Two things need clarifiication, i am not new to the subject and am a constant and avid reader.Secondly my preference for music is hobby for electronics and pleasure of listening through application of mind and knowledge  on the subject. However going through several pages on the forum i still feel a lot is to learned yet.
Getiing to the point the first preference is ease of listening, i calculate it by time through which listening fatigue is developed or i get bored to listening.The carry 805 SET and horn klipsch was very pleasureable but except or vocals there was always something i felt which was missing,the accuracy of mid bass and the awe inspiring LF. I made A/B comarison with cary and krell FPB -600. the cary was a clear winner in smoothness and mid but it misssed serveral overtones in lower mid range,krell always had been a safe bet so i decided to keep krell and trade cary for B&W 802 speaker upgrade.Frankly i didnot test the used 802 with krell before purchasing and after several months of listening i am pretty sure that this combination cannot be honey to my ears. it lacks involvement with music.
SO i read somewhere on the net if we have to mix ss and tube the combination should be tube pre----ss amp and NOT ss pre ------tube amp.The obvious thought that came to my mind was the the warmath of even order harmonics could be generated at line level and then amplified , though the ss amp would still generate even order harmonics but still we can get close to tube sound with an accurate ss amp like krell.
My reference for VTL 7.5 was due to the reason that a used is being offered to me at the moment.
regards


Listen Muddasir, its obvious that you have recognized some strengths and flaws in your playback system, and you are able to describe them after a fashion. I like that. You know what your Krell does well and what your Cary did well - why not capitalize on this realization? Try bi-amping a speaker using a line level crossover. There is no guarantee that it can save your B&W speakers (probably not) but try with a different speaker, even a cheap one. If the Krell and the tube amp can communicate together (big "if"), then you will notice within a few bars of the first track, that the sound has gained a certain amount of calm, solidity and dynamics. Taking the bass load off the back of a single ended tube amp will let it play within its "quality range". Within this range it will operate at a much more interesting level.

Reg. tube pre and SS power: I think the idea has more intellectual appeal than real audio worthyness. You take any preamp tube harmonic artifact and overlay it with solid state artifact. Will it be good sounding? I don't think so, but maybe I never heard such a combination well implemented. SS pre and tube power on the other hand can sound OK.  
The question is: Can 2. order harmonic distortion plus negative feedback time domain distortion result in anything but crap?  

Sincerely
Kris
07-09-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,069
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 5
Post ID: 13962
Reply to: 13957
The Values Pyramid
fiogf49gjkf0d
"SO i read somewhere on the net if we have to mix ss and tube the combination should be tube pre----ss amp and NOT ss pre ------tube amp."

Please don't take offense, but this is why I say what I say. No matter how smart you are or how long you've been at it, this is beginner-speak.

"...my preference for music is hobby for electronics and pleasure of listening through application of mind and knowledge  on the subject."

Muddasir, if this is the case, then you can't lose, since there will always be components to mix 'n match and try your mind against.

Setting aside all musical considerations, you cannot buy any one or two components that will make perfect sound from the rest of your gear. Get yourself an old pair of Harbeth Monitor 40s (NOT the new ones) and a sufficiently-powerful, non-dramatic SS amp (Electrocompaniet?), integrated is fine, and non-dramatic sources/components, and try not to change anything for at least 2 years. Basically, try to get the drama out of the system, itself.

Best regards,
Paul S

07-09-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
scooter
Posts 161
Joined on 07-17-2008

Post #: 6
Post ID: 13963
Reply to: 13957
Thoughts for your consideration
fiogf49gjkf0d
 muddasir wrote:
My reference for VTL 7.5 was due to the reason that a used is being offered to me at the moment.
regards


Muddasir,

I can't think of a worse reason to purchase anything.  The best thing you can do is stop spending money on gear and really get a grasp on what you are aiming for. 

As Paul noted, invest some serious time scouring this site (it will take you several months). Don't search for advice, recommendations or product reviews, but learn how people think strategically about where they are, where they want to arrive and how/why they propose to get there.  I am sure you can find other sites (not in audio) that will help your strategic approach to the problem.

Wishing you all the best,

S
07-10-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
muddasir
Posts 3
Joined on 07-08-2010

Post #: 7
Post ID: 13965
Reply to: 13963
Tube pre-amp for ss power amp
fiogf49gjkf0d
I agree i have been making mistakes even costly ones. I had taken the biamping route with cary and krell on B&W , and that was the purpose of getting both the amps, to get the best out of both ,,,,,,it turned out mixing oil and water,,,,,the most obvious and serious problems were, slew rate difference/time delay in both amps, gain and phase differences not to mention the absence of even and odd harmonic components of main frequency driven by each LF and HF drivers in HF and LF respectively.

I think its a dilema for pursuit of happiness it is there but u crave more ....never really satisfied. I am not sure if could call my self audiophile but i wonder what the real pleasure/objective of an audiophile is , collection of exotic devices, aura of listening, drama of accomplishing something and just pretend to be wanting more. ANY WAY that was sunjective. In one sentence if i could describe what i want out of my system, pleasing very pleasing life like /live vocals , absence of listening fatigue .Thats why i brought up the subject ,,,,, ithought that the pre-amp was the weakest link .
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