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06-10-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Arno P
Posts 18
Joined on 06-10-2011
Post #: 1
Post ID: 16433
Reply to: 16433
3.5m Tractrix Horn Project (AKA RAINDOG)
fiogf49gjkf0d
Sorry for the dutch language but I posted my project and pics there....I think the photo's will tell the story...hope you'll like it

http://www.htforum.nl/yabbse/index.php?topic=112675.0

Regards,

Arno
06-10-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,161
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 2
Post ID: 16434
Reply to: 16433
Not my cap of tea.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Arno, I am sorry but I am not quite following what you would like to hear from me.  I am sure you are involved in a fascinating project and I truly wish you to have fun to render it. Unfortunately I do not like the speaker idea you are trying to build and therefore I do not share you practical enthusiasm.  I do not want to discourage you but unfortunately the result you will get out of this horn is very predictable.  BTW, where do you see Tractrix profile in there I have no idea, not that it needed to be seen in this horn….

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-10-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Arno P
Posts 18
Joined on 06-10-2011
Post #: 3
Post ID: 16436
Reply to: 16434
Feedback
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Arno, I am sorry but I am not quite following what you would like to hear from me.  I am sure you are involved in a fascinating project and I truly wish you to have fun to render it. Unfortunately I do not like the speaker idea you are trying to build and therefore I do not share you practical enthusiasm.  I do not want to discourage you but unfortunately the result you will get out of this horn is very predictable.  BTW, where do you see Tractrix profile in there I have no idea, not that it needed to be seen in this horn….

Well, I thought it would be nice to follow a project like this by other DIY builders, that's it.I am curious what you might not like about the speaker idea or design and indeed I hope it is predictable....since the calculations (AJHORN software) are done and resulted in such a tractrix profile.Looking forward to the actual listening and measurements for comparison and the challenge to balance the mid/highs to the horn-lows.
If such DIY projects are not intended to be on the forum please let me know and I will gladly remove or adapt the topic to fit in the forum style/rules.
Regards,
Arno
06-11-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,161
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 4
Post ID: 16438
Reply to: 16436
Why don’t you build a car with triangles tires?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Arno, I have plenty at my site that describes in great detains why and what I do not like in idea of single driver with back-loaded horn.  Build it and hear what you will be getting. The software you are irrelevant.  There are no intended or not intended things that might be posted here. If you find it interesting then post your thoughts about that thin-wall clay vase sound that you will be getting as result. You are asking about my opinion and I share it with you. I am sorry that it is not what you would like to hear.

THe Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-11-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Arno P
Posts 18
Joined on 06-10-2011
Post #: 5
Post ID: 16439
Reply to: 16438
Cats and (Rain)Dogs
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Arno, I have plenty at my site that describes in great detains why and what I do not like in idea of single driver with back-loaded horn.  Build it and hear what you will be getting. The software you are irrelevant.  There are no intended or not intended things that might be posted here. If you find it interesting then post your thoughts about that thin-wall clay vase sound that you will be getting as result. You are asking about my opinion and I share it with you. I am sorry that it is not what you would like to hear.

THe Cat


Apparently I do have a lot of reading to do at this great site and what "I would like to hear" is always sincere opinions, facts and experiences...and that's what you do. The thrill is continuous learning and the joy of getting there....even if it is the hard way of making mistakes.
Already wondering what a thin-wall clay vase might sound like ;-)

Arno
06-11-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 260
Joined on 08-03-2004
Post #: 6
Post ID: 16444
Reply to: 16439
Back Loaded tall horn
fiogf49gjkf0d
If you are going to do something like this then it would make sense to have it firing backwards & make use of the corner of the room in the way Carfrae did some 15 years ago.



That said, I don't think I'd be tempted to make a back loaded horn to begin with.
06-11-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010
Post #: 7
Post ID: 16445
Reply to: 16444
Beautiful Horn
fiogf49gjkf0d
I just love the way this Carfrae looks!

I have been tempted to make something similar, but turn it into a front loaded horn (of course),  say turn the driver around and add a back chamber on the back of it.  Make a nice volume tuning device.  And then maybe turn the whole horn around so it faces the front, take the triangle thing off and leave it sort of looking down,  that will give the bass wave some time to mature....

Just one "bend" but it is 180 degrees...  

The way the compression chamber works with the exit on one side should also add distortion. I such a desgin the driver should be looking upwards,  to avoid this,  but that brings even more problems IME.

Would be nice to work it out from say 200- 150 hz down to 50 or 40 hz,  maybe even 30 hz.  the original specs said 20 hz,  but that was using the wall reflection.
06-11-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,161
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 8
Post ID: 16446
Reply to: 16444
Sex with anorexic woman?
fiogf49gjkf0d

 guy sergeant wrote:
I don't think I'd be tempted to make a back loaded horn to begin with.

Yep, it is what it is. The back-loaded horns might have as convoluted back path as Scriabin music is but the sad truth about them is that all back-loaded horns sound absolutely identical. Some people put the quality of construction as the keystone of the design. Some people put a lot of faith into some kind of exotic drivers made from skin of adolescent Dolphins soaked in urine of Buddhist monk pregnant with second child. Some people use computer modeling and time analyses. Some use laser to read horn vibration. Ironically no matter what they do the result is always the same and the speaker sound like back loaded horn. I guess a person in his evolution of loudspeaker topology has to do over it…

Some people mistakably think that horn is some kind of Philosophic Stone that can create new elements from other elements. Yes, the Philosophic Stone does exist it called nuclear division and it can create from dreck but a horn is not a nuclear division. If it were then we would attach horn to violins and have contrabasses or attach horn to flutes and to have bassoons. We do not do it for some reason, not we have needs for it. We do want to have string or wind sound in different octave and we use different initials and different playing techniques to benefit own respectful sonic region.

Arno, do not consider mine or anybody else disbelieve in back-loaded idea as an obstruction in your project.  The back-loader horns are very popular and many people use them. You need to hear once a single bar from a properly implemented, time-aligned multi-channel installation and it will be end of your subscription of back-loading dipole radiation with a single driver. The back-loaded single driver sounds like a puff of Marlboro Lite. If you’re accustom to smoke full Cohibas then the that Marlboro Lite will not be comfortable even for your lips…

Rgs, Romy the Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-12-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Arno P
Posts 18
Joined on 06-10-2011
Post #: 9
Post ID: 16449
Reply to: 16446
Love this
fiogf49gjkf0d
A lot of confirmations that I really should be building this... ;-)

It might be a long way, but that's also how I did the full range ESL's...and it's worth it.
In a lot of cases it's like experiencing whisky the first time....with the bad stuff and just smashing it in....one would never drink it again and the advice to others would be not to have it. Taking time and the right stuff.....it's a joy forever...(Or a matter of taste after all separating the whisky lovers from the haters)
And again, it's the long way of learning and gaining experience first handed which is the pleasure...(at least for me it is)

Today, I connected the sides....WHAT a brute force it is to get it together....something different than the paper model I made ;-)
06-12-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,161
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 10
Post ID: 16450
Reply to: 16449
Single-driver fantasies, in particularly back-loaded.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Arno, I am glad that you take my comment with right attitude; this is indication that you are not dead, despite the fact that you are building a back-loaded horn.  I do not think that you find a lot of useful horns information for yourself at this site.  As you have figured out I religiously despise the single-driver loudspeakers and thee is very little useful data about single-driver topology at my site. Not that I believe that it might be any USEFUL information about single-driver fantasies, in particularly back-loaded.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-13-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Arno P
Posts 18
Joined on 06-10-2011
Post #: 11
Post ID: 16453
Reply to: 16450
Same page here
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Arno, I am glad that you take my comment with right attitude; this is indication that you are not dead, despite the fact that you are building a back-loaded horn.  I do not think that you find a lot of useful horns information for yourself at this site.  As you have figured out I religiously despise the single-driver loudspeakers and thee is very little useful data about single-driver topology at my site. Not that I believe that it might be any USEFUL information about single-driver fantasies, in particularly back-loaded.


The same path was there for designing the ESL's but the building was very difficult but easier than this horn. For the ESL the know-how is lacking even more even though there are about 3 "holy"/books with information I could use (multiple contradictions in the info that needed to be sorted out). In the end I do think I understand and major ESL's now...and THAT is the rewarding bit I am going for (and of course the over excellent sound reproduction in my system)
For building a horn, I think the knowlegde part can be found in calculations and above all the experience as mentioned in the Dinsdale papers. Secondly most people should be scared of building a non-constant width folden back loaden horn.....it's hell on earth calculating and especially building it (trust me ;-) ). Maybe that is the reason not a lot of people favor such a horn and secondly a lot of people heard similarly looking horns that were not designed or constructed correctly. On the other side...there are several horns that are succesful...and THAT keeps me ticking..

Next step today: make some more wood bends ;-)
06-23-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Arno P
Posts 18
Joined on 06-10-2011
Post #: 12
Post ID: 16526
Reply to: 16453
Good Old 9710M
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, while waiting for the DX4 units I guessed I gave it a try with the old philips 9710M units. Not ideal, far from it...but the horn potential and sound is mind blowing!!!! Just great....
Could have a slight correction on the high-bump in the curve but been playing CD after CD now...power, dynamics and detail...
Next step DX4's and balancing the system....after that build a second one and start finishing them
07-12-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Arno P
Posts 18
Joined on 06-10-2011
Post #: 13
Post ID: 16667
Reply to: 16526
Raindogs are barking
fiogf49gjkf0d
I finished the second prototype and finally can listen in stereo...and start the fine-tuning...only problem now is to reduce the input sensitivity of the temporary tube amp so that I don't get blown away at the first notch of the volume control ;-) (Photo is deformed bij the camera lens trying to squeeze everything into 1 image)
ArnoHorns.jpg
07-12-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,161
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 14
Post ID: 16671
Reply to: 16667
Cultivating Audio.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, Arno, thanks for update. In the projects like this I try to differentiate two things: efforts spend and result in terms of Sound. For sure your efforts you depicted at your site are commendable and you shall have credit for it. However, in team of sound – kill me but I do not like this type of topology and I do not find the sound this topology produced stimulating. This supposes to be completely irrelevant to you but since you keep solicit opinions then I guess I might share my.

It is not that this type of speaker will not play. Of because it will to a degree it will show an impressive play. The problem is that in audio whenever we do will play. The questions are: how play, what play and what will you do while it plays, those question are much more complicated than cutting wood and use glue skillfully.  Audio to a degree is like gardening. No matter what you do the plants better or worth will grow up in spring. However to cultivate plants with specific predictable characteristics and with best possible outcome the topology of a given plant permits is a form of science and art. It is very much far from just tossing seed in ground…

In my estimation going for the topology you went is just to throwing seed to ground and forgetting about it until harvest comes…

Rgs, Romy the Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-13-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Arno P
Posts 18
Joined on 06-10-2011
Post #: 15
Post ID: 16672
Reply to: 16671
Audio Seeds
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Romy,
From the audio/diy-path where I come from....I eat the seeds instead of throwing them on the ground ;-)Up till now quite successful 
Nevertheless I do appreciate feedback and even more experience from others. Could you be more specific on what your ideas are?
Regards,
Arno 
09-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Arno P
Posts 18
Joined on 06-10-2011
Post #: 16
Post ID: 17048
Reply to: 16672
Done !
fiogf49gjkf0d
And very pleased with them ;-)
05-15-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Arno P
Posts 18
Joined on 06-10-2011
Post #: 17
Post ID: 18180
Reply to: 16433
Horns completed and stepping up to the next level
fiogf49gjkf0d
IMG_1135k.jpg
Listening to a lot of recordings, tweaking with/with out filtering and blending in the T900..Getting better and better (Camera lens is stretching the horn side ways bu the way)
05-15-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Arno P
Posts 18
Joined on 06-10-2011
Post #: 18
Post ID: 18181
Reply to: 18180
T900a
fiogf49gjkf0d
IMG_1650k.jpg
Subtle blending in the T900a with filtering like a pinch of salt in a nice dish
(Mechanics being temporarily of course ;-) )
And...you can also see the almost completed 300B SET with interstage drive
05-19-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Arno P
Posts 18
Joined on 06-10-2011
Post #: 19
Post ID: 18193
Reply to: 18181
T900A mounted and enjoying it ;-)
fiogf49gjkf0d
Very very nice top end now..IMG_1697k.jpg
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