GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site

05-16-2010

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manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #:	1
Post ID:	13527
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Munich High End 2010

Thanks for all the suggestions. As it happens, there were no exhibitors at the Flemings Hotel this year. But I did pop into the Stax stall before listening to anything else.

In general, I was pretty disappointed with what I heard. Most of the ‘conventional’ direct-radiating speaker systems just sounded ‘dead’, at best – what I call ‘cardboard’ sound. Many sounded positively objectionable – and I’m talking about well known high-end brands here.

I did have one interesting experience though. I was walking down a corridor and heard something coming from around the corner that I thought sounded really good. I walked speedily down the corridor and turned the corner to the sight of a live acoustic band playing snare drums, double bass and guitar!

I have to say that absolutely none of the systems I heard came even close to this live sound. Could it be argued that this had much to do with bad rooms? Maybe. But it’s interesting that a live band can still sound ‘right’ from down a corridor and around a corner.

I have absolutely no desire to write negatively about anything that I heard. So here are a few systems that I had a positive experience with.

1948 Western Electric Theatre speakers
Driven by Silbatone A-845 mono amplifiers and C-100 preamplifier. 2-way system crossed at 800Hz.
Nice ‘alive’ sound. No real top or bottom to talk about though. Not sure how long I could listen to these – they seemed to have a bit of an edge to them.
Western Electric 1948.jpg

Stax SRM-007tII/4070 electrostatic headphones
Really nice. Probably my favourite sound at the show.

MBL 101 X-treme
Very sweet top end – one of the best I’ve ever heard. However, things got progressively worse further down the spectrum. The mid-range seemed thin. There seemed to be a lack of upper bass. The lower bass, although substantial enough, was totally disjointed. But what a top-end!

In summary, although I didn’t hear anything at the show that approached what I consider the ‘real McCoy’, I’m still really glad I went. When I returned, I listened to some music on my speakers and realised that I’m not doing too badly after all. Yes, I have ‘cardboard’ sound too. But mine is in no way objectionable - just a bit ‘lifeless’... but listenable nevertheless.

Mani.

05-16-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	2
Post ID:	13528
Reply to:	13527

Those type of the speakers....

Thanks, Mani. My comment is about the 1948 Western Electric I generally do not like those types of the speakers. There is a community of people who use those open baffles, insisting that they are the only speakers that decay 6bB per octave under the bottom. The absolutely fanatical about their Western Electric or Klangfilms or whatever and they are absolutely blind to many fundamental problems of the topology. Unfortunately the fetish that they created in own heard pretty much disqualifies them from an ability to endure any cretinism or even questioning.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

05-17-2010

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KLegind
Posts 34
Joined on 04-03-2008

Post #:	4
Post ID:	13531
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Additional baffle/parasitic baffle

Markus wrote:
These speakers were not open baffle. I would agree with Mani's description of their sound, except for the 'edge' bit. That depended on where you were sitting/standing.

Then they would be baffle extenders which are not without problems. Perhaps a resonating panel can be used to tune the sound of the speaker, but in that case I would have used a set of large round-overs that would make the transition to 4pi space very gradual. Possibly integrating these into one large enclosure. Edge diffraction is not to be trifled with (in my experience).

kindly
Kris

05-17-2010

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el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #:	5
Post ID:	13532
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Hife Deluxe

manisandher wrote:
Thanks for all the suggestions. As it happens, there were no exhibitors at the Flemings Hotel this year. But I did pop into the Stax stall before listening to anything else.

The Hifi Deluxe was in the Le Meridien.

http://www.hifideluxe.de/

Would have been interesting what you think about the Duevel (and whether you like the MBL top end for being omnidirectional only).
Martion and Ecouton were around the corner as every year, the new Ecouton Transar seems to have a horn-loaded Mundorf AMT, would have been nice to hear it, the earlier Versions had ESS AMTs I think.
From what I have read in forums so far the only really interesting room for me would have been Audionec.

05-17-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	6
Post ID:	13533
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I think I need to have a dedicated anti-open baffle thread

Markus wrote:
These speakers were not open baffle.

Actually they are. They might not look like open baffle but they have all negative conceptual characteristics of the open baffle. I think to properly evaluate what those type of the speakers they need to be viewed like nothing else then the open baffles. It was very popular design in that time for film theaters; there were many manufacturers who do the same….

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

05-17-2010

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el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #:	7
Post ID:	13536
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What is an "open baffle"?

Weren't these speakers (at least in Germany) normally used built-in (infinite baffle situation)? And I don't like the word "open baffle" because it can mean anything. It reaches from quasi-IB like proposed by PHY-HP up to that more and more crazy constructions at diyaudio.com that need massive boosting over the largest part of the frequency range.

05-17-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	8
Post ID:	13537
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The "open baffle" means everything.

el`Ol wrote:
Weren't these speakers (at least in Germany) normally used built-in (infinite baffle situation)? And I don't like the word "open baffle" because it can mean anything. It reaches from quasi-IB like proposed by PHY-HP up to that more and more crazy constructions at diyaudio.com that need massive boosting over the largest part of the frequency range.

I disagree. The "open baffle" term means very specific and very definitive thing. It means that baffle is finite and it has a frequency where the dipole acoustic shortage kicks in. that is the whole point of baffle to be limited/finite in a contrary to infinite baffle where the back way never see front wave.

The infinite baffle and open baffle VERY different topologies conceptually. It is like US Space Shuttle vs. Russian Space Shuttle – both are very same aircrafts but they operate on very different fundamental principles. I do not know how these speakers were used in Germany. If they were built-in to the walls of the theaters then the large front baffle is necessary but I think that were used in stand-alone configuration (Klangfilm Eurodyn or Bionor) as they are used today by their admirers.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

05-17-2010

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Joe Roberts
Posts 48
Joined on 01-12-2009

Post #:	9
Post ID:	13538
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L-9=>Closed box

The Western Electric L-9 in Munich was/is an infinite baffle design. The 754B woofers are in a sealed enclosure with a front horn. There is no possibility of cancellation between front wave and back wave of speaker, so I wouldn't call it an "open baffle" in any way. Don't be fooled by the wings.

We were always clear to point out that this is a "second class" WE theater speaker. The Alnico components are quite good (although I am suspicious of the cast aluminum KS-12025 horn). The HF driver was the phenolic 713 good to 13k which sounds better (smoother) than the aluminum diaphragm version. The earlier field coil stuff is in another league entirely but this system is very interesting.

The goal was to provide something from a different age and mindset to listen to and also to destroy the mini-monitor market. The presentation is so far from magazine audiophile expectations and guidelines that this demo had tremendous shock value. If you survey show reports many called it the best sound there...and this coming from a 62 year old speaker.

A lot of people remarked in amazement on the thin original wire which looked like it came from an old doorbell system. Pretty funny since we had tens of meters of Audio Note Litz and Nordost silver around the room on the speakers we were not playing. This is not the thing that would jump out at me but obviously people are wire-mad these days.

I occasionally heard a slight edge to the sound depending on listener position, how loud it was turned up, and how many people were in the room to absorb reflections from the hard side walls and glass. On the whole, I would say it erred on the side of being overly soft and creamy rather than harsh. It was a success in musicality and impact rather than ultimate refinement and sophistication.

Most of all, the idea of bringing this old speaker was to get people thinking. It was a subversive plot.

05-17-2010

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el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #:	10
Post ID:	13539
Reply to:	13527

Quasi-infinity

In one point you win, obviously the speaker panels were not really infinite indeed.

http://www.thomas-schick.com/Siemens.htm

But when the frequency where the dipole acoustic short circuit "kicks in" is clearly below the Fs of the driver, everything "dipoly" that can happen are rear wall reflections with the wrong phase, and that danger is also reduced by huge baffles.

05-17-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	11
Post ID:	13540
Reply to:	13538

Oy, do not delude yourself.

Joe Roberts wrote:
The Western Electric L-9 in Munich was/is an infinite baffle design. The 754B woofers are in a sealed enclosure with a front horn. There is no possibility of cancellation between front wave and back wave of speaker, so I wouldn't call it an "open baffle" in any way. Don't be fooled by the wings.

If those speakers in Munich had woofers in sealed enclosures then they were the infinite baffle design. I might be “fooled” by the wings but if it was sealed enclosures then why the wings were there? Undoubtedly the wings have a huge negative effect the MF and HF so why the “stupid” WE engineers even did the wings? I do not know certainly how the Western Electric L-9 was made but I think it is not sealed enclosures. Some of the drivers of the period used the semi-transparent cloth enclosures that you, Joe, might recognized as sealed. In reality the cloth damp a bit HF but near transpired at the lower end and here is where the duty of the wings kick in – pure open baffle.

Joe Roberts wrote:
Most of all, the idea of bringing this old speaker was to get people thinking. It was a subversive plot.

It is not. I know very well the mind frame of the people who bringing the old speakers to the show and those who “admire” them. There is no thinking in any of them but only a desire to make splashy hype, nothing more. The individuals who what to get people thinking bring to the shows Proper Sound and very seldom or even come from the “old speakers”. It is a whole different subject however…

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

05-17-2010

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el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #:	12
Post ID:	13541
Reply to:	13527

Appendix

el`Ol wrote:
In one point you win, obviously the speaker panels were not really infinite indeed.

http://www.thomas-schick.com/Siemens.htm
But when the frequency where the dipole acoustic short circuit "kicks in" is clearly below the Fs of the driver, everything "dipoly" that can happen are rear wall reflections with the wrong phase, and that danger is also reduced by huge baffles.

With larger baffle compared to the wavelength the figure eight becomes fatter and most of the room is pressurized again, just one half in the wrong phase.

05-17-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	13
Post ID:	13542
Reply to:	13539

Well, you need to read a whole book.

el`Ol wrote:
But when the frequency where the dipole acoustic short circuit "kicks in" is clearly below the Fs of the driver, everything "dipoly" that can happen are rear wall reflections with the wrong phase, and that danger is also reduced by huge baffles.

Your logic is correct but you refuse to see the whole picture - this is the biggest mistake the admirers of the open baffles do. Let trace the entire process. You grow the size of the baffle in order to keep the speakers to enter the “dipole mode” at the level where acoustic pressure under Fs is dropped. If you are at 1000Hz or 500Hz or even 200Hz then it is doable and it work very nice. However, if you are at 50 Hz or at 30Hz then the size of the wake grows significantly faster and ne you need truly huge baffle. Let forget the LF acoustic shortage due to the reflection while the huge baffle are being used. The very large baffles would require very large rooms, this is understandable. The very large rooms would require more and more acoustic pressure injected into the room in order to reproduce the relatively low frequency. Pressure might be built up only by surface and exertion. The driver’s surface is fixed, so to get more pressure at LF in the very large room we need to exert the drivers further. Unfortunately the drivers in the past were not made to work in heavy exertion mode. The best older woofers are hard-suspended drivers and they did VERY good tonally in limited dymick ranges. Drive then a bit harder and this coils will run out of their very short saturated magnetic gap and their wonderful tone get converted into very severs distortion. Take for instance the best Klangfilm woofers and play them louder then mezzo forte – they dive into very sever distortions. It is not to mention that ALL open baffle driver at the bottom sound absolutely the same…

So, it shall not be said that I am against the open baffle for bass. The lower octave un audio might be reproduced by only infinite baffle and sealed enclosures are the subordinates of the infinite baffle, the subordinates that in my view have even some advantages over the infinite baffle.

Rgs, The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

05-17-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	15
Post ID:	13544
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Any noise from the Manger Orchestra?

Mani, BTW, if Silbatone-pimping Joe Roberts showed up in here then it had to be the Aporia speakers with the back-loaded single Manger were presented in the show. Why would Silbatone otherwise to drag to the show that big and expensive mastodon from 1948?

http://www.romythecat.com/LatestPosts.aspx?ThreadID=9376

So, how the single-driver Aporia sounded back there? I am sure that Mr. Roberts would feel that Aporia was wonderful and will tell a story that after listing of them the entire contingent of Munich Philharmonic requested to rename their band to Sound Practicing Orchestra. Still, how Aporia Sound? Anything remotely positive?

The Cat

PS: I have isolated the Munich Show subject in own separate thread.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

05-17-2010

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manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #:	16
Post ID:	13545
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Not even a whisper from Mangers

I visited the room on six different occasions throughout Saturday and never once heard the Aporias playing. The reason that was being cited was that people wanted to listen to the WEs. Strange then that the Aporias should be there at all.

FWIW, I sat/stood in a different location on each occasion - the WEs definitely had an edge as far as I'm concerned...

Mani.

05-17-2010

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manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #:	17
Post ID:	13546
Reply to:	13532

Shame about the Hifi Deluxe

el`Ol wrote:
The Hifi Deluxe was in the Le Meridien... Would have been interesting what you think about the Duevel (and whether you like the MBL top end for being omnidirectional only).

I didn't know this, which is a shame as I definitely would have popped in.

Maybe an omnidirectional top end works well. If the hyper-expensive MBLs are anything to go by, omnidirectional mids and upper-basses definitely don't. But I would have liked to have heard the Duevel to find out.

Mani.

05-17-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	18
Post ID:	13547
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Very strange, indeed.

manisandher wrote:
I visited the room on six different occasions throughout Saturday and never once heard the Aporias playing. The reason that was being cited was that people wanted to listen to the WEs. Strange then that the Aporias should be there at all.

Hm, the Silbatone did not even make an attempt to demo Aporias? This is very odd. I might understand the desire of the people to hear WE but Silbatone in a business of selling amp, speakers and the rest and the entire objective of the Silbatone’s trip to Germany was to expose their products to public. I guess if the Aporia was there but was no demonstrated then it was ether broken or performed so bad that Silbatone folks desired do not jeopardize the bad rep for a new model. This in fact characterize Silbatone folks quite positive in my view.

Rgs, The caT

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

05-17-2010

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Joe Roberts
Posts 48
Joined on 01-12-2009

Post #:	19
Post ID:	13555
Reply to:	13547

L-9 is not a mystery

I do not know certainly how the Western Electric L-9 was made but I think it is not sealed enclosures. Some of the drivers of the period used the semi-transparent cloth enclosures that you, Joe, might recognized as sealed.

The L-9 enclosures were wood on all sides. Sealed box. No ambiguity here.

Wings were common on theater speakers for mid-bass reinforcement. Plainly audible improvement on these and, for example, A-7/A-5 VOTs. It is equivalent to in-wall mounting down to a freq determined by the width of the extensions.

There is no interference with MF and HF from the side baffles because those frequencies come out of the 60 degree horn on top of the cab, obviously.

There is nothing mysterious or technically-special about the L-9, it is just a competent Alnico WE system. Typical late 1940s pro sound engineering.

----------------------

We had the Aporias set up but we only played them at the end of the day on appointment because the WE was a very popular exhibition. We usually had 25-50 people in the room and they were digging the show so we went with it.

Also the room was huge (15x15m) which is too big for most speakers, Aporias included. How many speakers can impress in a 50 ft. square room with 50 people in it? The sweet spot can only fit three or four listeners and the other 47 would be screwed, even if it would play loud enough to overcome conditions, which it didn't. The size of the room is why we brought the WE horn.

For those really interested in Aporia, we gave them semi-private demos where the speaker had a chance to perform.

The Aporia is very limited production and we are not worried about sales, so 99% of the time we went with the antique demo that seemed to be catching peoples attention and interest.

We successfully demonstrated the Aporias at three shows already, so it was fun to switch to something offbeat. We had a great time and so did many of our visitors.

Yeah man, pimpin' is hard work...you got to be ready to adapt, improvise and, overcome! Plus you have to have the right hat.

05-18-2010

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moreart
germany Hamburg
Posts 30
Joined on 05-13-2009

Post #:	20
Post ID:	13561
Reply to:	13555

Mangerhorn

Hello,
i constructed a Mangerhorn 1984,
manger bought the lizence 1994

what i don´t understand by silbatone Manger horn
NO measurement, No IMP

Data:• 8 ohm, 93 dB/1W, Max. SPL - 120db

i never get more than 95 dB max.
and 1W1m 90 dB

and the lense IMHO can´t make no colourations

my Horn called BASSTUBA
measurements, plan, feedback and i am only DIY
http://www.hm-moreart.de/18.htm

DIY Horns
http://www.hm-moreart.de/1.htm
less is more

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»	New	Western Electric reproduces 0Hz + some literature…..	Re-set...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	2	59475	07-24-2006
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»	New	Klangfilm: actual knowledge is better then fetish imagi..	Klangfilm Kl51...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	18	223241	03-15-2007

	Target	Threads for related reading	Most recent post in related threads	Forum	Replies	Views	Started
»	New	Western Electric reproduces 0Hz + some literature…..	Re-set...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	2	59475	07-24-2006
»	New	Aporia - Silbatone Acoustics speaker..	Wow lol...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	108	951420	01-10-2009
»	New	Klangfilm: actual knowledge is better then fetish imagi..	Klangfilm Kl51...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	18	223241	03-15-2007