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12-05-2023

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,182
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	1
Post ID:	27309
Reply to:	27309

... and some Bruckner buzz

A friend sent me a link to an interesting video about Bruckner on analog. I do not know who the guy is; he is a Bruckner devotee, which is good. I'm afraid I must disagree with his choices, although I certainly enthusiastically support his appreciation of Carl Schuricht.

A few things, in my view there are no good-sounding Bruckner LPs, period. I feel his views about good sonics of many Bruckner LPs from 50 and 60 I do not share. Another thing that bothers me about this presentation. Please stop that nonsense about Bruckner and Mahler as some kind of German pseudo-intellectual package. That is rubbish. Their whole marriage started in the late 30s. I believe it was Bruno Walter who published an article about this position. I think at that time, it was fine as Bruno Walter had done a great job of promoting Bruckner and Mahler's music. But it, again, in my view, has nothing to do with reality, and to me, one of the most incredible things about Bruckner is that his musk is not Mahler's music. I am not a Mahler hater; I like Mahler, but to put Mahler in the same bracket with Bruckner in any way or form is a monumental fallacy.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

12-09-2023

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,671
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	2
Post ID:	27310
Reply to:	27309

Reasons for Poor LPs?

Romy, thanks for another nudge toward Bruckner. I was not at all aware of Schuricht before your post, and I do like what I heard of his 8th and 9th via headphones, off the computer, although I realize this is a just thumbnail version. You have said several times that there is no good Bruckner from LPs, and I remember you complained a while back that your Jubilee cartridge was acting up, and I wondered if this made Bruckner harder for you to get from LPs. If you feel, as I do, that Sound is very important for Bruckner appreciation, then you also think "the best" recorded performances must be replicable. I have to pay close attention to set up to get the performance from my old London 7th LPs, using my old, refurbished MC 3000 II cartridge.

Best regards,
Paul S

02-02-2024

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,671
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	3
Post ID:	27326
Reply to:	27310

Bruckner 8 Performances, CDs

I think I have 3 versions of Bruckner 8, 2 performances on CD. 1 CD is Carl Schuricht/Stuttgart, 1954, and the other is Herbert von Karajan/Vienna, 1988. The Karajan CD sounds better through my system, and I also prefer it in terms of the performance, itself, at this point. As someone who has wanted to really hear Bruckner for some time I am now awash in B's 8th Symphony. What a magnificent piece of Music! I sort of snuck up on this symphony by listening to a poor mono LP set I've had for a long time. When I finally heard the Karajan/VPO/'88 CD I was totally hypnotized! If this Adagio doesn't lift you, it may be you have no soul! I am amazed that Bruckner adds to his sonorities here in a new way, building on orchestral "chords" by introducing lower frequencies and then bringing in higher pitched sections playing the harmonics of the LF, and then riffing on the resultant chromatics. And the progressions are marvelous! It basically puts the thinking part of my brain out of commission and puts me into a sort of State of Transfixion. It might take a while before I can start piecing this symphony together. I remember in early listening that I could not "get" the fourth movement. Now I get "closure" from the 4th movement, such as it is, since it leaves me floating amongst The Heavenly Host. Lubeck is on the way!

Paul S

02-04-2024

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steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #:	4
Post ID:	27327
Reply to:	27309

Definitions

Romy,
When you say no good sounding Bruckner LPs do you mean no "great" sounding, or that all Bruckner LPs sonics are average or worse? It would help if you gave an example of late 19th C Romantic music on LP that you did consider good or better. Also do you think there any good sounding Bruckner CDs?
For myself, if I'm using "good" as above average but not a demonstration recording, I would say the Mehta Symphony 9, the Karajan Symphony 4 on the EMI german gold postage stamp label and the Bohm Symphony 3 are good recordings. I am only talking about the recording not the performance.
I think it is very difficult to make a demonstration recording of any large orchestra playing late Romantic works whether on LP or CD.
I do strongly agree with you that the pairing of Bruckner and Mahler is quite lazy. I think Mahler took one class from Bruckner. He never did much for him as conductor and his music has little relationship to Bruckner's except for some Schubertian tendencies in the interior movements. But music criticism (as opposed to scholarship) is almost always extremely lazy in everything.

02-18-2024

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,671
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	5
Post ID:	27339
Reply to:	27326

Bruckner 8; Wand, NDR, Lubeck (1987)!

As for the Musical Part of this CD, it could hardly be more amazing. I understand that the performance was taped live by German Public TV, and this might well mean that there is a great DVD of this event. Harmonia Mundi was also involved, and I will try digging into this in the near future, to see if there are any leads to other good recordings of this performance. Here Wand commands a very large orchestra that is composed of crack musicians who are also athletes. They must have been exhausted after that performance, as Wand really drives them. Wand deftly tailors the sound and the Musical structure both to include the reverberation in the cathedral. He also uses the many sections of this orchestra to get special chromatics, texture, dynamics, consonance, harmony and dissonance. His timing is impeccable, very “organic”, and very much in sync with the space. Many music loving musicologists have raved at length about this performance, and I add my up-vote to theirs. I have said that this CD does not tax my system, but I should add that all components must be fully warmed up and at their best for me to get the best from this CD, because there is a lot of There there. Then the Music is huge, powerful, downright enveloping, and truly awe inspiring, with the touted “presence ambiance” from beginning to end, including the quietest to the loudest passages. This performance takes nearly 90 minutes, including the parts and the Whole of this great, mighty Symphony. This performance sets the bar pretty high for B8 aspirants.

Paul S

11-20-2024

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,671
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	6
Post ID:	27708
Reply to:	27339

Bruckner 9, Giulini/VPO 1988

I struggle to find words adequate to describe Bruckner 9 performed by the VPO, guided by Carlo Maria Giulini in 1988. I think I have to use the term “Celestial” to conjure the sheer scale and the magnificence of this symphony. Giulini has a good idea of how he wants the symphony to sound, and the VPO delivers for him, Big Time. It is very much a matter of power and scale here, but it also involves the voicing of ever-shifting ensembles that continuously range up and down the frequency/sound spectrum, loud to soft and back with no hesitation, and I am sure it is a real exercise for the musicians. Something wonderful about the performance to me is that the musicians are so adept that they never sound strained or show-y, but the symphony just sort of appears continuously out of the sky (Celestial). People complain about DG sound, but the sound and atmosphere of the live performance are well captured here, and it does not diminish the important spiritual nature of this symphony. Run, don’t walk to get a copy of this.
Paul S

11-20-2024

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,182
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	7
Post ID:	27709
Reply to:	27708

It is what it is.

Yes, the Bruckner 9 by VPO and Giulini in 1988 is one of those few recordings why I do practice High-End audio. The opening of the 3rd movements is probably the best play I ever heard committed to recording media and one of the best compositions by mankind, in my view. The sound of DG of course is typically horrible, dry, grainy burned-out, the typical DG crap.

However, there is a trick. Milq/Macongo can rectify it. One of the reasons because I for years tuned my playback to play exactly this recording. However, my playback needs to have exceptionally good electricity day to play it. When it does happen a few times a year I always pull my Giulini B9 and I always play it and it sounds spectacular. I have seen some very strange effects with sound when I play this recording on a good electricity day. I remember it was good 15 years back and it was in the middle of a snow blizzard. The electricity was amazing and I pulled my Giulini’s B9 and it sounded beyond belief. On that night, adding +10-12DB to my ULF channel did not make any difference in the auditable result. Very interesting….

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

11-21-2024

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,671
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	8
Post ID:	27713
Reply to:	27709

System Requirements

Funny you should especially mention the opening of the 3rd (and final) movement (Adagio) as being demanding of your system. Bruckner uses a lot of high-pitched violin tremolo, huge banks of violins, often flanked by FFFF piccolos at the highest frequencies, and at the opening of the 3rd in B9 Guilini/VPO '88 this sound should be well sorted and "in space". Like you, I need everything in the system to be at its best in order to have space around those HF notes/chords. I cannot "get" this Music unless my gear has been played at least an hour ahead of it, and bad electricity sinks it. You mention you have kept this Music as a pole star over time. I recently changed S/PDIF IC hoping to better sort Bruckner HF. Too bad that examples of "well recorded" massed violin HF are thin on the ground.

Paul S

11-22-2024

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,182
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	9
Post ID:	27714
Reply to:	27713

It is not what I meant.

Paul S wrote:
Funny you should especially mention the opening of the 3rd (and final) movement (Adagio) as being demanding of your system. Bruckner uses a lot of high-pitched violin tremolo, huge banks of violins, often flanked by FFFF piccolos at the highest frequencies, and at the opening of the 3rd in B9 Guilini/VPO '88 this sound should be ….

Paul, it has nothing to do with the number of violins, with frequencies or with sound. The opening is VERY complex from musical, ethnical and philosophical perspective. The way how sonically one can make it to sound is completely up to the owner of the any given system.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

11-22-2024

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,671
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	10
Post ID:	27717
Reply to:	27714

Tha Part of Sound in Music (for myself)

Granting that I misunderstood your post, without getting too windy, it is in fact sound that I process that conveys the Message, and for me the Sound and even parts of Sound are relevant to the interpretation of the Music. Agreed it might be any instruments playing anything, but my experience with interpreting B9 from the CD in question is as stated. As I have speculated many times, there are probably people who could get a lot from B9 hearing it streamed through earbuds. Not I. Re-reading, it still reads to me as though you especially tuned your playback to deliver the Message to you from the B9 CD in question?

Best regards
Paul S

12-19-2024

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,671
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	11
Post ID:	27770
Reply to:	27717

B9, Jochum, Staatskapelle Dresden, 1982, LP

From the start this recording sounds to me as though Jochum is "accommodating" his orchestra. While the rendering is deft in terms of promoting the main themes, much of the special-to-Bruckner alternate themes, complex groupings and chromatics are subdued here, seemingly in the interests of getting the recording done in as few takes as possible, or perhaps I am reading into it and this is just the way Jochum hears the symphony, himself. Not to denegrate the playing, which is good enough, rather it is not Giulini/VPO. I had listened to 1/2 of this Adagio with headphones before I ordered the LP, and I liked the way the strings took the lead so decisively, in a spare, "modern" way. Too bad it did not come across as well via my big rig. For all we might suppose, the LP here has much less "dynamic range" than the Giulini DG CD. Again, I think this has more to do with the interpretation than the recording, per se, but I thought I'd mention it. If this is David Hurwitz' favorite B9, I wonder why. I should listen to him (and this recording) again. I am still a long way from understanding this symphony, but I have 4 other versions of B9 that I like at least as well as this one. The LP is an original from Angel (EMI), with good surfaces.

Paul S

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