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  »  New  Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..  Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     478  2947784  03-28-2010
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  2157344  07-26-2009
10-27-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 241
Post ID: 24493
Reply to: 24492
I am back.
Had a rare event today for a guy with 3 kids under 3. As the playback is “mystery free” today I spent some time to recalibrate everything and then spent a spectacular time listening 3-5 movements of M2 with Saito Orchestra under Ozawa from 2000. I had really great time, I did not have as much pleasure from playback for good 2 years, the house change then twins… 
 
A few words about sound. Generally it is back and it is very nice. I do feel that I need to put the Macondo R and L channels for 1 feet closer to each other. Also, the lower bass, the VERY lower bas is not as I use to. What I use Macondo/Milq in Boston listening the room was much smaller then what I have now. In my last listening room I had midbass horns and a ULF channels for sub bass. Now I drive everything with Milq. I get good 30Hz in this room, primary due to me need to deal via crossover with room modes at 60Hz. The bass is fine, perfectly listenable but the last deep “weight” is not there. I did roll off saintly my tweeter to compensate it and it is feel good. I have no frustration to keep it as it. I might play with EQ for sub bass and with getting a few more DBs from Milq LF but I have no truly need. 
 
I am glad to be back…

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-28-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 242
Post ID: 24494
Reply to: 24493
I need some volume…
This morning  we all: Amy, kids, nanny, cats were watching  Schleswig-Holstein festival from 2000 where Gunter Wand was leading  his North German Radio Symphony Orchestra with Bruckner 8.  The kind were playing with my laser rangemeter, women were drinking coffee and eating halva, cats were searching a new spot to pee and I was thinking that with some quite recordings when I have a good brass crescendos I need more volume. The spectra composition of Macondo now is very fine but for the size of the room I have I need more gain.  
 
Well, gains is tricky subject. If I want to stay in class A then I have a very limited power reserve, I would estimate that I have 3-4dB left before I got to A2. So, considering that some records are very soft I think if I have 6dB more gains it would be great. I should not even need to worry about flooding of the input stage of my power amp: the 6E5P has 4.5V bias…
   
So, I was thinking about some kind of active gain stage that I would put in the tape loop of my Placette preamp. Alternative would be another active preamp but I downs that I will find anything as transparent out there and anything that have out impedance of few ohms. I spoke with Guy Placette and he told me that he has a devise that has 6dB gain that I can use after his preamp and that devise has 8R output impedance. I did not try it yet but frankly I would like do not daisy chain the buffers. So, I am wondering…
 

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-28-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,672
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 243
Post ID: 24496
Reply to: 24494
Line Gain
I suppose you have done the math on the input swamping, and/or you have run a simulation, and I suppose you know your amps sound OK with 6 dB more input.  So, ask Guy if he will send it "on approval".  I suppose it will be SS, discreet amps, or maybe op amps.  I have "heard" it done right by the Boulder phono pre-amp, and Guy will do as good a job as anyone to make this disappear, so if it would work, this seems like a way to do it, all right.


Best regards,
Paul S
10-28-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 244
Post ID: 24500
Reply to: 24494
What a brilliant idea!
I have so much fun today. I sent the whole kids with their nanny and mom to a Boston children museum along with ants and with grandparents and deeded to stay home to work on my listening room. Since I did not have good sound before I did not particularly cared about the room decor and room organization but now as the playback is back to the business I become a bit anal and I want the room to be as I want. It will take for a while to resort some mixed up during the moving recording, to hang the artworks and to do many other organization task. So I was sitting in my listening chair blasting Bartok sting quarters and making my “to do list” and suddenly a brilliant idea hit my mind.  
 
As now I am driving my 50-125 midbass from Milq bass channel and the same amp is driving the bass sub 40Hz. So, even though I have a series cap in midbass that should decuple the Midbass and Lower Bass but it is still 6 dB per octave and to a degree my lower bass much be overly damped by my midbass?  Would it be something that is responsible for some “very mild softness of lower end hardness” that I described above? So, ides was to let the bass Milq to drive ONLY the lower bass tower, like in “old good times”? How to do it? It means I need to drive my Midbass from somewhere else…
 
Examining the Milq schematic I come to a great idea: why now to drive my Midbass from Injection Chanel.  The Injection Chanel is a full range Milq with just an attenuator in front of it. It drives a single Tannoy Red at -12dB with 125Hz high pass filter. God! This cannel is begs to drive the Midbass. So, what I need to do is to open up the Injection Chanel input attenuator, assuring the full gain and put the attenuator to speaker level for whatever would need attenuation. It is possible that since the Midbass is 99dB sensitive and Tannoy in beginning of 90s but need to run well attenuated then both Midbass and Injection Channels will need the same gain, that would be so much fun!!! 

InjectionChanelMidbass.JPG

 
The benefits are VERY clear. My lower bass will be less compromised and I can get rid of the series cap from Midbass as I do not need Tannoy to work at lower frequencies.  Also, the Injection Chanel has much more suitable OPT and loading for single Vitavox then my bass channel.  
 
I am very optimistic with this idea. It is become very elegant and getting rid so much complexity! I truly forgot that I have a full range Melquiades built in into my Super Melquiades. I am telling you. The guy who did it was a genius!!!

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-28-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014
Post #: 245
Post ID: 24503
Reply to: 24500
The full monty
Romy, that 6C33c is also only running one triode...you also have the option to wire up the other filament to increase power if required.
10-29-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 246
Post ID: 24505
Reply to: 24503
Yep. I know.
Yes, I am well aware of it and I was thinking about it. I do not think that power will be a factor in there. The Injection Chanel running well attenuated, requires no power and the midbass is 50Hz channels. As I connect it I will run the test seeing how deep it sited in class A. If I had no headroom in there then I am for sure can put the second plate in use. Still, I am thinning in context of the given channels about both plate option not as power but as loading. The second plate will drop the tube impedance twice and will make the midbass to me much more “relaxed”. I do not know if I will need it but to have this reserve is very nice.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-29-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 247
Post ID: 24517
Reply to: 24505
Just like a clockwork!!!
Got converted my Midbass to run from Injection Chanel Milq, the full-range one. The reference level to drive Midbass is set at -8dB Melquiades Chanel C, so gain and power is not a problem, so I need ~ extra 6 dB to attenuate the signal for the Injection Chanell, it will be not difficult. The impact of the LF is exactly as I predicted and with all honesty is spectacular in my observation. The measurement-wise I did not get more or less bass but the lower bass now is WAY less damped then before. So, as the music called for hard, loud and aggressive but controlled lover bass than now my Woofer Towers with Milq do truly outstanding job. I list LOVE the sound of those drivers. I have now the same type bass as I use to be in Boston listening room. The bass goes as low as it needs to be to be musical and does not do any audio-things. VERY glad with the change. 

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-29-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 248
Post ID: 24520
Reply to: 24517
Macondo calibration check sheet 2017
Seven years back and I finished my former installation I made up a Macondo calibration check sheet.  I do not think that anybody care about it and I did it purely for myself.
 
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=14&postID=14994#14994
 
 I many times returned to the check sheet to recalibrate the Macondo that take minutes. For someone who run a single drives with a single amps it might sound as ridicules. Trust me. Of you run 14 channels playback with 12 amplifiers and zillion cables then you do have to have a fast test for the playback. Anyhow, below is the new Macondo calibration check sheet 2017. You might completely ignore it and I post it and bookmark is to make sure that it will not be lost.

MacondoCalibration2017.jpg



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-01-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 249
Post ID: 24536
Reply to: 24520
I do not like it this arguing ...
If you think that I am not an idiot then read further.  I have been looking at my Macondo calibration check sheet above and I have that stupid itch in my brain that scream to me: “ Romy, my God, the two drivers in own sealed enclosure at the left channel  are not connected and sit in there just a space holders!!!” The same itchy spot of my brain immediately begin to devise the ULF channel that would sit at 15-120Hz with 24dB filter and add the “last exhale”. The same stupid itchy spot see a high gain 200W amp to do so, perhaps a plate amp with EQ. Then the sane part of the brain asks: what the fuck do you need it, I dose sounds fine with no complications or addition. The parts of the brain are arguing  and I do not like it.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-01-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014
Post #: 250
Post ID: 24537
Reply to: 24536
You know the voices are right...
...you should do what they say

...haha...yes, I would at least experiment with sub 20Hz with those spare drivers.  I could be in the same position myself if I build my array 8 drivers tall but only need let's say 6 a side...a little AB amp to those two drivers on each side and the neighbours will never know why their windows shake at night.
11-02-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 251
Post ID: 24538
Reply to: 24520
Some freaking magic.
There are some things that I truly cannot explain in Macondo topology. I am kind of the author of the Macondo topology. Did not “invent it” of cause, rather just formulated and I should know everything about the Macondo application? Ended I know a lot, I know how the use what I know but there some aspect that are complete mystery for me. I know it works but I have no idea why. One of such of the aspects is the proximity of Macondo listening.

 
The common practice of the Macondo topology recommend to put the listening position at 80%-90% of the space between the speakers. If you sit  too close then you have R and L channels with missing middle image presentation or the middle image transition because too abrupt and if you go too far then everything sounds like mess to me. So, we have space between the speakers proportional to the listening distance. Of cause we presume that we have proper space from wall and many other basic factors. 
 
The between speakers distance to listening distance ratio kind of work but there is always that magic spot where the alignment of Macondo jump over the roof. I have no idea why. As the listening distance hit close to 6 feet (to the mouth of upper bass horn, which would be probably about 8.5 feet to the diaphragms) then Macondo is really getting alive.  I set now 6.3 foot from upper bass horn and 11 feet apart horns. I moved the horns closer and the screen now can’t be easily dropped down. In this kind of ridicules configuration for such a large room the sound the Macondo’ sounds jump like a wounded in ass antipodes, with very nice imaging and with very nice space mapping. The integration, the colors, the decay…everything gut get absolutely alive with this close proximity. Perhaps it is just a way why how I get accustomed to listen but it is what it is. But this is why I consider myself an elite audio listener… 
 
I still have no explanation why a foot wider and a foot farther the whole effect is collapsing. It should not be. If I have a pair of some kind of box speakers then they are forgiving in term space vs distance. The Macondo is not. No explanation, just magic…
 

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-02-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 177
Joined on 06-12-2009
Post #: 252
Post ID: 24539
Reply to: 24538
Explanation
I am thinking that there is an explanation and it has to do with a narrow sweet spot, where the large system sums properly with reduced amount of chaotic room reflections, with a smeared timing. I noticed a similar effect with my system and if I reduce the physical area of sound source (to approximate closer to a point source) the room interference is reduced, the sweet spot is enlarged. I think that the larger the system, the uglier the sound that the room sees (mostly timing alignment of channels) and throws back at you. This is my explanation, although a crude one. But I have tested it and always come back to the same explanation, the same problem of a large system with multiple sources of sound.For example, a small Tannoy V8, with it's limitations and handicapped sound, performs the trick of coherent sound projection very well -- disturbingly well.Have you tried turning off channels, one at a time and observing how the sound forms in the areas where it's usually a mess?
11-03-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015
Post #: 253
Post ID: 24540
Reply to: 24538
11 feet apart
When you say, your horns are 11feet apart, does this mean from acoustic centre line, or the outside perimeter of the upper bass horn. If it is from the outside perimeter of the upper bass horn you are having a similar setup with mine. When they are about 3,5m apart like I have them now, which is a little wider than yours, the depth of the image, the textures, the whole aliveness and complete disappearing act of the speakers is really mind blowing.

The whole effect does not collapse with a foot apart with mine. But, if I do that, then I have to change a lot of things. First is how far I sit. Then the midrange horn attenuation. The amount of toe in. The acoustic treatments in the room. Then you can have a very similar effect, a little less exciting but a very well balanced sound. 

For these practices, the best I found out is to decide with horn stack only. Then adjust the bass afterwards. It is much easier to decide with everything that is working approximately over the schroeder frequency of the room.
11-03-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 254
Post ID: 24541
Reply to: 24540
Juts a proposal.
In my current scenario I have slightly under 11 feet between the MF driver diaphragms. The optimum listening distance in my view somewhere between 8.5 and 10 feet with the acoustic center line pointed to shoulders. This is my typical configuration and it works for me very well for me. The listening distance off cause is not set on stone and to great degree is contingent upon the location of the speaker of the given topology (and I am taking here ONLY about Macondo topology) in the room, the proximities to the walls, the acoustic treatment and many other factors. That all is not a mystery. The mystery is that as the listening distance is set that with any other speaker topology you can slightly widen the distance between the speakers and move the listening distance slightly further. With most of the speakers it works fine but not with Macondo. As soon some “magic” balance of space vs distance is violated the sound goes to hell much faster then I observe with any other speakers. 
 
 
I do not agree with the explanations above. The leading idea that I have is that as the listening distance move further then the time aliment curve become more flat. This screws us the time alignment. This is just a proposal. I did not test is and do not realign the Macondo timing if I move my listening chair a foot further. So, this effect would be present in all acoustic systems that are tall have HF transducers at the peripherals.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-04-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 106
Joined on 02-15-2009
Post #: 255
Post ID: 24542
Reply to: 24494
Stronger preamp
Dear Romy,
Try EAR 312. it may help.
11-05-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 256
Post ID: 24543
Reply to: 24542
A stronger preamp and sick Paravicini?
 ArmAlex wrote:
Dear Romy,
Try EAR 312. it may help.
There is a very little info about the EAR 312 and I do not know if it is “stronger”. Wherever I looked I was not able to find the output impedance numbers.  It looks like the preamp use transformer-coupled SS outputs, I am not sure why it does so. To keep the noise out? That will be strange… 
 
I also not comfortable with the Paravicini name. Do not get me wrong, he is an excellent designer but I feel that very much might be a typical industry idiot. A few years ago he sent me a few emails blaming me that I am stealing his ideas and degrade him with my “End of Life Phonostage”. That was absolutely ridicules. I explain to him that I very much at my site gave him credit in his design of 834. The modification of the circuit was not mine; the only thing that I did was introducing the air caps in feedback and to compliment it with Expressive Technology II transformer. He accused me that I “build my financial success on his bones” and as soon I heard it I advised him to go fuck himself. Mr. Paravicini chooses a wrong door to knock with his paranoia.  So, I doubt that I would engage off the shelf Paravicini product. I do think that Paravicini was juts confused in his assessment of my objective but honestly I have no interest or patience to deal with hi-fi industry Morons.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-05-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004
Post #: 257
Post ID: 24544
Reply to: 24543
Sick? No.
But Tim is a very difficult man. To everyone.
11-05-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 106
Joined on 02-15-2009
Post #: 258
Post ID: 24545
Reply to: 24543
Strong pre
 Romy the Cat wrote:
 ArmAlex wrote:
Dear Romy,
Try EAR 312. it may help.
There is a very little info about the EAR 312 and I do not know if it is “stronger”. Wherever I looked I was not able to find the output impedance numbers.  It looks like the preamp use transformer-coupled SS outputs, I am not sure why it does so. To keep the noise out? That will be strange… 
 

Unfortunately I can't lend it for a listen, I'm too faraway! The system in which 312 is being used is quite different with yours of course. But what i know is when I used more than one set of output many pre amplifiers kind of die. Not this one, even using 2 sets of long interconnects it's very stable and no sound degradation. That's why I thought it may be powerful enough. I can send you some pics from inside if you are interested.
11-05-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 259
Post ID: 24546
Reply to: 24545
I think it will be no 312....
When you use more than one set of outputs in a pream many BAD preams will die, but this is also would be depending of the power amps’ input impedance.  If two sets of long interconnects caused sound degradation then it was not bad preamp but VERY BAD preamp.  Generally, a high current, DC coupled preamps should have the lowest output impedance and it looks like your 312 is the topology as above. I am not sure what the “psychologically healthy Paravicini” made in his preamp putting there output transformers.  Anyhow, it does not look as it is a common preamp in my part of the world and I do not think I will be able ever to evaluate it.  Even if I did I am not sure I would use it as I do not want Mr. is to “build his reputation on my bones”.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-18-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 260
Post ID: 24566
Reply to: 24538
The new room is officially open.
Today is a first day since we moved to the new house last June when a local audio guy comes on over to do some listening as I feel that the room and playback setup is over. It is kind of important to me to have this introvertial milestone, to know that my playback is up and running and to feel that this part of my comfort is… comfortable. It is funny as when we were hunting for a new house then to have a good listening room objectives were very deeply sited into our requirements. We did not like the house initially but I did feel that this listening room had a good potentials and it was something that made wify to see and to examine the house during second showing. She did ask me how long it will take for me to setup the listening room, and she did imply in that time to rebuild my midbass horns. We were expecting the twins then and I told her that it will take 3-4 year to open the new listening room for business. So, I am running 1.5 year ahead of schedule…


There is a tone of thing that I still need to do in my listening room: organize the CD/LP/Video/tapes alphabetically as it used to be, find somewhere 3-6 extra DB volume, figure out how to use video and DAW with Larry Gold at the same time, try to put in ULF use the lest channel extra 2 scan speak drivers and so on… but the intrinsic bones of the playback Room/Macondo/Milq operation is already setup and I am content with what I getting here.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Page 13 of 15 (284 items) Select Pages:  « First ... « 11 12 13 14 15 »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..  Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     478  2947784  03-28-2010
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  2157344  07-26-2009
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