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  »  New  Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..  Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     478  2947759  03-28-2010
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  2157342  07-26-2009
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Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 161
Post ID: 23290
Reply to: 23288
I am looking for inspiration.
I had a good listening session this Sunday. The Tchaikovsky 5 and Mahler 3rd. I shut down my ULF and was listening just with the rest of the system. I was thinking what the hell I can do with lower knee of my midbass. I absolutely adore what Vitavox dove in upper and mid region. Now I need to think about the lower end and it is not so good and it even screws up my ULF. This is very problematic thinking as a pair of VItavox per channel (in parallel) does a perfect much to my system in term of acoustic output with a fully opened Milq and I for sure would like do not lose it. 
 
The idea it build a larger box that is kind of sound rational does not attracts me. The Vitavox 15” that I use has QTS of 0.202 AND IT IS very problematic for sealed enclosure. The only way how it might be “worked” is to have smallish box and overly damped wall. Something that I have done and it worked very fine as experiment but not going to be good enough as a perm solution. I knew it and this is why I did not invest a lot on the interim midbass project. Now is the question is: what to do next. 
 
With the Vitavox 15” the QTS is begged to be make is ported box but I do not like any ported sound. I might smudge QTS by using a narrow horn with front porting but I never like how this topology sound. To change drivers is kind of problematic as I need a pair of 100db woofers, hard to get with good sound. So, I am not sure what to do and I am looking for inspirations.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 162
Post ID: 23291
Reply to: 23290
Vent that woofer
Romy, you have documented elsewhere here that a port can be useful IF you crossover above the port frequency. I have had similar experiences with well damped, high passed transmission lines. Some woofers like room to breath!

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
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Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 163
Post ID: 23292
Reply to: 23291
I do not know yet what to do.
I was thinking about it. The low QTS of the driver does make is a good candidate for ported enclosure. It hypothetically it might be possible to experiment with it but it might be gone only after I build the enclosure as it is impossible to predict how it will sound, at least I have no experience to do it. The low QTS driver roll of bass uselessly very rapidly and they need to be placed in a horn with horn equalization and trout reaction make the fast bass loll of more controlled and smooth. The port does it the same to a degree but with own puss that I have no knowledge how to control.  I am accustomed to very slow decaying midbass, I do not need it to go low but I need it to go very sluggish almost euphoric. I love when MF and HF are supported but super soft midbass pedal point, not even the pedal point note but rather the pedal point softness. I do not know how to get this softness from ported box, I am not saying it is impossible, I just do not know what virtual knob to turn in order to get there. In my past I had time to experiment, learn for mistake and do it again differently. Not today…. I am a bit at lost now.  I have a view ideas but none of them guaranteed that I get what I want. With bass it is different than MF. With MF you can change the things and to get different result but with bass you got it or you do not got it and the changes the things need to be made mostly by strategic then tactical means.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,672
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 164
Post ID: 23293
Reply to: 23292
Port vs. Not Sealed
I agree that the right 15" is a nice size for mid-upper bass.  I suppose yours are the 15" Vitavoxes that were made to go in boxes?  Of course, the usual reason for ports is to "extend" LF, and most modern LF drivers are used in something like this, since the idea these days always seems to be to get all the LF a driver will do.  On the other hand, if you just want an old driver with a thinner membrane to "breathe" and sound "alive", you might lose some LF extension.  In fact, it's likely. There is the open back box, of course, and the open back with the "curtain" behind the driver.  I have experimented with many holes of different sizes in the back of a lower MF (12" driver) cabinet, and I will soon try 15" driver in similar but larger boxes, hoping to preserve the good upper bass I've gotten from 15" in large open baffles, and just crossing my fingers about LF extension.  Some of the old "factory" boxes had several slots around the front, but to date I've only heard sound suitable for theaters from these. Anyway, if you are decided on a box size, just messing with stuffing and the back might be a fairly easy way to learn more about your Vitavox, like how low you can get it without choking it.  One advantage you have, of course, is to equalize at line level.



Best regards,
Paul S
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kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015
Post #: 165
Post ID: 23294
Reply to: 23290
Ported
Maybe you remember, even though I liked sealed enclosures I chose the ported bass boxes for my system. The reason was the TAD 1601b's in my situation. They just work and sound better with ported enclosures as they were designed to be used that way.

Maybe sealed is better, maybe ported that is not the subject here. The thing is to make the correct implementation for the correct components for the chosen compromises. I was always weary of the port noise. I had so many studio monitors pass before my ears Smile in the recording studio and I can always hear the ports! So it was a big problem for me to choose this way. Then I found out, with correct way to do it and over-engineering you can overcome the port noise. So, simulate before building, check the port air speed in the simulation. I have dual Tad 1601b's in 298lt boxes with dual flared ports. You can even be a few cm's in front of it, still you would not hear anything and I sit 5 meters away...

So for the time being, I think you can use ported enclosures, just build the correct box and build it good!
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Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 166
Post ID: 23295
Reply to: 23294
No port for me, if possible...
Kodomo, I do not like ported sound, it always have a problem with the way how ported enclosures present vowels. You can tune them in this way or in that way but all of the ported systems I heard have the own characteristic coloring vowel at the very bottom. Each system might have own vowel but the system put the very same lower octave vowels to all music. As the result, listening the playback with ported bass, the cello of the Russian Borodin String Quarter, the bassoon of London Symphony, the Wagner tubas of the Czech Philharmonic and the bass claret of MET orchestra, all have the same constant vowels that acts as a common denominator in all music.  I do not like and I do not know how to make a ported box that will not have this effect. 

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 167
Post ID: 23296
Reply to: 23292
Might...... be....
I was thinking and thinking last couple days what to do with my lower midbass situation. I do need to use 2 drivers per channel with 100dB efficiency to get the dBs I need to match Macondo and Milq’s bass channel gain.  I do want to use Vitavox 15” for their stunning upper bass. I do not want to go for ported topology and the Vitavox15 need room to gasp. So, I might go two china’s midbass. I can get a pair of Altec 151G let say and make two of them to run lower midbass  and then let Vitavox to run a higher midbass, making let say 50Hz as divider point. With low order filtration the filter will be irrelevant and I am afraid that with higher order filtration I will lose the entire “space”. I do have room for more enclosures in there…. However, it does not sound elegant to me… 
 
The only option that I feel is on the table that is cleans and would not have too many unknown would be to take advantage of my listening room profile and implant a midbass horn in there. The idea looks very elegant. It will not hard to build. I will use a pair of Vitavox 15” in 10” hole per driver, not the 8” as I use to do before. I think the Vitavox 15” needs to have less compression and to be more “freestanding”. With such a large whole the horn will not have a long neck in beginning. I will have 7 feet before the first bend and pretty much unlimited length to the horn mouth. I can’t show it on the picture but I will have the 3 ways mouth opening that should be more visual appealing. If I go this direction then I need to circulate where will be the mode in the bend and where the mode will be in proportion to the room and the rest of the speakers. It I possible that will be able to spread it or to use it somehow. The interesting thing is that even it will be a relatively large horn but it will be not a huge time delay, just 1-2 msec. 
 
I need to measure everything and to plan everything if I go this route. For sure it will be the best use of my Vitavox drivers and I am pretty sure I will be to get the SPL I need. I wonder, would it be worth for me to take a week off and to render this project? NewRoomMidbassIdea_July2017.jpg


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 178
Joined on 09-01-2005
Post #: 168
Post ID: 23297
Reply to: 23296
K-Horns?
If you have suitable space behind your listing position you could maybe use a pair of K-horns with a single Vitavox the same way you used your big midbass horns in the old house. There are always some empty cabs , original or clones available . They should sound great within 40 Hz -120Hz and not clutter the room too much. 
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Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 169
Post ID: 23298
Reply to: 23297
K-Horns… hmmm very interesting…
I do have platy of space and the LF section for K-Horns might be a very interesting idea to try. The Vitavos was dese to use in the UK replica of K-Horn. I never liked the K-Horn too much as they always project imaging that is “flat” in the wall. In my case if I do use the K-Horn the will be caring juts one octave and the rest will be coming for my horns. I would need to agree to live with Midbass time misalignment however… Still, it would be a good direction to experiment as I think that would make my ultra-low QTS driver to decal much slower at the bottom knee. I do not mind to try. Do you know if people sell empty cabinets for the LF section only?

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 178
Joined on 09-01-2005
Post #: 170
Post ID: 23299
Reply to: 23298
They do appear
on used market from time to time  and also were made by speakerlab and yes I only thought of bass bins nothing else. Why misaligned?Your old straight mid-bass in the wall speakers were not misaligned and K horns positioned right may fall into perfect alignment as well , I think.
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kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015
Post #: 171
Post ID: 23300
Reply to: 23299
Path length of khorn
Khorn has about 2meters path length so they have to be positioned closer with false corners in Romy's case to be aligned. If they are at the back one has to add the distance from horns plus the path length of the khorn bass bin and delay the rest of the system accordingly. Romy would not use digital delays so this is out of question I guess.
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Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 172
Post ID: 23301
Reply to: 23300
The memory lane.
I very much do not mind to try the biggest Khorn bass section with my setup. I am trying to figure out how to do it with buying the damn thing…  
 
I need to say that the best midbass I hear in my life was from Khorn, well not from Khorn itself but from Vitavox CN-191, which was UK replica of Khorn. It was back in 2001-2002, if I am not mistaken. David Karmeli from Damoka Audio brought to Vegas a par of vintage Germans Klangfilms that made everybody pee with steam. I never had any warm feeling about David’s Klangfilms, however David also brought to Vegas a pair of Vitavox CN-191 with 151 drivers.  He did not show the Vitavox and there was no room for them, so he dumped then it a corner of some kind of secondary room and did not even connect them. One day, at evening, when the Morons are gone he decided to plug them in. I was hanging around and did not care too much what he was doing, and he was doing something for a while and the Vitavox sound like shit. Then David informed us that he confused the polarity of the speakers and now it “should be better”. The sound suddenly turned to “holly shit” status. All of the sudden the speakers went alive and it was absolutely stunning. There was problems that I would comment in that sound BUT the midbass was truly beyond believe. Exactly after that events I went and bought a few very same drivers as I did feel that it was absolutely the best midbass I even heard. They were driven by Lamms ML2.0 I need to note that I heard CN-191 in a few other settings, including the very same David’s Vitavox CN-191. Any other time they sound like shit. I think David was bringing the same CN-191during consecutive years into different rooms with pretty much unsuccessful results. In THAT Las Vegas however, in THAT very lucky room, the stars were aligned and it was truly midbass firework. So, taking about the corner loading idea I do have a kind spot in my hard and the hope that I with the same drivers will be able to get the same sound. How will it work in context of my specific corners/ room I have no idea.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008
Post #: 173
Post ID: 23302
Reply to: 23296
Outside
I know it does not make the project any smaller but is not the sloping part of the ceiling in contiguity with the external roof? I am sure your neighbours will not mind a couple of chimneys coming out of that part of your house...
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martinshorn
Germany
Posts 114
Joined on 04-14-2017
Post #: 174
Post ID: 23303
Reply to: 23302
KHorn facts and truth
Some wrong oppinions here Smile As a fan I studiet it very precise. I mean very down to each inch.
The path length is 1.68 Meters, Throat 250 square centimeter (7.5x33), mouth 2x25 / 50 x 97 cm = 5000sqcmThat makes a compression of almost 4:1Gives a cutoff freq. of 50Hz (with half efficiency). Below the 50 the third harmonic dramatically increases.At about 90Hz it peaks to good efficiency, below drops with 2nd order, below cutoff with 4th.From 90 to 180 the native Horn efficiency is 111dB SPL *Above 150 to 340 the efficiency increases to 118dB SPL ** due to compression ratio.Above 340 a smooth rolloff can be achieved ***Dramatic efficiency and lower distortion can be easily achieved by stacking 2 on top of each other, connected parallel if resistance is ok.Last option makes it a brutal real-estate-tear-down machine Big Smile
footnotes:* important to avoid combfilter effects above 100Hz by using a lid (never skip it like some do!)** same rule applies to tight connection to the corner without airgaps including (ideally even lift above the baseboard from the floor) and apply a proper reflector on the edge (i use a 12cm square timber put in the edge, works as 2x45° splitter)*** 340Hz approx 3rd order rolloff is due to 7 liters driver-membrane volume working as a lopass. You can extend that 1 or even 2 octaves using a DIY-phaseplug to reduce the volume 
The incredible advantage is the edge which cuts the mouth to an 8th of the size.But something more important happens:
Each normal speaker placed certain distance in front of a wall has a big problem: the alisson effect.With a quarter lambda distance to the wall, the usual speaker with 3 foot distance has a steep notch nockout around 80-90Hz.Using the Khorn will prevent ANY reflections from floor or walls. You get a really neat smooth response over many octaves.The alissons work like a notch, and such resonate very long time after. Not having such on the K's is in my believe one of the keys to the dry crisp sound. Apart from low intermodulation distortion. Read this (german translation) from Klipsch himself: 
 http://allabout-hifi.magnetofon.de/index.php?topic=490.0
Different chapter is the timealignment. You can actually only overcome that via DSP delay.I also skipped that one some passive XOs and you can hear that even crossing quiet low.On drums especially, instead of a crisp punch, you get a soft bouncy rolling "tock-flummmm" drum.Its subtle, good ears will notice, its a coloration yes, but one of the very pleasant ones! As it takes the harshness without getting boomy at all.I must say i love the fact not having wall reflections, so i use 2 stacked left and right, stereo, 90-340Hz.Due to the hi crossover @ 340 it pulls the lows a slight note wider and deeper into the stage. Which makes it actually more realistic and live-alike (considering the technical problems of stereophonic phantom-source location of low tones getting more monaural in human perception).
My 2 cents Smile
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martinshorn
Germany
Posts 114
Joined on 04-14-2017
Post #: 175
Post ID: 23304
Reply to: 23303
Khorn extension
A buddy tried for fun something that came to our mind. Extending the front. He put a quartersqare on the flat face. By that you smoothly extend and connect both mouth ends left and right. You can also use a half circle with 80cm diameter.In combination with a longer lid, it almost triples the mouth size.The listening result blew me away, literally. It even blew the curtains, hanging 4 meters far, moving 20cm back n forth when the subsonics of an e-bass guitar was playing super dry and clean with 120 decibel... i could feel it in my lungs.And that was with 1 single KHorn, 1 single 15inch average PA driver on a 80 watts standard amp. Mind blowing! Ull never forget Smile
But just for fun. Due to distortion i would always cut the khorn latest at 50, ideally even 90 cycles and get another subwoofer in a closed box. Just cleaner.
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Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 176
Post ID: 23305
Reply to: 23304
The options available....
Yes, martinshorn, thank, what you said does make sense. What you say doe correlate with what my local guys say: 
 
http://www.northreadingeng.com/Klipschorn_model/basshorn_model.htm 
 
I never looked at the Khorns as bass section only. As the complete speaker, I had little interest but as midbass solution it does worth to try, I think. I will explore what kind options I have available...

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 177
Post ID: 23306
Reply to: 23296
The last night looking…
The last night I put the kids d and wife and bed and desired the spent some time with my playback like I use to: listening, thinking, experimenting, thinking again, smoking a good Padron Family Reserve 50 cigar… OK, I lie to you. I do not smoke in my listening room anymore but the rest was true…
Or new hour is relatedly big and the way how it made the listening room is acoustically isolated from the rest of the house and I my plays my music when the rest of the family sleeps… So I did for a few hours after 9 PM. I was not too comfortable with the sound I am getting lately and I thought to go to the bottom of it. This recent flash excitement that I got with the idea of Khorn is good but it is not the way how I usually thinking about audio.
The very first I did was the recalibration of Macondo based upon my initial check list. 
 
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=14&postID=14994#14994 
 
Then I discovered that one of the woofers in my midbass was disconnected. I can blame Thomas the Son or the cleaning lady, who knows but as I connected it the midbass certainly got to sound slower, as I wanted, and the imaging was back how I expected to be. The fixing of the woofer and calibration of the playback made Macondo to sound so distinctly recognizable. It has that unique very silky   and very not abusive sound that I so cherish… 
 
I did not turn the ULF for a whole evening and did not moved any speakers yet. I feel that connection the missing woofer made Macondo to sound more compiled and more imaging-wise collected, so I hold moving to 8-8-1 for now. As the last midbass woofer went online the HF cleaned up and become more prominent and they do not sink anymore in the right and left channels but rather more organically presented from the space between the speakers.  Or was only one woofer but it did give to me that “space” filling effect that I felt should be there. So, I fixed the whole presentation and lost some negative rage that developed during the last week.

Now about the bottom of the midbass. The faster then needed decay is not there anymore. I think I was reacted to a missing woofer in my right channel. The decay still has no right softness but I recognize that it is not a hardness but rather some strange coloration, almost like some crap that come from port but it is not as much tonal but more dynamic + tonal. I desired to focus on the problem and was trying to deal with it. First I decided to test the QTS reasoning. I opened up the whole for the binding posts on the midbass enclosure, creating a fake ports. There was no impact that I heard. Then I unscrewed the woofers and put a good 1” stick between woofers and baffle. To my HUGE surprised, even the sound change, but the hardness that I was fighting with did not go away. That was very interesting as it looks like the problem then was not acoustic but electric. I closed up the woofer and begin to look at the electrical part. The woofers are driving by LF channel of Milq, the 5.5R transformer, with 78Hz line level filter and additional 9mH coil at 150Hz at speaker level. Something in there did not work well. I played the plate current on the output stage and to my huge surprise the sound was changing very much.  I mean as you drive the plate current from 250V to 200V the sound should be changed but NOT in the way I was changing now.  The midbass channel is very far away from any current or voltage clipping and why the dropping of voltage made me to minimize my woofer hardness I do not know yet. Dropping voltage will raise the output impedance and very slightly drop the amp gain. If I defeat the hardness by dropping of the output impedance then I would understand what is going on but I minimize the hardness by raising the output impedance!!! This is very interesting and I need to think about it more. It is possible that filter coil somehow talk with VC inductance and opon a microscopic black hole where all be good sound goes? Anyhow, I need to experiment with it more but the fact that my problem might be electrical make me much happier.  

To be continue… 

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,672
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 178
Post ID: 23307
Reply to: 23306
LF Circuit Mysteries
Yes, it almost seems to "go against reason"; but who cares? I remember playing with the ML-2 operating points, and I also got the best sound overall - including LF - when I dropped the gain and used the 16 Ohm taps "downhill" into the load, and certainly I got the best "ambiance" this way, including LF.  Conversely, cranking the gain and/or using the 8 Ohm taps made the bass "faster" and correspondingly harder.  At the time, I may have developed a theory as to why this was so; but if I did, I've since forgotten it.  Anyway, now that you have all your woofers firing you can optimize your operating points for your present set-up, and if you're lucky, you will get by with just dialing in the speaker and listening locations.  As for the total quantity of LF, that looks like a large room, and maybe the floors are raised, so it could simply require a lot driver area/volume to move enough air in there?


Best regards,
Paul S
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Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 179
Post ID: 23311
Reply to: 23306
About the use of reading my own site.
 Romy the Cat wrote:
If I defeat the hardness by dropping of the output impedance then I would understand what is going on but I minimize the hardness by raising the output impedance!!! This is very interesting and I need to think about it more.

It is very useful to read my own site and my own writing to confirm that I was an idiot. Tonight I had a long listening session that included a spectacular (!!!) rendition of Mahler 3 by Semyon Bychkov and Cologne Symphony. In the middle of the last movement it came to me that, as I did a few times before, confused the direction of drivers damping. It is in reversed logic: the dropping the plate voltage increases the output impedance and DECREASES the damping of the drivers. As it “got” it the things are clearly revealed to me: I just have the over damped drivers. I got a resistor in series with the driver and the result was as expected: drop in gain and increase in lower end dynamics. Ok, now we are in a sensible business. I decided to go for radical measures. I opened up the midbass boxes and got rid all of the foam from them. The driver’s Q raised and now driving the underdamped midbass with idler amplifier I got my lower knee compression gone. It is VERY nice and I am very happy.

Very happy about the tightness, hardness  and compression that has been gone but not about the rest of the things. The sound did become uglier but in an understandable way now. As the damping become less and the driver is not so much “held” but the amplifier output the driver act up more flamboyant in term of frequencies response. If before my tricks with writing a slope from 140Hz to offset my 60Hz 10dB peak “kind of worked” and did not has too much tonal coloration but now it does not work anymore and I have very well defined tonal problem in the mid of my midbass.

Well, this is already easer thing to deal with, perhaps easer inly become there is no mystery about it. I need to spend some time with RTA and to find out where it comes from. Is it room, or it is some phase rolling out, or it is just one channel position. I do not know yet. I for sure do not want to write the notch filters to kill the thin and I would need to learn where it come from and how to address it naturally. I do not have fantasy that it will be easy. In worst case in my past if the room has the mode like this then I fixed it by slicing the channels in there and used the both slopes corrected the room problem. The 60Hz is VERY uncomfortable region for me and I would like do not have two midbass. Even if I use each of the drivers “before and after” 60Hz then I do not think the lower midbass will have the gain to get my SPL. So, I need to fine what my 60Hz peak come is from. It will be another day…

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 180
Post ID: 23312
Reply to: 23311
Another option, very interesting. Martinshorn speak up.
My local guy that I referred above informed me that he has Klipschorn type bass units in partial states of build that can be completed to my specific requirements. This is very interesting and I will be talking to him this week. However, I am not familiar personally with Klipschorn. I understand idea of cause but I have no practical experience to install the things and did not experiment with Klipschorn as midbass unit only. Furthermore I do not know what would be difference between Klipschorn and the “Klipschorn type bass units”.  Well, I know what would be the difference but I have absolutely no idea how the difference might or might not benefit sound. The corner loaded horns are own domain and I had very little practical exposure to it. 
 
To insult the injury my guy suggest that I can request my own specific requirements. I do not have any that has any proven result. Conceptually, if it were the corner loaded topology then the physical extending of my midbass channel into the room will be not there and I might not have that nasty 60Hz mode. If so then I can run the horn as low as I wish, so I do not min to go for 6-7 feet toll enclosure, perhaps even for double drivers enclosure. I have no idea if I ever need it. The time-align is still remind the main subject and there is no solution for it, I am for sure do not delay the main channels. My local guys sound intelligent about the Klipschorn, let him to talk and see what he will pitch to me: 
 
http://www.northreadingeng.com/Klipschorn_build/Klipschorn_build.html 
 
martinshorn, you look like know the Klipschorn in an out, if you were in my shoes and if you have a freedom to impose any specific requirements to Klipschorn then what would be your recommendations?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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