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   Home » Horn-Loaded Speakers» Ultimate MF compression driver? (46 posts, 3 pages)
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03-05-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 41
Post ID: 17906
Reply to: 17905
Practice is a criterion of truthfulness.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 haralanov wrote:
…. acoustic filter does not rotate electrical phase of the signal.

I do not think it is correct. The rotation of electrical phase is not the subject of filtration method but subject of slop and Q. Of you write the same Q by electrical, acoustic, digital or mechanic ways then you have the same phase shift. A horn, when it does low-pass filtration due to horn death, introduce the same phase shift as your electrical coil would do. This all well described in literature. Anyhow, I am not sure if it all has any practical interest. I myself is much more empirical way person and since I know that you do not deal with horns and discuss it only as theoretical exercise I am not sure what we are talking about. It does not mean that I disrespect what you are saying but I also do feel that some aspects you bring up has very little practical significant, at least among what I have tried.  Do not forget that compression drivers have one suspension, there is no internal spider like in your drivers. This makes the games very different. I think University driver has a compression drive with 6” diaphragm and second inner suspension, it was a model M4. It was a horribly sounding driver…

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-05-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
haralanov


Bulgaria
Posts 130
Joined on 05-20-2008
Post #: 42
Post ID: 17907
Reply to: 17906
Really? :-)
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
since I know that you do not deal with horns and discuss it only as theoretical exercise I am not sure what we are talking about.

Hahaha :-) This experiment was made a few days ago by a friend of mine who is speaker repair person. The modified compression driver is Soviet made 1A-16. If you have the chance to compare the single layer VC vs. the original VC and to hear how much better the lower inductance VC sounds in reality, you will no longer question the inductance importance. But everyone decides for himself... If you think the inductance should not be low - I'm OK with that, because it doesn't change the facts. 

 Romy the Cat wrote:
 haralanov wrote:
…. acoustic filter does not rotate electrical phase of the signal.

I do not think it is correct.

Come ooon, even the monkeys in the jungle know it is correct :-))

Everybody knows that acoustical filters has nothing common with the electrical/digital ones...

 Romy the Cat wrote:
A horn, when it does low-pass filtration due to horn death, introduce the same phase shift as your electrical coil would do.

The horns are not acoustical filters (although they behave like filters), because there is no sound absorbing material to absorb the HF part of the soundwave. They only boost the lower frequency range of their working spectrum, so their upper octave loses amplitude compared to their lower octave. This is called equalisation - not filtration (and it rotates the phase). The filtration is when you get a towel (or a paper cone) and put it in front of a given source of sound. And it does not rotate the phase :-)

Regards, Petar


"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." -A.E.
03-05-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 43
Post ID: 17908
Reply to: 17907
Monkeys in jungle...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 haralanov wrote:
This experiment was made a few days ago by a friend of mine who is speaker repair person. The modified compression driver is Soviet made 1A-16. If you have the chance to compare the single layer VC vs. the original VC and to hear how much better the lower inductance VC sounds in reality, you will no longer question the inductance importance.
  
And you know that’s there is no methodology to assure that you change ONLY inductance. I can give you many different aspects that you have changed when you re-winded the VC but you want to see only inductance.
 haralanov wrote:
Come ooon, even the monkeys in the jungle know it is correct :-))

Everybody knows that acoustical filters has nothing common with the electrical/digital ones...

I am no monkey in the jungle and I do not know it. When I asked the very same question to my technical experts a few years back than they explained to me that phase rotation is properly of Q not the property of filter topology. Would it be electric, mechanical, digital or acoustic filter the relation between phase shift and Q will be the same.
 haralanov wrote:
The horns are not acoustical filters (although they behave like filters), because there is no sound absorbing material to absorb the HF part of the soundwave. They only boost the lower frequency range of their working spectrum, so their upper octave loses amplitude compared to their lower octave. This is called equalisation - not filtration (and it rotates the phase). The filtration is when you get a towel (or a paper cone) and put it in front of a given source of sound. And it does not rotate the phase :-)

It is incorrect. Horns do low pass filtration and they rotate the phase all across the horn axes. Each single mm of the horn length the phase is rotating. A filtration is not when you get towel in front of a given source of sound. A filtration is a frequency dependant change of speed… or the phase shift as the monkeys in jungle call it…

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-05-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
haralanov


Bulgaria
Posts 130
Joined on 05-20-2008
Post #: 44
Post ID: 17910
Reply to: 17908
.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Cat, if you at least for a moment override your ego, you will eventually start to see some things that are beyond the curtains (of your own ego). I don’t care if you treat your horns as mechanical filters or not, because it is completely irrelevant to me. Continue to mask your compression driver break-ups with very resonating tubes and to use horn honk "creatively" and good luck in your "advanced" audio :-)

Bye.



"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." -A.E.
03-05-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 45
Post ID: 17911
Reply to: 17910
Riding the whatever….
fiogf49gjkf0d
Haralanov, I am not sure what it has to do with ego and why I need to see the things “beyond”.  If the things you are trying to address are irrelevant to you then do not insist that you opinion is relevant. Any deep MF horn act as low-pass filter, if you disagree then it is fine by me but it is so self-evident that I will not even argue about it. I have no problems with holding the compression driver break-ups by low-pass inductance, I know how to do it "creatively" and it is perhaps I am among of the very few people who ever made S2 to work “interestingly”. Warn you that what I say and what I write is what I have done, not what I try to visualize under the umbrella of “that is irrelevant to me”. If you have any practical experience or interest with compression drivers and horns than you would find something that I say more relevant and perhaps not serving my ego but your practice.  I still do not insist in anything. To understand what I do one needs to have an interest in the realm of audio practicing similar to what I do. Then the definition of “advanced audio” might be revealed… There are many roads to Rome but if you use one of them riding a horse then there is no reason for you to pontificate that riding a mule is a wrong way to arrive to Rome. The people who are ridding mules next to you will be looking at you as asking “what this man is taking about?”…

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-18-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 46
Post ID: 18629
Reply to: 16615
Other ways to use compression drivers....
fiogf49gjkf0d
http://www.anl.gov/videos/acoustic-levitation

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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