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02-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
serenechaos
lost alamos
Posts 86
Joined on 12-01-2007

Post #: 141
Post ID: 9825
Reply to: 9816
Bad apples?
fiogf49gjkf0d
KM,
I don't know how you come up with the belief that I conclude that "it's a bad performing driver." 
Either the 138, or the earlier 120... 

Or that because I didn't use 120s that i haven't heard them. 
And as every other report I've heard, 120s have a nice midrange. 
And every thing I've read about 138s midrange is also positive. 

As 138 was later, higher-end model, I thought perhaps Fostex "learned something," and applied it to new model? 
Even if different "series," they are both hi-end, non yellow cone, non whizzered, alnico magnet drivers. 
And to my ears, much less annoying, with more of what Romy calls "absolute tone" than FE127, etc. 

"Bad experience?" 
I didn't say (or imply) that either, unless you really believe a 5" driver is going to be "full range."  
I had to work with it a little, cut out the peaks, & put a tweeter in for the highs.  So?  
Romy's already done more work than that with Mini Me and isn't giving up... 
Wouldn't that be like saying 2A3s were bad because you tried more than operating point, or the very first one didn't work with the rest of your set-up? 

The "bad performing" element I have now is the enclosure. 
Been through three boxes, with different sounds, all annoying in some way; will keep trying. 

I will say at this point they sound very much like 5" feastrex in the same design enclosure a friend has, who built about the same time. 
Very close mids & highs for a fraction of the price... 
And I'm quite sure a different box will get rid of the "muffled" sound; it wasn't there in the TL. 

So again, good luck to Romy with the 120s, I would think they should work well, especially with "Bud dots." 
02-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
floobydust


currently roaming the US
Posts 62
Joined on 01-19-2009

Post #: 142
Post ID: 9829
Reply to: 9825
An olive branch?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Sorry Robert,

 Your opening line on "Good luck getting midrange from F120A for non annoying monitors." tended to set the mood for the rest of your post in a negative light for Fostex drivers, the F120A included (at least for me it did). While I will certainly agree that many of the FE series are hard to listen to, the F series is different in design and Fostex do not show anything beyond a very basic ported enclosure. The FE138ESR is suppose to be special, but reading thru the long DIYaudio thread on this driver has created a poor perception, coupled to the fact that Madisound has dropped the price yet again (probably trying to sell them off). The F120A has sold out 3 times in the last year despite price increases, some people are liking this driver, and not the FE138ESR.

 So if I was wrong, I'll offer the olive branch.... I do have a pair of FE138ESR drivers waiting for me when I get back the US. At some point I will fire them up and hopefully be able to share some views and thoughts on them as I also have the F120A and the Feastrex D5nf drivers. I also have very nice 45 and 2A3 amplifiers to drive them with, and yes, you can find some lesser operating points on both tubes.

 Regards, KM



... just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not after you ...
02-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
serenechaos
lost alamos
Posts 86
Joined on 12-01-2007

Post #: 143
Post ID: 9831
Reply to: 9829
"good luck" means good luck...
fiogf49gjkf0d
...no sarcasm was meant, nothing to "read between the lines." 

Several people seemed quite impressed w/ 138s in DIYaudio thread early on, said no tweeter ever needed, best mids they ever heard in anything, etc.  That was part of what prompted me to try them instead of 120s... 
I'm now guessing those people have very different taste,  have yet to hear decent horns, (e.g. planet 10 crew call blhs "horns"), or just can't hear the difference.  Many of them rant about FE127s as if they were as good as it gets, so I've learned to take it w/ a grain of salt...
And "good luck" with your 138s and D5nfs. 
I personally wouldn't recommend BVRs for either though, having heard them both in those cabinets. 
They can sound a lot better. 

The Fostex recommended boxes being only basic ported -- I'm guessing you're refering to 120s?
 138s have two recommended boxes, the "swan" design and a resonate pipe I'll probably try next. 
Will be very narrow, can fit in around horns, like mini me designs. 
I heard one @ RMAF w/ feastrex 5", was nice if kept in volume/dynamic/complexity bounds. 
Robert
02-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
floobydust


currently roaming the US
Posts 62
Joined on 01-19-2009

Post #: 144
Post ID: 9832
Reply to: 9831
Perception vs reality
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Robert,

 Agreed... many people rave about the FE126E in just about anything... yet, I find them irritating (upper midrange shout) before 1-watt sets in. The F120A (in a simple ported enclosure) is a completely different sounding driver. Still no idea what I'll do for the FE138ESR... was leaning towards the resonant pipe plans included.

 I built the BVRs for the D5nf over a year ago... not bad but bass shy and too low off the ground. I recently got the 30-liter triple ported enclosure plans directly from Feastrex... these are my next enclosure builds and will put them on custom stands to get the driver up higher. The D5s are impressive when driven well.

 In any case, do let me know how you fare with the FE138ESR.... especially if the resonant pipe enclosure works out. Cheers!

 Regards, KM



... just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not after you ...
03-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 145
Post ID: 9982
Reply to: 9781
The MiniMe bass sections.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Got last night the last bass drivers for MiniMe’s bass sections and put them all together. Even thought I still have problems with MiniMe uppers channels (the Fostex F120A drivers are still hatching) but the bass sections turned out to be very good. It is way more expensive then they need to be but the exploiting qualities and sound is very pleasing. I did not finish them yet as I do not know where to cut them at upper knee (it will depend where the F120A will roll of on my enclosure). I also did not fine-tune the port and rather am using the port flare with no pipe for a time being. Still, it is very satisfying sound. I got very slick and easy mandible LF section that are perfect for hide into the Macondo. My initial design with MF section sitting atop was too tall but the MF section on a dedicated stands and bass section stand alone turned out to be is absolutely perfect, even not intended from beginning, solution.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-18-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 146
Post ID: 10040
Reply to: 8138
Listening patterns: main vs. pilot playback
fiogf49gjkf0d

Hm, this is interesting.

I have my 2 shitty temporary monitors in Hamster position sublimated with a par of LF sections from MiniMe. They are not perfectly set up but quite listenable in it’s ad-hoc configuration driver by consumer PP SS amp. Here is what I found interesting. During the last 2 weeks I turned the big Macondo just 4.5 times.

First time it was 2 weeks back during broadcasting Bernard Haitink conducting LIVE Bruckner: Symphony No. 8 with Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra. I turned Macondo an hour early and warmed it up. After the concert I shut the Melquiades down.

Second time it was during the same week during Osmo Vänskä conducting LIVE San Francisco Symphony with Emanuel Ax played Mozart’s Piano Concerto No. 22. I started to listen it with my MiniMeed Hamster, like what I heard from San Francisco and turned the Macondo’s help

The half time was during the MET LIVE broadcast of Dvorak’s Rusalka. I was driving, liked the performance in car radio, got home, turned the Macondo/Milqs up but the MET’s sound was so disgusting that I shut down the Milqs and went back to the Hamster listening

The third time was this week during the LIVE broadcast of Hans Vonk lead Rotterdam Philharmonic with Mikhail Pletnev crashing through the Grieg’s Piano Concerto. I was listing it on the Hamsters but in the middle of the concerto I realized that after the Grieg Rotterdam will play Holsts’ The Planets. I turned the Milq on and tune the cooling fans off – speeding the Milq got hotter. I was shooting to listen the Neptune movement with it corals decay to darkness with full-bloomed Macondo and the fully-heated Milqs. It was a perfect timing and it sounded spectacular.

The last time it was yesterday when I was trying to prove to myself one more time my feelings that Stravinsky was not good conductors. A friend of my argued that Stravinsky was and proposed me to listed his “…Du Soldat” from 1961 with Israel Baker. I was playing the Colombia 6272 LP and of come for that evaluation I need the full Macondo’s authority.

That was it. All the rest time I was listening my “bad” speakers and I did not have a temptation to change anything – it was enough for me.  I played a lot of music those days and there were some other very good programs, including some LIVE programs but the Hamsters were enough. This brings an interesting forecast how much Macondo I might be using after I finch the MiniMe project with F120A driver. If the MiniMe will be fully balanced and calibrated then will it leave me with one or two deserving sessions per week what I will be encouraged to turn my playback at it full force? Well, whatever it will be but it certainly permit me to use those “hard to get” DHT tubes in less spearing way.

Anyhow, I am trying to evaluate what would be my listening pattern with main system and MiniMe after they will be fully running. I never had a sufficiently good “pilot system” and if you have an experience of prolong living with second playback then can you share what your listening hobbit are from the perspective of main vs. pilot playback?

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-28-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
yoshi
Jefferson (MA), United States
Posts 69
Joined on 05-04-2005

Post #: 147
Post ID: 10103
Reply to: 10040
My kitchen system
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have a second system in the kitchen. The speaker is a small Monitor Audio 2way which I picked up over 10 years ago for $500/pair (new). They are ported in the rear and hang from the ceiling in front of the brick wall, powered by chip amps.

This system doesn't tell me much about the quality of the recording, so I enjoy badly recorded good performances on this one, or use it when I just want to familialize myself with new music.

I tried a couple of different speakers (mostly small full rangers) in this system in the past, but always came back to this cheapie Monitor Audio. It adequately blurs the details, so you won't hear the minute nuances of the performance, but it won't exhibit any annoying anomaly and can communicate the grooves of orchestra pretty well.

Yoshi
03-28-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 148
Post ID: 10114
Reply to: 9778
Hm, either I am an idiot or anybody else are.
fiogf49gjkf0d

I got today the Fostex F120A with all latest and greatest modifications on it. I put is in a temp .7 cu feet box with pretty much open back to see what the Fostex will be all about. I drive it from a bad consumer SS, composite-chip Hitachi amp from 80s – bad sound but great huge analog meters.

OK, I admit that the amplification is crap but the sound that I got from Fostex F120A not good even with this amp. The initial connecting of the driver actually made me laugh – it was beyond all expectations bad. Surprisingly the driver was changing it sound right in front my eyes – I never see it like this and in ~60 minutes it was more or less stable in sound (It was burned-in by Planet10). However the sound is not what I necessary too toiled off. It has a strong effect of “paper cone sound” – something that I really hate in all of those drivers. The commentator of WGHB sound like he had his lips covered with thick motor oil – very unpleasant.  In the upper range it has sound like it talks inside of  2 gallon plastic contender with it’s walls covered with aluminum foil – very unpleasantly freaky feeling. The effect is greatly depends from how far I am from the driver axis. The effect is gone is I am 7 feet away and the drivers are turned in other side. Then the dynamics - it is a nightmare. I wonder what the people who comment positively about F120A ever heard that they commented positively about this driver. I do feel that only because the dynamic characteristics that the driver demonstrated so far it shall be absolutely disqualified from used. It is 87dB sensitive but it feels like it is 72dB sensitive… Usually to drive the speakers in this case with very powerful class A SS amp might help a bit (where is my Lamm M1.1) but with 10W of power handling and with my objective to have all time all playback it will not be a chance.

I do not know. These drivers need a lot of ignorance or a lot of imagination to call it “acceptable”.  It kind of even and smooth in a way, it has no good “absolute tone” even up to level of JBL5, but it looks like it  has no specific tonal preferences. I think that this Fi-Hi fairness was something that attracted people to Fostex F120A but it is too small in my coordinate system of judgment. Well, I would not say that the F120A annoys me – it does not and probably any other driver right off the box and in a random box would annoy me more.  Probably I need to give to F120A more time and see where it will be in a week, I need add to it bass channels, to high-pass F120A and see where it will lend.  My only hope that if I high-pass F120A high enough then it might pick up some dynamics. So, far I am not impressed, in fact disappointed.  The way I am playing it now it is the way in which all Fostex users use their drivers – a full-range only they also add a back loaded bass garbage disposal. Probably I need to learn from them now what kind of “single-driver institutionalized sound” they consider as a reasonable Sound….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-29-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 149
Post ID: 10120
Reply to: 10114
Fostex F120A – the fucking disaster!
fiogf49gjkf0d

I was running the F120A for a whole day and now I can’t stress more than I did it in the subject of this post this - driver is ultimate nightmare. In full range it was just too brutal to list it and it sounded sometimes like mechanically distorted. So, was crossing it at 100Hz, at 200Hz and at 400Hz. At 650Hz it looks like the auditable paper colorations got substantially subdued. I was trying to listen it – better but still it is possible to listen it only if to remember how much I paid for this crap. The driver, regardless of the price has truly bad sound due to not even a compression but some kind of effect of “Dynamics black whole”. The damn F120A plays all sound at the same dynamics level and I would say that in the same tonal color as I see absolute impotency in color contrasts. How the hell they do it? How the hell the people who use this driver claim that it is an acceptable driver? Is anybody would like to take this piece of shit from my hands? I will got o garbage can and to find the F120A boxes if not too late and to get rid of it. I afraid to keep it in my room as more listening of it and I will take a blowtorch and will vandalize this piece of the “audiophile glory”.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-29-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
floobydust


currently roaming the US
Posts 62
Joined on 01-19-2009

Post #: 150
Post ID: 10121
Reply to: 10120
What to make of it?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Hmmmm, not sure what to say in this case. From a higher view (and do correct me if I am wrong), you seem to have a general dislike for Fostex drivers. I can also sympathize that some of them are hard to listen to. In any case, you bought an expensive pair of Fostex (F120A) drivers, never listened to them, had them modified with, what could be considered a controversial technique. You then put them in a simple box without a back, drove them a (bad sounding) SS amp and spent a day with them. And you hate them. Well fair enough, your honest opinion.

 However, I don't think your pair fully resembles my (F120A) pair. A bit of history on this driver. At one point (about 2 years ago) it was rumored that Fostex had discontinued the F120A due to it's high cost and lower sales volumes (compared to the lower cost FE series). My pair was an older set from more than 2 years ago. Since that time, Madisound stock has run out at least twice. In both cases, additional quantities were ordered and Fostex had components still available and built the drivers to fill the order. The point being, that there now exists some unknowns in the F120A. The original ones were only made in Japan (not in China like most of them) and were considered as "Laboratory Series" (whatever that means). In any case, the quality of materials, machining (they actually have machined and die-cast parts, not basic stamped steel), fit and finish were far above the other cheaper Fostex drivers. For all we know, the new manufactured drivers could have been assembled by inexperienced staff, had material problems, etc.

 In any case, I can't agree with your assessment (compared to my drivers in 10 liter ported enclosures), but I can't really defend any of it as I've no idea what your pair sounds like. I would at least swap to better amplifier before binning them. I've only driven mine with SET amps.

 Regards, KM


... just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not after you ...
03-29-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 151
Post ID: 10122
Reply to: 10121
At this point I have very low expectations.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 floobydust wrote:
In any case, you bought an expensive pair of Fostex (F120A) drivers, never listened to them, had them modified with, what could be considered a controversial technique. You then put them in a simple box without a back, drove them a (bad sounding) SS amp and spent a day with them. And you hate them.
Well, I do not know if the disasters result that I got was due to the driver itself or do to the “controversial” treatment techniques, due to my amplification. In case of any other problems I might think about it but I have no idea how to deal with this super-compression. It is not even compression but some kind of strange sucking out of any contrasts from sound. I have no idea why it does what it does and how to deal with it.
 floobydust wrote:
In any case, I can't agree with your assessment (compared to my drivers in 10 liter ported enclosures), but I can't really defend any of it as I've no idea what your pair sounds like. I would at least swap to better amplifier before binning them. I've only driven mine with SET amps.
Well, it is a good point to try driving it with deferent amp but to use SET with 87dB sensitive drivers… I do not know. I will try but I have very low expectations.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-29-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 152
Post ID: 10123
Reply to: 10122
Impedance mismatch
fiogf49gjkf0d
Did you try adjusting the output impedance with the F120's? That may lead to some dullness in the sound.
Adrian
03-30-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 153
Post ID: 10135
Reply to: 10123
Fostex F120A – the end of the game.
fiogf49gjkf0d

It was yesterday around 4 PM – I viciously took it off and decided never use it again.  I was listening Brahms German Requiem with James Levine and BSO – a phenomenal performances in my view and one moment after being offended by each note the F120A played I sais the it was enough and I should not endure that horrible audio masochism anymore. I took the F120A out of the system and I know that it will not be neat to it anymore.

A few hours prior, I played with Fostex F120A, trying different operations. I have absolutely no idea why the F120A has such a good reputation as it has among the Fostex users. I sincerely feel that Fostex F120A is the absolutely the worst driver I even had in my room and it is not a poetic glorification of my hate to the F120A’s sound but just a fact.

I tried a few amps on F120A, the 100W SS, 2A3 and full-range Milq – I have identical sound in all 3 cases. In full range application the driver is just operating faulty. It has huge amount of distortion and alien sounds at bottom region that make it virtually unlistenable. Crossing it at $600-700 makes the alien sounds and crappy paper-cone inflection to go away. Still if I play it a bit louder then it comes back. That “newspaper sound” looks like completely goes way at ~85dB it I cross the driver at 1700-2000Hz. The driver does not look it might play louder than 85dB. From top end the F120A is kind of extended with the quality of HF being very poor. I took one of my “slow” silk dome tweeters (North Creek Music tweeters) and tried to add it to the F120A. Sliding the crossover up and doe I concluded that approximately at 5.500Hz I stopped to hear the F120A’s HF misery. So, 2000Hz to 5.500Hz – too much for a “full range driver”?

However – it was not the worst part. The worst part was that whatever even left in MF was absolutely not usable and it sounds at very much sub-acceptable level. Dynamically it is emblematic how a driver must not sound. The 75dB sensitive SL6000 of chippers Martin Logans sound like a thunder compare to F120A. The transient characteristics are not even present in F120A as it feels like sounds do not change in this driver. Whatever the driver reads sound like colors during a midnight in fox 0 it little have no dynamic or tonal discrimination. I do believe that the drivers are defective in some way as the crap like this shell not exist.

I can give you the very exact feeling how the F120A sounds. Pretend that you have a normal 8R driver properly loaded to your SET and you have OK sound. Now you take .2R resistor (it is zero point 2 Ohms) and sun the driver, making your SET to drive sub .2R. Did you note the dymick, tonal and expressive changes in the sound of your amp? Here it is – this is now the F120A sounds…

Anyhow, it was in the middle of the German Requiem when I took the dreaded F120A out of my room and switched sound back to my Hamster system. It was like a breast if fresh air after running a marathon in gasmask. OK, the Fostex, never again….

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-30-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 154
Post ID: 10143
Reply to: 10135
The Hamster speaker becomes the MiniMe?
fiogf49gjkf0d

Since my Fostex saga went deep South I was scratching my head wondering what  else I would like to do considering the I would like to do as less as possible. Well, talking about to do as less as possible – I like the sound of my shitty Hamster Speaker, in fact I like it so much that would be very glad if the MiniMe would sound like this.

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=9920

The shitty Hamster Speaker are incredibly peaceful and I looked at them more carefully. As the result, playing with Hamster more I absolutely accidently come up with surprisingly cool result it sound very-very nice in all configurations and it is kind of insulting and shameful as it have none of the original intentions of the MiniMe’s Montour. Of cause the MineMe bass section is here but the MF section is very different and very and very absurd.

It is approximately .7 cub feet box – I can’t measure it as it is odd shape. It is two ways. The MF channel is second order low pass, with open bottom. The driver is.. I have no idea what it is. It is 4R, 5” with plastic-fabric cone and a very odd suspension. From all my judgment it this it is some kind of syntactic leather. It has resonance around 90Hz I presume. The tweeter is the driver from Grand Utopia from 90s. I used 3th order filter on it and tweeter and woofer are in phase. The enclosure has port and 5” hole where I loaded the woofer from my bass channels. The woofer is not electicly connected and acts as passive radiator. The enclosure is light and has a lot of breathing. I measured nothing in it but it sounds very-very nice. It does not go low – I presume to 70-80Hz but it goes down very]-very clean with very interesting despairing bass effect. It is very dynamic with excellent transient and ability to play truly loud and very high discrimination to what it plays.  I still would like to make some changes with calming down the tweeter and improve the tweeter mounting but I like a LOT what it turning into.

Hamstered_MiniMe_FirstDraft.JPG

I am running the Hamster-derived Monitor with MiniMe bass channel, not even properly integrated as Hamsters do to ~90Hz and the MiniMe’s bass comes at 500Hz but even as is the sound is very respectable in direct radiation configuration.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-30-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 155
Post ID: 10144
Reply to: 10143
Take Two Aspirin
fiogf49gjkf0d
and call me in the morning.

So, the idea is simply to not get one's hopes up?

While I would certainly take most mid-fi over most hi-fi, I think you know the reasons for that.

Well, why not just run this into the ground, see who salutes?

Sure you don't want to give the little Supravox a shot?

Or maybe an Oops/monitor combo?

Or maybe just take a short breather...

Best regards,
Paul S
04-08-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 156
Post ID: 10188
Reply to: 10143
My new MiniMe, I think it's it.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Ok, I think it is it. I close the experimental phase of the MiniMe projects as I have selected and feel comfortable with MiniMe results. The MiniMe Bass section is the very original MiniMe enclosure with the very same drivers as I plane from start. The MiniMe Monitor section is completely different monitor: it is 2-way bass-reflexed with additional passive radiator, with Focal tweeter and no-name 5” leather-suspended MF/bass driver. The Monitor goes down to ~100Hz after which the bass section kick-in. at this point the design is fixed and even I need to make minor adjustments with bass section crossover point but it is about it. The image below indicates how the MiniMe is positioned in relation to Macondo. The phonograph is taken from my full height standing in from on Macondo. The MiniMe monitor  baffles are ~ 6-7” behind the Macondo MF mouthed and so far I did not detect that MiniMe screws up Macondo sound.

MiniMeDone.JPG

Some concussions: Project

Very impressed with Focal tweeter – very impressed. The tweeter sits at ~2500 kHz with third order. It is the same tweeter that Focal used in Grand Utopias in 90s and Wilson used in Grand Slamm MKII in 90s. It is textured titanium in foam suspension. I was truly take how dynamic and how neutral it is. I come to it accidently searching some crap in my storage – god I need more frequently to look there – perhaps I can find it there Lindbergh baby and Jimmy Hoffa… The project itself was a typical for me triumph of money throwing to the problem as a substitute for ignorance and disability to heir a proper help to render my tasks. The JBL MF driver did not work as it needed a LOT of work – I was too lazy to go there and along with good MF driver the perspective of use the RAAL tweeter is evaporated. Then I “trusted others” and went for Fostex – the $600 thrown to garbage can – I hope I found a moron what would take this crap out of my hands – those driver are not qualified even to rust in my storage. Well, perhaps if I keep my mouth shut about the Fostex then I will be able to sell it but the people with brains understand that if I sell anything then I hate it…

Some concussions: Sound

The greatest objective of the MiniMe was accomplished: the MiniMe has a similar to Macondo presentation in my room and has absolutely non-annoying sound. It is even surprising how non-annoying it is. Is sound of MiniMe something that I might consider good? Absolutely not! I would need to write a thousand words to criticize what in MiniMe sound might be improved but doing nothing good MiniMe does not do bad things. In a grand scale the MiniMe has NOT too impressive tone, has proper and surprisingly clean HF, unexpectedly dynamic and transiently very much not challenged. It has the typical for all of those monitors “small” sound and sound good only with crappie material. Any attempts to make the MiniMe able to play something more serious made the MiniMe to suffer from something that I named the “Joe Roberts Effect”. The “Joe Roberts Effect” is a situation when a piece of audio does shit, does not know about it and if asked to do something more objections-loaded then it does not know what even being asked. All my attempts to make MiniMe to play sound more seriously made the MiniMe do not even know what the hell I want from it – well it what it is and I let it be as is. Still, the MiniMe, while does what it does it does own duty not annoying… The greatest thing about MiniMe as far as I concern is that MiniMe clearly indicates when I need to shut down the little SS amp that drivers simplistic MiniMe and to turn up Melquiades, letting the full bloom of Macondo to take over.  The experience I get with the transformation of Sound while it happening is something that makes the MiniMe project well-justified.

Final concussion:

The MiniMe bass section, the thin, accurate G10 enclosure was a good idea.  It sits in Macondo upperbass bay and it feels like it was born there. The MiniMe monitor I should not build but  had to buy from someone. There is an army of small mini-monitors out there and considering the time and money I paid until I end up with my currant Monitor I could pick and afford anything I wish.  Now, when I have a cheap alternative to Milq/Macondo to listen non-live FM musical programs and the Prairie Home Companion- type programs in my room, the MiniMe paved the way to convert Melquiades MF channel to exotic DHT tube with restricted life span. I think with MiniMe I will be running Macondo 3-4 times less, so the DHT project is moving to the front burner…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-09-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
wchang
Posts 1
Joined on 04-09-2009

Post #: 157
Post ID: 10190
Reply to: 10135
F120A -- end of the game?
fiogf49gjkf0d
I got my pair of F120A by-the-book bookshelves a few weeks ago and yes, in the beginning they were very much "compressed" sounding.  Things improved a bit over time, but the low treble (which gives instruments their "color") is still recessed.  So I looked up the frequency response graph and lo-and-behold, a real dip at 1-2Khz.  On the other hand, I could not fault the midrange transcient response, for example a violin bow flashing across the strings, or a harpsichord run, sounded right.  I have for comparison a pair of cheap old eBay Monitor Audio Monitor 2.5 which are quite different.  Then, the following happened and I made a post to Audiogon Forums (below).  In any case, maybe you should send me your F120A to experiment with and if I can get them to "work", I'll either send you the result or the money :-)

I'm getting in the mail a "Jim Griffin" JX92S/G2Si kit and it would interesting to compare them, swap components etc.  -- William (williamichang@h**mail.com)

(http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1238482149&read&keyw&zzfostex)
Stacked Bookshelf Speakers -- Perplexing Nirvana? I lived in the Bay Area, CA, but for two years I have been working in Beijing (!) which turned out to be a home audio desert. Perhaps due to the high density of living, people generally only listened to music via earphones or in their cars. So over time I brought over assorted electronics and a pair of cheap old Monitor Audio Monitor 2.5 bookshelves. Recently I acquired locally a pair of so-called full-range single-driver Fostex F120A (alnico) 10-liter ported boxes and ended up stacking them on top of the Monitor 2.5 which are on the floor.

Well, the F120A frequency response is dome-shaped, and the old 2.5's frequency response is bowl-shaped. While muting one or the other by remote control to compare their sound, I discovered an almost perfect balance by playing them both at the same volume. The F120A's driven by Bel Canto S300iu give an extremely transparent, zero-time transcient "on-stage" sound, but short on highs and lows, while the 2.5's driven by a very nice 300B SET provide an extremely musical, acoustically rich experience, but quite lean in the midrange. By combining, I can dial-in the sound perspective and degree of involvement, but usually keep the two sources balanced.

I have owned Quad ESL63 driven by ARC D70II, Monitor Audio Studio 20 driven by Quad 909, Quad 12L Active Monitors, etc., but I think this bizarre setup may be the best and truest I have heard. Naturally, I'm perplexed and somewhat unhappy with the situation!

My next quest would be for something simpler or more "normal". Next month I will visit California and try the Focal Pro Twin 6 Be (active pro monitors) and old-school Morel/Renaissance Duet, both bookshelve speakers that I _might_ be able to lug back to Beijing. Other candidates are the Monitor Audio Gold Signature GS-LCR (used as stereo pair) and ELAC floorstanders. Unlike American-made audio which are exorbitant in China (if available at all), both ELAC and Monitor Audio are nicely discounted.

Trying the Fostex turned out to be a surprise educational experience -- a "serendipitous discovery" for me. I have to say, hearing Gilels playing Beethoven's Pathetique Sonata, especially the longs runs, is glorious and so luxurious. I am fortunate to have attended many solo, small ensemble, and vocal concerts and now, listening to recordings of these fine artists and performances really takes me back to the live experience.

The stacked bookshelf speakers cost less than $1K together. The electronics are in the $5K range combined.

Equipment: Quad 99CDP, Bel Canto S300iu, Pureaudio 300B SET (vintage German input 6DJ8, rest are current Chinese tubes), Audience AU24 interconnect, Canare 4S11 star-quad speakerwire.

Recordings used: Baltimore Consort "On the Banks of the Helicon"; Claude Bolling's Greatest Hits; Rachel Podger's Bach unaccompanied "Chaconne"; William Christie's Fischer solo harpsichord; Kathleen Battle and Christopher Parkening "Pleasures of Their Company"; Gilels' Beethoven. Etc.

-- William
04-09-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 158
Post ID: 10191
Reply to: 10190
I generally don’t like lobsters of how The Pussy was raped.
fiogf49gjkf0d
William,

I do not know what to say. Russians have a proverb that says: in fishless word even a crab is considered a fish. You might appreciate your experience with F120A, I do not, furthermore I cannot stress how much I was not pleased with this driver. It might be different reference points or different expectation or whatever. Frankly I do not look forward to learn what was wrong with my driver (if anything) or make any other accommodation to “work” with this driver to make it to do what others appreciate in it. From my attitude above you might have concluded that I have declared the other as “clueless” and moved alone. The result it the F120A showed was so much off any acceptable level that the only thing I look forward now is to get this drivers out of my home and memorize the experience that I had with the F120A as nothing else besides as it was an audio day rape.

I have a few ideas where the F120A’s misery might come from but honesty it is not stimulating for me to write about it. If you wish then I might offers to your to invest into F120A research some of your time. I think you have discovered my F120A comment by Goggling F120A and therefore your were exposed only to my F120A feedback. I am OK with your disagreement with my opinion but my views are a product of evolution and framework of requirements rather than just atomic spontaneous “review” of independent audio element. I do not think you are familiar with me and I do not think you read much more at this site then those extremely negative comments about F120A. I do appreciate your attempt to rectify our judgments about the driver and therefore I propose, if you care, you to do some further observing of where I am coming from. My site has a phenomenal material for bathroom readings, so spend some time and see what is the lay of the land is.  I might share my thoughts where I think the F120A misery come from but to do so it makes sense only if the people acknowledge the driver problems, otherwise – the process has no mutual educational value….

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-12-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 159
Post ID: 10504
Reply to: 10188
The MiniMe doing surprisingly good.
fiogf49gjkf0d
While the left channel of Macondo is out full-time service (while I am redoing my left Milq’s MF channel) I have been listening MiniMe for weeks. The MiniMe is in the stage how I let if a couple month back: I did not fine-tune the port and used in crossover crappy electrolytic caps, I did not even measured it since I put the Focal tweeter in us. Still, whatever it is doe it turned out to be very pleasant acoustic system. It is not that it is perfect but it is remarkably non-annoying and it absolutely painlessly blends itself inside Macondo, not to mention that is driven from the same sources as the rest of my playback. Indeed I am very joyful with the result, surprisingly happy result.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-13-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Lbjefferies7
Southern California
Posts 49
Joined on 01-11-2008

Post #: 160
Post ID: 10506
Reply to: 10504
Joyfull?
fiogf49gjkf0d

Well all right then...

I've been wondering if the Mini LF sections had been having effects on Macondo's LF channels by introducing some sympatheic resonances.  If you left the ports at just the 2" diameter by .5" in length, then the tuning would be roughly 95 Hz so Macondo LF would be 6 dB or so down by that point.  Perhaps it's nothing, but it seems unavoidable to me that they are not "ringing."

I have that "problem" with a piano in my place.  When I stop the music, I always hear a soft little harmonic reply from a damper-less Knabe.  Despite what most (all?) would guess, it's really not a problem and something that I am quite comfortable with.  I suspect that I would be unlikely to tolerate any of this kind of resonance at LF though....far to reminiscent of the Tacoma-Narrows Bridge.

LBJ




I'm not interested in having an orchestra sound like itself. I want it to sound like the composer. Leonard Bernstein
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