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  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  686910  07-29-2007
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  »  New  Bermuda Triangles of Audio..  Tannoy carton issues...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  13159  11-09-2021
11-07-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 61
Post ID: 26494
Reply to: 26493
Ok, the concept is proven.
The Remy with external mount sound juts fine...
RemediosWithProtoBoards.jpg


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-07-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,672
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 62
Post ID: 26495
Reply to: 26493
Waxing Philosophical
Yes, Sakuma seemed to enjoy delivering some It via "old methods". But he was able to do it not because he used the old methods but because he could use his ears to home in on It. For many years I used Fulton speakers, and Bob Fulton was another one who constructed and hawked all kinds of "special" components that were not special in terms of parts quality, much of which was second or third tier (or worse...), but because he had good communication from his very attuned ears to the development process part of his brain. Too bad for buyers, his mind was very active, and he was always changing things.

The old Tannoys were very much "tuned to their cabinets", which were not sealed. No need to stick with this practice, I suppose, but that is how their tone was brought across.

Paul S
11-07-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 63
Post ID: 26496
Reply to: 26494
This is exactly what I do not need right now in my life..
I set up Remy with temporary plates and all the rest was absolutely identical to Dannoys. I do not have the sounds that I had from Dannoys. It is generally good but I really taken back by compression. Dannoys had no compressions that I felt and this guy's sounds like a typical 90db sensitive loudspeaker. I am talking about just Tannoy Red, I do not use bass section.  This is certainly not the sound is that I'm willing to give up Macondo.

I wonder what is the difference and what is the secret. The Remedies we're slightly smaller, 1" MDF, having staffed with mid-density form. The Remedios, are basted 1" birch, staffed with synthetic wrapper and still have those stupid bevel pipes behind the drivers. Is it possible that old baffle of Remedios give this compression? I really do not want to screw up with the shape of the cabinets and the rest of the things where I have no control or no knowledge. Why I cannot be nice and beautiful immediately as is as it was with Dannoys?

Remy_Compression.jpg



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-07-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,672
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 64
Post ID: 26497
Reply to: 26496
Diviating From "Successful Formula"
I hear you, Romy, too many other things going on to do this full time, like "the old days". To save time and effort, you could try to "repeat" the original Dannoy configuration (same gear and location) and hear if it is "repeatable". If not, you're done. If yes, either use it as-is or do your level best to replicate it without overlaying all your new ideas about appearances, etc. I assure you, the old paper drivers are effing sensitive to their "environment". It MIGHT be that you can make a "better" cabinet, but I know the old Tannoy speakers did not worry about "rigidity", etc., compared to Wilson, etc. Also, my experience with the "vintage" tone is that you can't push it, so you either settle for lower dB or high pass the Red at, say 200 Hz, maybe higher, to get some headroom. Less work = more/better tone.

Good luck!


Paul S
11-07-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 65
Post ID: 26498
Reply to: 26496
Holy shit!!! I hope it was not it....
I'm kind of wondering what is going on. The sound I'm getting now from Remedios is truly nothing special, it is very rich for a typical sound of 10" red driver. I might play with baffle, perhaps I will be able to get compression under control, even I have no idea why but I rather wonder about large picture. The sound overall is not even remotely when it's used to be which make me to think in one interesting direction. Is it possible that when I have Dannoy in here and particularly those few days which were so spectacular that made me to disassemble Macondo, the Dannoys, just accidentally, found themselves at DPoLS position, or near it? I never did any special positions with Dannoys I just played them whatever they happen to be. It would be very ugly story of the success of Dannoys and SIT was not truly the success of equipment but the benefits of accidental DPoLS from any acoustic system. I still will take any playback in DPoLS against anything, including Macondo. I don't have answer now and I wonder if it was DPoLS then how much effort should I waste with my baffles, compressions and all the rest crap. Honestly I hope it was not DPoLS as going for small and manageable speakers one of my primary objective was to go eventually for DPoLS....

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-08-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 66
Post ID: 26499
Reply to: 26498
Surround?
Were Dannoys played in the surround mode?


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
11-08-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 67
Post ID: 26500
Reply to: 26499
Pleeeeeeese....
Pleeeeeeese, do not call what I was doing with reverberation injection as “surround”. I hate the notion of “surround” and Bill and I constantly have arguments about it. What I do has nothing to do with surrounding a listener with sound but rather extending a reverberation time, very different. Answering you question. I do not use any reverberations building Dannoy or Remy. The Rev injection is a frosting on the cake and if the cake is made from poop then there is no difference how much sugar you put in the frosting.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-08-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 68
Post ID: 26501
Reply to: 26500
Got it
Ok, got it. I second Paul's experience that trying to retrace own footsteps is the best strategy in such cases. Esp. that Dannoys + B3 didn't perform at Bill's place.


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
11-08-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 69
Post ID: 26502
Reply to: 26498
Secret volume changers
IF the Remedios cabinets have more volume than the Dunnoy, you just put bricks inside Remedios until you have the same volume. I assume that EVERY Tannoy Red will have a different resonance frequency. They are old and have certainly not been played the same way. You had some frequency response curves from the Dunnoy. What does Remedios look like? A passive radiator gives me heartburn - especially IF there is a Midbass channel below it.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
11-08-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 70
Post ID: 26503
Reply to: 26502
Keep pushing....
Oh, rowuk, you have no idea how much I agree. To me passive theaters very much like ports and I hated anything which stay even remotely close to it. However, this time the entire Remedios project is is very different s s is built not based upon knowledge, experience or anything this sort but it built kind of empirically intuitively. I have very little knowledge about box speakers and the whole project is rely upon an accidently discovered fact that I happened to be like to loaded Red into a passive radiator. No bass driver, no subwoofer, no huge infinite baffle, it was just plain vanilla SIT amplification  driving red's reinforced by passive scanspeak. It was not just astonishingly good but it was good enough for me to disassemble my playback that I was building for 20 years. If it does not mean to put your action behind own then I do not know what would. 
Interestingly, that many what do doesn't makes sense to me. What's the point, for instance to have passive radiator if I high pass the Tannoy woofer one octave above the resonance frequency? I can give you a dozen examples that absolutely does not make sense to me but somehow I have a feeling that it real works as the sounds that I get with zero efforts running full range default red was superbly promising.

It is interesting that you mentioned that midbass direct radiator channel under the passive radiator. So far I'm not able to integrated it in the way how I want. Furthermore entire red assembly and this point doesn't sound good in my room, the Dynamics, tonal vigor and standing delicacy I used to have with Dannoy are gone. I'm slowly to fighting, trying to bring it back. As much as I most of the time is this project have no idea why I'm doing what I'm doing there are some reasonable questions which require knowledge that I do not have. For instance I'm planning to do a reverse horn into the box. Is this ridiculous and overly expensive 6" I can actually write a curve from back plate of the driver inside the box? How would it reflect upon compression? What would it be different if it would be random age between buflle and box? I have no idea how it will work and for whatever reason in this stage of my audio development I just would like to have the it is all that I won and I have less concerned why this happened and what kind theory it should be relevant.  I am sick and tired too support rules, sick and tired to defy rules I just want to make the sond to reach my inerme will be reacted by the way I want and I care less about anything else.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-09-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rogier
Posts 13
Joined on 11-16-2006
Post #: 71
Post ID: 26506
Reply to: 26498
Eating frequencies..
Romy, apart from surround etc. , the gaping holes of your bass-cabinets might eat some important frequency-range from your audio...
11-09-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 72
Post ID: 26508
Reply to: 26506
Static dynamic vs dynamic dynamics
Thanks, but it is kind of different. The dynamics that I lost have a different by nature. There are many reasons why I lost static dynamics. I have a gasket between the new plates and old baffle, I have many other problems that is shortcut in this prototype, the not well sealed enclosure is many of them. All of it dive what I call static dynamic lost. I can improve all of it but my concern that I lost different dynamic. I had Bill yesterday and he was listening that I have now, and I think he got the idea in slightly different perspective. He did notice of cause that I lost dynamic, but he was paid attention only to static dynamics. One of the keys of my sound always was “dynamic dynamics”.  If we have some kind typically compressed recording (all of them are) then the playback that I have had an ability to decompress sound. Typically, ”out there” it is done by shortening  notes decay and in a way expediting sound ( underload OPT, OTL …etc..) I absolutely reject this approach and Macondo/Milq with it in very different way. There was no harmonic hurtle in a way how my playback decompress sound. It is not only amp and speakers do it. Many my ingratiation do it. The TLO, the Dominus, SU2 transformer, DSET, S2 drivers. It is something the scratch microscopic dynamic out of relatively flat and compressed notes without change harmonic context of notes. For sure the static dynamic might impact the dynamic dynamics, but they are different, and I know how to hear one vs another. So, what I am saying that for whatever reasons my playback lost dynamic dynamics, I use to have it with the same speakers and amps to threw more “events” within “dynamic garishness”. I do not know where it come from and I have high confidence that it does not related to compromised static dynamics of my Remy

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-09-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 117
Joined on 03-15-2010
Post #: 73
Post ID: 26509
Reply to: 26508
Dynamic dynamics
While I have heard the terms static dynamics, micro and macro dynamics, I have never heard of dynamic dynamics. Are you referring to the term “changing dynamics”, which means a volume change, either gradual or instantaneous. What was missing yesterday was both micro and macro dynamics, but especially the “jump factor” he had previously with both his horns, and Dannoy's.I agree with Romy that I didn't hear the dynamics or the gorgeous tonality we had with his Dannoy’s yesterday. I believe this had three reasons. 1. His boxes are bigger than the Dannoy's and they had very little foam inside. 2. With the rubber gasket he has between the driver plenum an cabinet, it would be like playing a violin with its mute piece In place. 3. The back wall of the cabinet was attached by only one screw which should decrease dynamics. The Dannoy’s cabinets are 3 cubit feet in volume whic is what Tannoy recommends with their 10 inch red builds, are solid as a rock and have a huge amount of solid foam stuffing.I am sure once Romy gets in his foam, reshapes the speaker opening, seals the cabinets properly, and possibly decreases the cabinet's volume, he'll get the sound he is striving for. Why do i know this? Because I have come close last night after working on the speakers for five hours yesterday after our session at Romy's. I had been working on them for four weeks with execrable sound, until Romy came over last week and showed me the error of my ways. After replacing my digital Behringer crossovers, then, with the original Tannoy's, and yesterday removing the rubber surround between the driver and cabinet, both at his suggestion, then adjusting their frequency response to +/- 1 dB with my Trinnov altitude processor, the sound obtained last night came much closer to what we experienced in his room with the same speakers, but far superior equipment. It has gotten to the point where it is superior to what I was obtaining with my Edgar Horns, making me confident that I’ll not go back. I only hope that Romy obtains his sound epiphany again so he won,t want the Dannoy's back.Bill
11-09-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 74
Post ID: 26510
Reply to: 26509
I keep looking into it.
Bill, I disagree with you. I agree with all your assessments but I disagree with the reasons. All of the factors you mentioned I did wrong would not affect dynamic Dynamics but would affect only static Dynamics. I agree that both of them were compromised but no change volume of the box or mistakes of mounting should affect dynamic Dynamics and they mostly come from electric relationship between amplification and drivers. You remember I played to you opening from Bruckner 7 Adagio and it was not an opening of cellos, violas and Wagner tubas but it was some kind of gray homogeneous noise, so my playback did not shred it to individual voices and then combine it via acoustic presentation. I headed in my room when I had Dannoy here and I don't have it now. It is not the property of enclosure. It is how I envision it. Something is certainly wrong and I cannot figure out what it is...

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-09-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014
Post #: 75
Post ID: 26511
Reply to: 26510
These are the days of our lives
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Dynamics and they mostly come from electric relationship between amplification and drivers.


I would certainly add to that the relationship between the driver and the enclosure.  I know I am on the other side of the world and have not heard what you and Bill have heard, but I like to think about "dynamics dynamics", as I envisage your notion, in terms of "tuning".  An untuned box has all kinds of stuff going on that can make the output muddy, congested and compressed, and like tuning a guitar string the output will get better cleaner and better when that other stuff is dealt with, including how the drivers are mounted to the enclosure.  

Back when I was doing my Bass Cannons I played around a lot with stuffing, mainly to attenuate the large reflection off the rear wall of the tubes.  I must have tried and measured more than two dozen different stuffing arrangments and foam types and although this is only the lower bass channel the sound changed significantly with each of them.  I heard all different kinds of muddy, one-note and congested to finally soft and textured. 


 Romy the Cat wrote:
You remember I played to you opening from Bruckner 7 Adagio and it was not an opening of cellos, violas and Wagner tubas but it was some kind of gray homogeneous noise, so my playback did not shred it to individual voices and then combine it via acoustic presentation. I headed in my room when I had Dannoy here and I don't have it now. It is not the property of enclosure.


That so sounds like a box problem to me, especially if listening at higher volumes.


Other than that, it is nice to see the two steps forward, one step back thing happening with the Remedies project.  I can't help at times but think that I am watching a daytime soap opera as everything plays out here and am enjoying the 'warts and all' process thus far.  Can't say I've ever followed anything quite like it in audio.  I have all the drivers here, who knows, if this project come to a head I may give it a go for downstairs.
11-09-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 76
Post ID: 26512
Reply to: 26509
Congratulations Bill!
Are you using the ScanSpeak pair of the original Dunlavy tower for the midbass or something else? Can you pls give the outer dimensions of the towers to have some image?


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
11-09-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 77
Post ID: 26513
Reply to: 26511
Again, disagree.
 anthony wrote:
I would certainly add to that the relationship between the driver and the enclosure.  I know I am on the other side of the world and have not heard what you and Bill have heard, but I like to think about "dynamics dynamics", as I envisage your notion, in terms of "tuning".  An untuned box has all kinds of stuff going on that can make the output muddy, congested and compressed, and like tuning a guitar string the output will get better cleaner and better when that other stuff is dealt with, including how the drivers are mounted to the enclosure.  

That so sounds like a box problem to me, especially if listening at higher volumes.

Again, I degree. The box problems are static by nature and have permeant harmonic structure. The problem I see now do not have permeant harmonic structure, in contrary the damage happens wide band, literally full range. No box would do it. I do not need to claim that the I have some listening intelligence, but I do and I perfectly can tune my perception from the know and understood problems in context of targeted listening. I clearly know the problems I have now, and I can clearly hear the problem with the sound in respect to what I understand. The problem I am reporting now is not from boxes and do not know where they are from. There are many evidences of it and one of the biggest is multi-applicability of the problem. It is not that I lost only Dynamic Dynamics but I lost many other things. Like send of wonder and senses of expressionistic magic. What Dannoy was in better shape it produces sounds that were mostly betters then I anticipated. It was filled with some fandom, almost spooky sounds in the music and the performances that I know very well. It was kind of rocking my perception in almost teasing on it. It was absolutely different experience, and it was not accident that I ditched Macondo/Milq. It was also not an accident that I brought other people in my home to witness it as I want them acetate that I was not crazy. Anyhow, I do not have now any of it and that is not coming from box problem but with very active energizing forces, not static.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-09-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 78
Post ID: 26515
Reply to: 26513
Do I want to be Bermuda Triangle manager?
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=26514#26514

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-10-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 117
Joined on 03-15-2010
Post #: 79
Post ID: 26517
Reply to: 26512
Dannoy
These are Romy's original boxes and scanspeak used as passive radiator. I have purchased 10 inch tannoy reds with their crossovers to replace Romy's which I have given back to him. My Trinnov is doing a 24 dB Linkowitz Reilly crossover at 80 Hz. To my JL Audio f113 II subwoofers.The box walls are 1 plus inch thick with heavy duty 2 inch foam padding covering about 50 % of the volume.Outside Dimensions 12 wide x 19 inches long x 32 inches high giving about  3 cubic feet volume.
11-10-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 80
Post ID: 26518
Reply to: 26517
I would hold...
Guys, outside Bill, who personally witness how it sounded and cannot blame me. It is certainly none of my business what you do but if you would like to experiment with the same directions as Bill and I am doing now Then I very much would encourage you to stay out of it for now. I agree that this project have very attractive entry point, you need looks like just two product and very minor amount of DIY efforts. Still remind you that I am as “inventor” hence this point cannot replicate the results that I have few weeks ago. we clearly do not know in this point what was the secret. I'd tell you more I do not particularly care about the secret, but I would like to be able to reinstate my Bermuda Triangle effect, even without knowing what cause it. Bill claims a positive result and if it is correct then there the to do SIT amplification has role to play. From different perspective at the time when I have good result, I was not able to get it with another amplification but SIT. Then what is definition of good? I do not run it's to be just another excellent sound. I had it for years and it is not enough for me. I want that Bermuda Triangle sound, I want that unidentifiable magic, that sonic subconscious fucking with my mind. I have right now exactly the same configuration that I used to have before (minus enclosure) and I do not only black ink now magic in my presentation, but I have even no good sound, hugely compressed. So, if you would like to get Reds, passive radiators and begin to experiment with this then you will be getting recommendations how to lend an aircraft from a blind person. So, if somebody willing to replicate what I discuss then there is nothing to replicate yet. if somebody is willing to experiment in this direction then wait until Bill and I will be ended up with something more and less conclusive. Bill, kind of got hooked on it as he personally heard the result. I have another person who was in my room months ago hurts their result and he actually bought is there components as well but he not willing to play with it until I am finished and he witnessed a good result in my home. I am literally scratching my head now and have no idea what is going on as I reject your proposals that enclosure matters. it is certainly matters for sound but not for many other things that I give priority .

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  686910  07-29-2007
  »  New  Dannoy 2021 Loudspeakers..  It is all bout me....  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     24  36389  08-04-2021
  »  New  Bermuda Triangles of Audio..  Tannoy carton issues...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  13159  11-09-2021
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