-Electro Voice EVM15L woofer, 8ohms, 80Hz horn, 1.5mH coil
-Vitavox S2 midrange, 15ohms, 350Hz horn, 5uf cap, 2.5dB L-pad
-Fane ST5022 bullet tweeter, 8 ohms, 1 uf cap, 2.8dB L-pad
-There is also a subwoofer that rolls in beginning ~70Hz using an active 4th order low-pass filter and 5-6dB bass boost ~30Hz

I want to "optimize" this crossover network to extract the best these drivers have to offer, and remove components where it will do no harm:

- Remove L-pads from mid and tweeter (sounds a little brighter, yet "more pure" and "better" to my ears)
- Remove the 1.5mH coil from the woofer.  Again, sounds clearer w/o the coil to me.  Any adverse impedance matching issues?
- Add a 80Hz 1st order high-pass filter before the amps. The Welbornes have 100k input Z, preamp has 130ohm output Z. Install a .02uf cap at the amp inputs or pre outs.
- Use the S2 lower ~1100Hz replacing 5uf cap with 10uf cap
- Still working with the Fane, but want to experiment with other tweeters like Fostex, Raven or EV T350 (never heard these but interested enough to listen).

Does this sound like a good idea?

Thanks much.
scott

Scott,

skushino wrote:

- Remove L-pads from mid and tweeter (sounds a little brighter, yet "more pure" and "better" to my ears)

skushino wrote:

- - Remove the 1.5mH coil from the woofer.  Again, sounds clearer w/o the coil to me.  Any adverse impedance matching issues?

skushino wrote:

- - - Add a 80Hz 1st order high-pass filter before the amps. The Welbornes have 100k input Z, preamp has 130ohm output Z. Install a .02uf cap at the amp inputs or pre outs.

skushino wrote:

- - - - Use the S2 lower ~1100Hz replacing 5uf cap with 10uf cap

skushino wrote:

- - - - -Fane ST5022 bullet tweeter, 8 ohms, 1 uf cap, 2.8dB L-pad

Rgs,
The caT

Romy the Cat wrote:

Get RTA and set the band-pass of acoustic pressure form the channel identical.

Romy the Cat wrote:

This coil is low pass filter over 1K and it has nothing to do with “impedance matching”.

Romy the Cat wrote:

If your horn has 80Hz flare rates (or least what Bruce states) then 80Hz order high-pass it too high. I would start form ~40Hz to unload the LF form it. However, I would be questioning if it really were necessary. First of all this horn has back chamber that changes the rules of the game and marks the horn less sensitive to the overload the flare with LF.  Second, Bruce used the fairly low Fs driver in there with large trout that makes them to act at lowest cut off as the direct radiators…. I very much doubt the it would be necessary.

Romy the Cat wrote:

skushino wrote: - - - - Use the S2 lower ~1100Hz replacing 5uf cap with 10uf cap Are you saying that S2 has not as good lower mid range than heavy and dirty EVM15L? Well, I disagree and at my taste you cut S2 too abrupt. Not to mention that you have it sitting in the 330hx horn…

skushino wrote:

- - - - -Fane ST5022 bullet tweeter, 8 ohms, 1 uf cap, 2.8dB L-pad

Somehow I massacered the formatting of the last reply. 

The past days I was listening to the speakers in every imaginable configuration.  Sometimes I based my changes on "accepted theory" of crossovers and math, other times I just made changes in component values to gain a feeling of how I can affect the sound.

The version I always came back to, and am listening to now, is bare bones: nothing on the upper bass, 5uf cap on the mid range, 1uf cap on the tweeter, and 4th order low-pass on the sub. 

Yes, it is too bright.  But not unlistenable.  It's kind of like moving up 15 rows at the symphony.  More importantly, there's a "cleanness" to the sound.  It is pure and uncorrupted and more free.  I like it. 

So, the challange seems to be balancing the result, while minimizing the pollution from the components.

Romy, I'll limit my answer to only speaker-related problems. 

1) Still too bright sound.  Not hard or edgy, just too much top end.  My local guy suggested trying a single resistor in series, rather than an L-pad, to tone down the tweeter.

2) Mid-band presence ~1k - 1500Hz.  The upper bass mass roll-off is around 850Hz, and the mid driver is x-overed ~2100Hz, so on some music it sounds like some energy (presence) is missing in this range.  Removing the coil from the woofer helps, as it should.  Fixing the S2 and running it down to ~800 should help, too.

3) Sub integration.  Still a moving target.  Trying to balance too much overlap between subs and main, and control quality of bass.  I'm seeking toneful, colorful and balanced bass, that sounds big and round, consistent throughout my room.

4) Acoustic space.  Recreating a sense of place and scale for individual instruments and musical notes.  Specifically, layers and layers of depth, and the number and concentration of musicians.  The side to side lateral space is not a big challenge, but getting the other parts right is more interesting.

On the first two, I have some clear ideas to make progress, and am confident that over time they will be solved.  The second two are a bigger challenge for me.  I believe the solution will take much longer (probably months at least), and only become known after much positioning and repositioning of the speakers and sub.

Too bad we aren't neighbors.  I would invite you and your RTA over for some sushi and music.  In the meantime, I'm figuring things out on my own, one day at a time.

Best,
Scott

Scott, you see, this is the problem. You do not talk about the problems “as is”. All what I was asking was the acknowledgment/recognition/identification without context of loudspeakers. Your listening/assessment awareness is completely grounded to the porpoises and the means of reproduction. The practice of listening the loudspeakers  (or any other element) is the very first thing that should be discarded as with this practice any attempts to build a proper music reproduction system are condemned to fail.

skushino wrote:

1) Still too bright sound.  Not hard or edgy, just too much top end.  My local guy suggested trying a single resistor in series, rather than an L-pad, to tone down the tweeter.

Forget about the tweeter. You should make the system sound properly without the tweeter. Do not use it until the system sound perfectly acceptable.

skushino wrote:

2) Mid-band presence ~1k - 1500Hz.  The upper bass mass roll-off is around 850Hz, and the mid driver is x-overed ~2100Hz, so on some music it sounds like some energy (presence) is missing in this range.  Removing the coil from the woofer helps, as it should.  Fixing the S2 and running it down to ~800 should help, too.

You have to clearly undusted that without the actual RTA measurements what you say and what calculations indicate are juts shaking air and have no purpose. Why, when you bring 1/12dB RTA along with a phase tester and run some sweeps you will see why. So, sorry, I will not be commenting on it … and I would suggest do not waste your time and do not even to think about it until you have an objective tools to control what you do.

skushino wrote:

3) Sub integration.  Still a moving target.  Trying to balance too much overlap between subs and main, and control quality of bass.  I'm seeking toneful, colorful and balanced bass, that sounds big and round, consistent throughout my room

The same as above.

Anyhow, while you are straggling with Bruce foolish advice do not use analyzer “because it creates problems” I would suggest you stop visiting the “full of wisdom internet sites” and go for a rehearsal of your local Chorus Society. You might discover much more about speakers in there then during a conversation with Mike Lavigne-like idiots and perhaps you might develop some vocabulary that your help you to identify for yourself the problems with Sound instand the problems with a playback.

Rgs,
The Cat

Romy the Cat wrote:

Ok, can you in subjective trims describe what do you feel is wrong with your sound. disregard the speakers and channels, tell juts your pure reaction to what it is. The cat

skushino wrote:

Romy, I now see you were asking a totally different question.

The Cat