| Search | Login/Register
   Home » Melquiades Amplifier » Single-stage Melquiades vs. DHT amps (398 posts, 19 pages)
  Print Thread | 1st Post |  
Page 13 of 20 (398 items) Select Pages:  « First ... « 11 12 13 14 15 » ... Last »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  DHT driver & input..  Effects of radiation...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     25  249323  02-01-2007
  »  New  The one-stage Melquiades...  It's time, what amorphous opt...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     74  688617  04-21-2007
  »  New  The single-stage Milq and power Supplies...  Just the tank...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     10  100760  05-03-2007
  »  New  The 6E5P tube data...  Bartola Valves: 6e5p beam tetrode SPICE model...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     44  494136  07-23-2007
  »  New  6 Channel Version of Super Melquiades..  The first Milq screw up....  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     131  1260350  08-08-2007
  »  New  My (Amplification + Acoustic System): what is next?..  Macondo and Melquiades in the NEW room....  Audio Discussions  Forum     41  317096  01-10-2008
  »  New  Incorporating active crossovers into DSET..  Thanks...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     2  46360  07-22-2008
  »  New  About the life-expectancy of the new production tubes...  Stressing the damn contemporary tubes....  Audio Discussions  Forum     9  94085  12-29-2008
  »  New  Small SET’s bass, besides everything- is it about power..  Importance of OPT and type of tube for SET amp bass per...  Audio Discussions  Forum     4  86099  01-12-2009
  »  New  Macondo: new horizons. A few thoughts in context Zander..  What does make a playback to stop?...  Playback Listening  Forum     9  76424  02-02-2009
  »  New  The period DHT tubes and Swastika..  Maybe there is another solution...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     1  28968  04-30-2009
  »  New  Some thoughts about Milq’s MF filter..  High-Pass RL Filter calculator....  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     2  35181  05-02-2009
  »  New  The DHOFT topology? Do not try it home...  A medley of slow-cooked triodes....  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     3  48995  05-04-2009
  »  New  Why the tubes shall be the same?..  Not optional anymore?...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     7  65454  05-11-2009
  »  New  Valve Technology Timeline..  A good video about tubes making....  Audio Discussions  Forum     5  97893  06-18-2006
  »  New  The DSET perspective examines the Herb Reichert article..  Are you still in Reutlingen, Germany?...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     5  97976  07-01-2009
  »  New  About the Critical Audio Tune ™..  “Critical Audio Tune” bay-leave in the soup......  Playback Listening  Forum     5  53517  08-29-2009
  »  New  A full-range quality-triode? Does Size mater?..  A full-range quality-triode? Does Size mater?...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     0  17936  12-02-2009
  »  New  About Stupid Dynamic..  Misplaced dynamics....  Playback Listening  Forum     1  22117  08-21-2011
04-22-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 241
Post ID: 10303
Reply to: 10302
I do not think that it might be damaging…
fiogf49gjkf0d
CV,

Good scenario as well but my leading idea is slightly different.  I would like to keep any reactance from the path, would it be inductive of capacitive, to assure ultra fast response time. Basically I would like to maintain the MF amp as it used to be – a single stage. There was a guy in the beginning of this thread that crawled to this site from underskirt of that always lying Oswald Mill whore, and he advocated the concept that an amp needs to be with multiple stages, unitizing a multitude of ways to shape and Sound in order to cook the thick broth of desirable Sound.  I have seen him and other expressed the same view before but I do not think I support this view. I do not know of that guy practice DSET concept but if he did then I think he would realize that for FH channels the cleanness, ultra fast transients and “natural” speed of signal is very beneficial.  I did hear some direct-couple amps where I like the cleanness of MF very much. They had other problem but the MF was very much as I would like to. I do like the cleanness of my single stage amp – it VERY clean, I just need more power to convert it to less loading.

I do not claim that some very vintage DHT direct-coupled with my driver will do what I would like, I just do not know. However, the idea of having as less as possible reactive elements in signal path is sounds as the BS that I would subscribe intellectually (for limited bans of DSET), let just see if it turn out to be effective in the live of real Sound.

Since a guy I know, proposed a very good scenario how to kill the gain at input in the filter (by taking signal out from the taped choke) I tried to DC-couple my stages. I was not successful.  There are many DC-coupled ideas out there and the amps are very simple.  There is a book by Jack Robin and Chester Lipman from 1947 that suggests one of the versions.

Direct_Coupled_SET.JPG

I was adapting it for my driver and… burned 2 test 2A3 tubes.  Then I asked a friend of mine to help me with calculation of my DC-coupled amp.  So he did, proposing some of his own advancements. I have the circuit already and will be experimenting with it sometimes later on this week. It looks very clear and elegant, though I have no idea how it will sound. The amp is very basic with cathode bases 6E5P. I have no prejudices against this cathode as it is not bypassed – so there I no cap. The unbypassed driver has a half of gain that serves a lot of benefits in my case. The circuit has some “kinks”, that is why I do not post it. The friend of mine plays in industry and I am not sure if he would like me to publicize his ideas. Still, it is very simple and very concise – very far from elaborate pile up of stages. It is pretty what I had before but with no Innerstage transformer – I do not think that it might be damaging…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-22-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,672
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 242
Post ID: 10311
Reply to: 10303
Again with the PS
fiogf49gjkf0d
But you aren't using the tube rectifier, are you?!?

It will be interesting to see how you isolate your collective PS (and the other stages) from the DC circuit, and vice-versa.

Best,
Paul S
04-24-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 243
Post ID: 10342
Reply to: 10311
AKA J.C. Morrison’s amp but…
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
But you aren't using the tube rectifier, are you?!?
Nope I do not.  I cancel the contribution to sound from rectifiers and “sonic quality” of chokes by using substantial value of blocking cap that does not allow AC to go back to PS. If you see the similar amps, like J.C. Morrison Micro 3.5, Fi, DC-Darling and few other then you will see what I mean. My DC amp will have some provision how the large value of the cap will not make the sound “harder”, I used those tech in my single stage amp, take a look. I will be a few other differences from J.C. Morrison idea, like “limitation” of power tube cathode bypass… 

J.C. Morrison Micro.jpg

THe Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-24-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,672
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 244
Post ID: 10343
Reply to: 10342
Parallel Universe
fiogf49gjkf0d
OK, I think I get it, except you will have a sand bridge along with your crap-load of Farads guarding ground, and your PS out feeds all six "channels", including the DC MF without dividers?

Does this example mean you have decided to parallel your driver, too?

And by "limitation" (of cathode), do you mean with respect to frequency range, compared to the example?

That course would appear to take square aim at minimizing turns ratio of OPT...

Best regards,

Paul S
04-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 245
Post ID: 10354
Reply to: 10264
Melquiades HD MF DSET, Draft13.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Ok, here is what I end up with. This version is something that I am planning to give some listening, the fist listening as I this filtered down the intellectuals reasons do not listen it. The amp is fully operational, bit made as a test amp inside the 6Ch-Milq. To finish it would require juts to use better wires and a few better parts… The biggest question I have now is to kill my 6-8dB in crossover on the grid of the driver stage (my VERT much leading idea), to separate driver anode load and  to drop a cap between  the loading and dropping resistors to ground, or to use another lower gain tube.  Anyhow,  let see how this sucker will sound. 

Melquiades_YO-186_Draft13.jpg


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,672
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 246
Post ID: 10357
Reply to: 10354
Why I let other people build them...
fiogf49gjkf0d
So it basically remains a hard-wired, series drive line, and also powered like a discrete monoblock amp?  Do you mean to treat it like a single-stage channel?

What are benefits of hard-wired mutual (one pot) source for tetrode and DHT filament/cathode?

Does variable speaker loading affect OPT/inductance in this case?

Will you use electrolytics for the 20uF and 100uF caps?

Best regards,
Paul S

04-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 247
Post ID: 10363
Reply to: 10354
Ok, it's going to right direction.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Paul S wrote:
OK, I think I get it, except you will have a sand bridge along with your crap-load of Farads guarding ground, and your PS out feeds all six "channels", including the DC MF without dividers?
I will use the same trick I used in Milq single stage amps: the frequency-sensitive PS filtering. I described it before.

 Romy the Cat wrote:
The biggest question I have now is to kill my 6-8dB in crossover on the grid of the driver stage (my VERT much leading idea), to separate driver anode load and  to drop a cap between  the loading and dropping resistors to ground, or to use another lower gain tube

I will certainly go for a voltage divider in driver grid combining the filter and voltage dropper. I measured today everything and I figured out the I need to drop 6.5dB to be even, it means that if I drop 4dB then I will sufficiently remove the unnecessary stressing voltages from grids and will have some ~1dB reserve to play with gain on the secondary of my OPT, in case the tubes have different gain or something like this… I decided to do tame fate with different driver. The sound of SET in mostly comes from the sound of the driver, so I would like to keep the all chem. Of the Melquiades to be in a way the same and do converts the DSET idea into the ordinary multi-amping.

 Romy the Cat wrote:
Ok, here is what I end up with. This version is something that I am planning to give some listening, the fist listening as I this filtered down the intellectuals reasons do not listen it. The amp is fully operational, bit made as a test amp inside the 6Ch-Milq. To finish it would require juts to use better wires and a few better parts…  .  Anyhow, let see how this sucker will sound. 

I actually was listening the amp today all day. Was listening my favorite mono recordings, driving my right channel from the old 6-ch Milq with single stage MF and driving the left channel with new 6-ch Milq with 2-stages DC-compiled DH. It was very interesting and very generally I like what I heard. The 2-stages MF amp sounded exactly how I would like to – a bit more contrasty, a bit more dynamic and a bit more expressive. In other word the 2-stages MF amp sound very much how the 1-stages MF amp would sound if I was able to load the 1-stages MF amp twice or trice idler. It kind of surprising how in a way similar the 1-stage and 2-stage sound, despite how much different they are. The 1-stage still is a bit more attractive by its softness and elegance but the 2-stage run on garbage parts, in prototype version… so the 2-stage has a lot of room for improvement. I think I need to finish is as is as it looks like a right direction to go… I have my spare “brisk” and I need to evaluate how well everything else.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 248
Post ID: 10370
Reply to: 10363
Ok, it looks already very close….
fiogf49gjkf0d
… very close design-vise and sound-vise. From here I need just to put a 3-4dB voltage divider in the grid of the driver grid and to found a really good sounding filter caps that will be able to handle 450V. I have some metalized polypropylene but I do not like that type and would like to have foil type caps. If anyone knows any interesting film and foil type of 5-10uf then let me know, so far I think about Obbligato Aluminium Foil caps. If I won’t find any then I will use a buttery of my 850 cubes … I juts would need a lot of them and I do not know if I have space….

Melquiades_YO-186_Draft14.jpg

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-30-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 249
Post ID: 10399
Reply to: 10370
The Loftinish-Whitish, well sort of….
fiogf49gjkf0d

Yep, it looks, like very close to “it” design-wise. 

http://www.studiomaudio.info/loftinwhite.html

In the way this amp is one of the manifestations of Loftin-White DC-coupled but it has some own things. The driver stage is the Melquiades Tube to keep all 6 channels to have the same “feel”.  For this MF only version the 6E6P huge gain is totally not necessary, so it was reduced by using the un-bypassed cathode bias. The removing of fix bas got rid the DC dependency of grid from ground and made easy to remove the buildup of impedance from the driver grid, effectively extending up the amp bandwidth. Also, with the bandwidth helped the redaction of the driver gain that droped the total Miller capacitance… I like the driver stage now: it has no explicit capacitance and with RL input filter it is as “clean” as it theoretically possible to be.

The output stage is very ordinary running the power tube very spearing but the measures were taken do not bypass the cathode cap in a normal way. The solution is very elegant and was advised to me by a friend of mine, who generally helped with the DC coupling and who due to respectable reasons prefers to be anonymous.

The PS is interesting. I source power form my main 400V PS that I jacked up to 114V. The supply is my regular: Schotky full-wave, LCRC with enormous last cap (I think I have 15K by 450V or something like this). The huge capacitance assured kills ripples but most important it decuples PS from the amp. Since the huge cap forms very low filter and the AC from the tube get shorted right here in the cap down to a fraction of hertz. The folks who use 8uF or 20uF capacitance in SET are playing different games. The AC from this tube goes back passing the last cap and at lower frequencies it getting shorted via chokes and rectifiers. Thos people spend days and years learning how rectifiers, capacitors, wires, secondary of transformers affect sound. It all does affect but only because all that unnecessary shit in the AC back path. I hate this and I juts cancel all of it by using the large last cap. As the result my amp very little affected by the “sound” of rectifiers, capacitors, wires and the rest irrelevant things.

The large capacitance does not affect bass negatively, quite in contrary, but it does make HF a bit “harder”. So, what I do? After the last large cap I have a decoupling resistor and a high quality film cap to ground. The impedance of the decoupling resistor is much higher than the filtering impedance of the film cap and way below the operational frequency of the given channel. Here is where the advance of the DSET topology again show itself off: I have perfect DC with a fraction or mV ripples, the DC that acts like a huge buttery but at the same time, my HF channel run own AC to ground via a high quality film caps and do not see that large capacitance behind this film cap. This application was advised to me by Dima, I see a lot of rational behind it and it become my way to do the things for DSET applications.

In the latest revision David Slagle helped me with input filter that roll off 2.9dB and introduces 3.2kHz first order roll off. It is regular voltage decider combined with RL filter. David built the 80% nickel filtering choke or right value with high resonance frequency (18kHz). The choke and the Obbligato Film cap are in the mails and as they arrive I will be able to finish the amp in a final version, to close it up and start to listen it integrated with the rest channels… I will post tonight the draft 18, the latest one.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-30-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 250
Post ID: 10406
Reply to: 10399
MF: the pre-final version.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Melquiades_YO-186_Draft18.jpg




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-30-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,672
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 251
Post ID: 10407
Reply to: 10406
Loftin-White?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Pentode to the rescue!

For a minute there I thought you were going to get away with 20 uF at the OPT.  But 47 uF beats the 100 uF you were talking about a while back, and, like you said, you can still get a nice metal film cap for that.

Very nice PS isolation, with plenty of current; and still officially DC!  I imagine you will be glad you stuck with it until this solution came to you.  Very elegant.

This also looks like the basis for a FR amp.

Loftin-White X-Treme II, SE...


Best regards,
Paul S
04-30-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 252
Post ID: 10408
Reply to: 10406
Did anyone hear the PX4 amplifiers?
fiogf49gjkf0d

Since the Melquiades MF channel by design has become a universal 4V DHT amp I wonder anyone heard the PX4 amps?

It looks like the Milq output stage will swallow the PX4 easily:

http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/027/p/PX4.pdf

http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/060/p/PX4.pdf

http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/126/p/PX4.pdf

Here is a good site that described the history and use of PX4:

http://www.px4.org/

I do not want to sound as I am just brainlessly fish for options but until the Milq MF channel is not finished in a way how it shall be finished and until it properly integrated into the system I can’t make my own critical judgment about the sound and about sonic differences between the various tubes. The PX4 it appears looks like a viable candidate….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-30-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,672
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 253
Post ID: 10409
Reply to: 10408
What Could use Improving at This Point?
fiogf49gjkf0d

Which 2A3s and other output tubes have you tried so far, and how do they sound and compare in your amp/system?

Also, remember that you may have to tweak operating points a little to get the most out of any of the tubes you try.

I think I mentioned that I actually liked the Sovtek 2A3 because it could effect a great range of "attitudes", including glorious, placid, bland, dirty, rude and aggressive, as each was called for, and I do not mean by adjusting operating points bit according to the stories of the music, while fixed at the "proper" operating points.  It was never as "pristine" as the old RCA, but it was not limited like that tube, either.

 

Again, I last heard the Sovtek a couple of years ago, so I don't know if current production is the same.

Best,
Paul S

05-04-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 254
Post ID: 10424
Reply to: 10406
The Milq’s MF front-end is done
fiogf49gjkf0d

Here is the picture and you might see in front sitting the Dave Slagle’s MF filtering choke, It is not shield but is hangs along relatively far from anything AC-annoying.  I did not measure the filer yet but subjectively it sounds fine, somewhere where it shall be.

Melquiades_YO-186_FrontEndDone.JPG

The front end is very much is done permanently and might be closed up. I was playing today the MF channels, trying to evaluate if the non- shield choke would pick up some noise. I am not sure if it does as generally the amp I would call it “noisy”. It is not the I can hear “noise” at listening position but if I stick my heard into the horn then it certainly has some noise and the most important is that I do not really like the harmonics of THAT noise.

Well, I am not alerted yet as the amp if not close up, the output stage is sitting outside and it might suck garbage from anywhere. Still I ma so accustomed for absolute silence from my horn that whatever minor the DHT does is sound different. At this point I am not considering the DC filaments, let see how it will behave when I close it up. Funny is that with this topology it is hard to figure out where the noise is coming from – the front or back end….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-04-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,672
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 255
Post ID: 10425
Reply to: 10424
Why I Let Other People Build Them, II
fiogf49gjkf0d
The pisser with the AC filaments is that they "sound better" in terms of immediacy and proper acceleration, and the sound "quality" with them is obviously more "lifelike".  But too often the damn things are just plain noisy.  I was thinking I remember that you do not use connecting wire unless you have to, but you solder most of your components end-to-end, where possible.  And I think this is the best course, especially with the AC filaments; just put the damn parts right on the tube pins.  Some guys insist that dropping resistors should extend directly "down", in in line with and directly under the tube/socket, and some guys double their filament chokes, reversing the windings as "humbuckers", and or hook them right to the pins.

Anyway, really quiet (2-stage) DHTs are few and far between, and, as I noted way up the thread, I have never heard a really quiet DHT with AC filaments.  too bad I cannot say exactly why this is.

Lastly, not all tubes work their best [for audio] in any/all positions.  Some tubes really have to be vertical and kept under control to do their audible best in some circuits/systems.  I mention this because I am not sure exactly how you run all the tubes.

Best regards,
Paul S
05-05-2009 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
floobydust


currently roaming the US
Posts 62
Joined on 01-19-2009

Post #: 256
Post ID: 10428
Reply to: 10425
Define really quiet
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul, et al,

 I tend to agree that many DHTs can have a fair amount of AC hum output from an AC filament. In general, I've not found any tricks (like humbucking chokes) to make any significant difference. Ideally, a perfectly balanced AC filament "should" cancel all hum from appearing at the output. Realistically, it doesn't (or very rarely) happen. Why? Well, the cause needs to be examined.... take the old 45 triode as an example. It's a very simple mechanical arrangement. A coated filament in a "M" shape, with a spiraled grid assembly and a box plate. The coated filament uses rare earth materials to enhance electron emission at lower wire temperatures, i.e., much higher efficiency. IMHO, there are some reasons why hum cancellation is simply too complex to balance out completely.

1- the coated filament can not be coated with such accuracy to ensure perfect (equal) electron emission across the entire length of the filament wire.

2- the spiraled grid wire assembly makes a symmetrical flow gate from the filament wire impossible.

3- the plate (anode) is generally coated as well which renders it imperfect to electron absorbtion.

4- mechanical alignment can not be controlled precisely enough to allow such a perfect symmetrical electron flow.

 When you look at the output hum on a scope, it is rarely if ever, a 60Hz (50Hz for other countries) sinewave. The "sometimes" complex looking hum component is the result of the above. Having an adjustable balance control does help, but only with larger offset problems. You still have some complex hum component that can not be balanced out.

 So, in keeping with the post subject, how does one define "really quiet"? I've read many a post (other forums) where some folks consider less than 1mv as being quiet. Some have even gone as far as to state that while the output hum is clearly audible without a musical signal, they are still impressed with the low-level detail and such when playing music! I have a very simple viewpoint on this. If you can hear any hum and/or noise from your "system" without a signal, then you have a distorted output in the form of intermodulation distortion via the audible output hum being injected into the output signal. As a result, ALL playback levels are distorted with lower level signals being affected more.

 If you do some (signal-to-noise) calculations based on 1-watt output (assume 8 ohms) you have a voltage ratio of 2.83Vrms to 0.001Vrms = 2830:1 which is about 69 dB. The more sensitive your speakers are, the greater the audible output noise will be (assuming a reasonably quiet listening room). I generally consider an acceptable S/N ratio of 80 dB (referenced to 1-watt) which equates to about 283 microvolts output noise. This can be a difficult figure to acheive and is more a result of the specific tube versus the (circuit) design.

 I have numerous (45) triodes which easily meet or exceed the S/N requirement with some specific examples exceeding 90 dB and others barely able to meet 70 dB in the same circuit. This makes circuit design difficult and really does lean towards getting a larger quantity of triodes and testing each to ensure quiet operation. This is why many folks opt for a DC filament supply.... usually simple and generally knocks out the audble hum but can introduce other artifacts based on many variables.

 Regards, KM


... just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not after you ...
05-05-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 257
Post ID: 10431
Reply to: 10428
Another variable of sound
fiogf49gjkf0d

Floobydust,

excellent points as usually. I am not too concerned about the AC noise on my filament, at least at this point. I want to get the right “check and balance” operation of the whole amp (all channels together) and then will see how the MF noise will manifest itself. The opinions of my technical advisers are sharply divided: some of then strongly advocate DC and some of them AC. I personally have a strong bias to AC, despite that I have a lot of theoretical justifications that DC shell be more reasonable. Still, I have an open mind about it and it is not difficult to try DC. One of the reasons why I do not want to do it so far is that I do not want to have another variable of sound – to think how the filaments PS would sound.

Your signal-to-noise points are well take and it is how I felt but I have something else in my mind – modulations. The 50Hz hum shall do it a lot into HF. You are also was correct that 50Hz ham on a scope is not the sinewave but rather some multi-wave crap. Another thing that keeps me wondering with my 110dB sensitively and compression driver is the fact that I have very light and very susceptive diaphragm that being stressed with 50Hz shall toss a lot of Doppler distortions. Well, the list might continue and we all agree that there are a LOT of theoretical reasons to DC with high sensitivity – let see how it goes practically. I still, if I will be able to go away with it would prefer to stay with AC.

There is another interesting direction to go – to run filaments from high frequency AC. I think it is what David Berning does. If someone would know any ready to be used 50 kHz -250kHz PS that can do 1-2A then let me know, I would like to try it. I think that subject is so obvious that it shell be some companies out there that shall have some the off the shelf solutions. It truly very simple a 150kHz oscillator and very small class D amp without even any filters in output. I think I need to call to PurePower people and to proposed them to do a new product… I hope someone has already had it.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-05-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,672
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 258
Post ID: 10444
Reply to: 10431
Backlash?
fiogf49gjkf0d
But doesn't the switching PS make tremendous backwash and therefore need special isolation?

Otherwise good idea, though, unless the 60 Hz turns out to be part of what makes the AC sound better in the first place...

Best regards,
Paul S
05-05-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
floobydust


currently roaming the US
Posts 62
Joined on 01-19-2009

Post #: 259
Post ID: 10445
Reply to: 10444
Alternative filament supplies
fiogf49gjkf0d
 A typical switching supply does not evenly load the input (sinewave) power source and can create some dirt on the AC line (Paul's "backwash" statement??). Depending on many variables, the amount of contamination the switching supply could contribute might translate to "the cure is worse than the cause". Custom Japanese vacuum-tube gear creator Tossie has used some switching supplies for filaments before... one such amplifier was using a 4E27 output tube.

http://www2u.biglobe.ne.jp/~tossie/FJ-4E27-J.html

 While I can't vouch for any performance limitations, audible artifacts, etc., it's not my choice for a DC supply in audio gear. I've also not seen any switching supplies in ADCs, DACs or other traditional digital audio gear (CD/DVD players, DAT, etc.) considered to be of high-quality. These components still use linear regulated supplies, usually multiples to isolate digital and analogue (circuit) sections.

 I would have a difficult time agreeing that a 60Hz (or 50Hz for other countries) could contribute a positive affect on the sound, but that's simply my opinion based on my earlier post. Taking the filament supply frequency up beyond the audible range would eliminate the audible hum but would not eliminate the intermodulation or (Romy's) doppler-effect. It's quite possible that the effect itself would be inaudible as well at sufficiently high frequencies, but I would still take the approach of testing multiple tubes to get a close match (gain, power output, distortion and filament hum balance level) first and then test for the same performance using a high-frequency supply.

 While I certainly prefer an AC filament supply on DHTs, certain DHTs are simply unsuitable for such an application... two which come to mind are the original single-plate 2A3 and the Western Electric 300B. Both have center-tapped (or dual-mirrored) filament structures and hum balance to any reasonable amount is virtually impossible. Others which are usually unsuitable are transmitting tubes which use a helical thoriated-tungsten filament, like the 3C24, 808, 4E27 and many others.

 Regards, KM


... just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not after you ...
05-05-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 260
Post ID: 10446
Reply to: 10445
I kind of faced a problem with AC
fiogf49gjkf0d

I was tested the amp in “integrated” mode and even I do have very low noise from the DHT tube but with my sensitivity and with my distances I do hear some ugly noise. I did not realized that the nose is moderate when I lose 3dB of my MF attention to integrate my MF with the rest of channels but when I run it wide open then it kind of unpleasant.

Well, with my entire hate of the DC idea I think I might be forced to go there. It is very pity…

 So, if the dive, or at least trey of DC on filaments would be in order I wonder is any specific DC topology for filaments would be advisable? I might go foe my regular SS Schotcky rectification with following LCRC. I have in the amp a 12.6V and 6.3V, coils, both for very high current, that drives 6C33C that and from there my 2.5 and 4V of LC filtration. But since it will be DC I would like to have an option for multiple voltages…

I have 5A regulated PS up to 33V that I used for my filed coil project; I will try it for temporary used. Still, the filaments in DH are the cathodes and I am VERY suspicion that the quality of the filaments shall matter a lot.

http://www.diyhifisupply.com/files/tenlabs-application-notes.pdf

http://www.diyhifisupply.com/files/tentlabs-dht-heating-methods.pdf

http://www.diyhifisupply.com/files/tentlabs-supply-chart.pdf

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Page 13 of 20 (398 items) Select Pages:  « First ... « 11 12 13 14 15 » ... Last »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  DHT driver & input..  Effects of radiation...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     25  249323  02-01-2007
  »  New  The one-stage Melquiades...  It's time, what amorphous opt...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     74  688617  04-21-2007
  »  New  The single-stage Milq and power Supplies...  Just the tank...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     10  100760  05-03-2007
  »  New  The 6E5P tube data...  Bartola Valves: 6e5p beam tetrode SPICE model...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     44  494136  07-23-2007
  »  New  6 Channel Version of Super Melquiades..  The first Milq screw up....  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     131  1260350  08-08-2007
  »  New  My (Amplification + Acoustic System): what is next?..  Macondo and Melquiades in the NEW room....  Audio Discussions  Forum     41  317096  01-10-2008
  »  New  Incorporating active crossovers into DSET..  Thanks...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     2  46360  07-22-2008
  »  New  About the life-expectancy of the new production tubes...  Stressing the damn contemporary tubes....  Audio Discussions  Forum     9  94085  12-29-2008
  »  New  Small SET’s bass, besides everything- is it about power..  Importance of OPT and type of tube for SET amp bass per...  Audio Discussions  Forum     4  86099  01-12-2009
  »  New  Macondo: new horizons. A few thoughts in context Zander..  What does make a playback to stop?...  Playback Listening  Forum     9  76424  02-02-2009
  »  New  The period DHT tubes and Swastika..  Maybe there is another solution...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     1  28968  04-30-2009
  »  New  Some thoughts about Milq’s MF filter..  High-Pass RL Filter calculator....  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     2  35181  05-02-2009
  »  New  The DHOFT topology? Do not try it home...  A medley of slow-cooked triodes....  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     3  48995  05-04-2009
  »  New  Why the tubes shall be the same?..  Not optional anymore?...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     7  65454  05-11-2009
  »  New  Valve Technology Timeline..  A good video about tubes making....  Audio Discussions  Forum     5  97893  06-18-2006
  »  New  The DSET perspective examines the Herb Reichert article..  Are you still in Reutlingen, Germany?...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     5  97976  07-01-2009
  »  New  About the Critical Audio Tune ™..  “Critical Audio Tune” bay-leave in the soup......  Playback Listening  Forum     5  53517  08-29-2009
  »  New  A full-range quality-triode? Does Size mater?..  A full-range quality-triode? Does Size mater?...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     0  17936  12-02-2009
  »  New  About Stupid Dynamic..  Misplaced dynamics....  Playback Listening  Forum     1  22117  08-21-2011
Home Page  |  Last 24Hours  | Search  |  SiteMap  | Questions or Problems | Copyright Note
The content of all messages within the Forums Copyright © by authors of the posts