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10-26-2015

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Murataltuev

Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #:	141
Post ID:	22158
Reply to:	22144

Too low resonance problem of the upper bass horn

Romy, thank you very much for very detailed explanation of your horn theory.
Let me present some doubts about it. From physics basics when we have more than one springs (suspension, throat resistance, back chamber) we can consider it as one spring. That means, that the "symmetrical load to the diaphragm" concept is not solid. It is absolutely doesn't matter how symmetrical are front and back springs as at the end there is only one joint spring attached to the diaphragm with single resonance, of course. With back chamber you can tune it, yes. And finding optimal resonance for the mid-bass horn is reasonable. We can use this resonance to extend lower.
But I don't see any explanation of the "too low resonance problem of the upper-bass horn". Can you elaborate on this ?
Thank you!

10-26-2015

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Murataltuev

Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #:	142
Post ID:	22159
Reply to:	22143

Horn theory

rowuk wrote:
Wiki and google are not the best, but is a start:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_driver
Mass related horn issues:http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue4/edgarinterview.htm
http://volvotreter.de/downloads/Edgar-Show-Horn.pdf

Horn loading:https://www.grc.com/acoustics/an-introduction-to-horn-theory.pdf

We don't have to agree with everything that these links proclaim. It was a simple exercise in finding what is available to get you started. The problem is, if we have no experience, we have two choices: get smart or get lucky. Once we learn a couple of basic terms, we can search this site for applicable answers to questions we did not ask. Most important, it is almost impossible to find any sites that talk about how speaker parameters apply to sound. They only deal with phase, pressure, distortion or frequency response.

Thank you for the links. I'm not sure that I'll find answer to my question, but anyway I try.

10-26-2015

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,131
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	143
Post ID:	22163
Reply to:	22158

Incorrect

Murataltuev wrote:
Romy, thank you very much for very detailed explanation of your horn theory. Let me present some doubts about it. From physics basics when we have more than one springs (suspension, throat resistance, back chamber) we can consider it as one spring. That means, that the "symmetrical load to the diaphragm" concept is not solid. It is absolutely doesn't matter how symmetrical are front and back springs as at the end there is only one joint spring attached to the diaphragm with single resonance, of course. With back chamber you can tune it, yes. And finding optimal resonance for the mid-bass horn is reasonable. We can use this resonance to extend lower.
But I don't see any explanation of the "too low resonance problem of the upper-bass horn". Can you elaborate on this ?

I do not think you express any doubts but rather incorrect understanding. More than one spring do not make one spring. This cal DC offset. Apply to input of your let day A/D + 3V DC and let me know if you recognize any difference in AC signal. The very same with diaphragm, you do not want diaphragm to have a contra-pressure in one direction leas then in another, this is how you get compression. With lower then rate frequency Fs is also is very simple. If you refuse to make own experiment and confirm the unloading the bass from horn make difference then try to look at the subjects purely intellectually: why you need a driver to reproduce lower frequency then horn can handle and to have more exertion if the whole point to have horn is to get EQ wish would lower the diaphragm exertion.

Still, I it is your system you can do whatever you want and you do not need to do it “right”. Juts one point I would like to make. At your site a person suggested to make 3-way time align horn system because to make 4-ways horn is superbly difficult. Well, I run 7-way horn system and I know how long time it took to me to realized many cons and pros. I do not suggest that I am “right” but I have my reasons besides my reasons.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

10-27-2015

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Murataltuev

Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #:	144
Post ID:	22168
Reply to:	22163

6+ channels is the only "right" for me

Romy the Cat wrote:
With lower then rate frequency Fs is also is very simple. If you refuse to make own experiment and confirm the unloading the bass from horn make difference then try to look at the subjects purely intellectually: why you need a driver to reproduce lower frequency then horn can handle and to have more exertion if the whole point to have horn is to get EQ wish would lower the diaphragm exertion.

Now it is clear! Thank you, Romy!Today I auditioned and measured GOTO with closed hole in back chamber. Mid-bass completely disappeared!
With closed back chamber it works efficiently only from 200Hz! So, I'm going to try it in my 200Hz LeCleach.
Regarding extra inches of LeCleach - in contrast with Tractix this extra inches allows to use this horn right from rate frequency - from 200Hz...looks like allows...I need to experiment to confirm it.

Still, I it is your system you can do whatever you want and you do not need to do it “right”. Juts one point I would like to make. At your site a person suggested to make 3-way time align horn system because to make 4-ways horn is superbly difficult. Well, I run 7-way horn system and I know how long time it took to me to realized many cons and pros. I do not suggest that I am “right” but I have my reasons besides my reasons.

I don't see any other "right" for me.
1. Standard HF driver covers 1000Hz plus region.
2. Horns can't produce right super HF, so the only option is RAAL to match horns sensitivity.
3,4. Upper bass and mid bass horns must be separated, because upper bass region sounds poor in long mid bass horn.
5. ULF is needed to cover 30Hz minus region.
6. Fundamental channel in needed, because using relatively long horn and relatively big and heavy diaphragm for the most loud and dense region of orchestra is not good.
So, 6 channels at least is the only "right" for me.But to get them time-aligned and crossovered right is really a challenge. I understand it.
And I very much appreciate your attention. You are an inventor of this concept and it is so good that you are sharing your experience!

10-27-2015

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,131
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	145
Post ID:	22169
Reply to:	22168

Hold your horses!

Murataltuev wrote:
Now it is clear! Thank you, Romy!Today I auditioned and measured GOTO with closed hole in back chamber. Mid-bass completely disappeared!
With closed back chamber it works efficiently only from 200Hz! So, I'm going to try it in my 200Hz LeCleach.

I do not understand what does it mean. Are you saying that you lost bottom response with closed exit hole on the driver back? If with the closed drift from back you have a (loaded!) response no lower than 200Hz then it is very good. It means that the driver itself has a very tight space on back. You need stop to do it blind and your frequency response measurement is irrelevant. I do not see any need to use the driver in 200Hz horn. You do not think in context of entire system but only in context of your current excitement regarding your dally hypes. Your midbass horn will not do up to 200Hz and if it will then you do not want it to be as it would be too much localizable. So you want the upper bass to be cover with one channel that will be size-manageable and time manageable. It would be 85-120Hz horn. If you do have 200Hz then trash it and stop to buy horn and start thinking. Design system on piece of paper first and do not buy the thing before you know what you are buying. Let pretend that you chose 100Hz horn, then set your Goto drive with Fs around 85-90Hz and begin very slowly to drive the Fs up. Correlate it with what you are hearing BUT give to your at least a month to understand what you hear. From what you are saying now it does not look like you do. Most likely you will need you MF to be up and running at that time. Do not use any tweeter, just run MF (no higher then 9-10) and your upper bass horn and take your time.

Murataltuev wrote:
Regarding extra inches of LeCleach - in contrast with Tractix this extra inches allows to use this horn right from rate frequency - from 200Hz...looks like allows...I need to experiment to confirm it.

I do not think you need La horn as it will be waste of good 5-8” of your vertical space. It is not to mention 200Hz horn that is just a waste of a channel. But it is your system and feel free to do whatever make you happy.

Murataltuev wrote:
Horns can't produce right super HF, so the only option is RAAL to match horns sensitivity.

Horns can perfectly produce super HF and RAAL, or sensitivity matching is irrelevant. If you multi-amping then sensitivity is not a factor.

Murataltuev wrote:
Upper bass and mid bass horns must be separated, because upper bass region sounds poor in long mid bass horn.

It not “must be separated”, it might be separated but it has nothing to do with “upper bass region sounds poor in long mid bass horn”. I have no idea why you toss those statements.

Murataltuev wrote:
5. ULF is needed to cover 30Hz minus region.

You should not be thinking about ULF at this point.

Murataltuev wrote:
6. Fundamental channel in needed, because using relatively long horn and relatively big and heavy diaphragm for the most loud and dense region of orchestra is not good.

Honestly, I do not know what it was all about.

Murataltuev wrote:

So, 6 channels at least is the only "right" for me.

You can do whatever you want. 6 channels is a lot of work and of cause it is not “only right”. As I told you before get Midbass and MF to work together right with whatever section of drivers and horns you want and then I will tell you what to do next. Do not buy anything, do not build any frames, do not strategize anything. Juts make one set of MF and upparbass with regular passive filters and one amp to sound properly.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

10-27-2015

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Murataltuev

Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #:	146
Post ID:	22170
Reply to:	22169

1st priority: Upperbass and MF

Romy the Cat wrote:

I do not understand what does it mean. Are you saying that you lost bottom response with closed exit hole on the driver back? If with the closed drift from back you have a (loaded!) response no lower than 200Hz then it is very good. It means that the driver itself has a very tight space on back. You need stop to do it blind and your frequency response measurement is irrelevant. I do not see any need to use the driver in 200Hz horn. You do not think in context of entire system but only in context of your current excitement regarding your dally hypes. Your midbass horn will not do up to 200Hz and if it will then you do not want it to be as it would be too much localizable. So you want the upper bass to be cover with one channel that will be size-manageable and time manageable. It would be 85-120Hz horn. If you do have 200Hz then trash it and stop to buy horn and start thinking. Design system on piece of paper first and do not buy the thing before you know what you are buying. Let pretend that you chose 100Hz horn, then set your Goto drive with Fs around 85-90Hz and begin very slowly to drive the Fs up. Correlate it with what you are hearing BUT give to your at least a month to understand what you hear. From what you are saying now it does not look like you do. Most likely you will need you MF to be up and running at that time. Do not use any tweeter, just run MF (no higher then 9-10) and your upper bass horn and take your time.

Yes, back chamber is very small. And it is tunable! So, I need 110Hz Tractrix...ok.

I do not think you need La horn as it will be waste of good 5-8” of your vertical space. It is not to mention 200Hz horn that is just a waste of a channel. But it is your system and feel free to do whatever make you happy.

The thing is that HornResp shows almost similar (even better for LeCleach) response below 200Hz for 110Hz Tractrix and 200Hz LeCleach.I can't ignore it at my current state of understanding things, so I'm going to try 200Hz LeCleach to see what I can have from it.

Horns can perfectly produce super HF and RAAL, or sensitivity matching is irrelevant. If you multi-amping then sensitivity is not a factor.

I'm not multi-amping at this stage. And I really don't feel right super HF from horn and like what I got from RAAL. Horns super HF are heavy and agressive, I would say...and violin sound is simplified with lack of thin nuances. Without RAAL I don't feel that violin sounds true.

It not “must be separated”, it might be separated but it has nothing to do with “upper bass region sounds poor in long mid bass horn”. I have no idea why you toss those statements.

May be it is a result of my exact experiment. Upper bass region in my exact mid-bass horn sounds like driver is not loaded, so sound comes from cask...poor and colored.

You should not be thinking about ULF at this point.

I agree. I don't care about ULF now.

Honestly, I do not know what it was all about.

I believe, that smaller weight and smaller excursion brings better sound. Why I want my Fundamental channel's sound to be produced with big and heavy diaphragm ? Of course I need something special for this range.

You can do whatever you want. 6 channels is a lot of work and of cause it is not “only right”. As I told you before get Midbass and MF to work together right with whatever section of drivers and horns you want and then I will tell you what to do next. Do not buy anything, do not build any frames, do not strategize anything. Juts make one set of MF and upparbass with regular passive filters and one amp to sound properly.

Ok. I'll make upper-bass and MF to work together.Now this is my 1st priority.

10-27-2015

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,131
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	147
Post ID:	22171
Reply to:	22170

OK, good luck.

Murataltuev wrote:
Yes, back chamber is very small. And it is tunable! So, I need 110Hz Tractrix...ok

You might tune the Fs by using a acoustically semitransparent fabric, like Audiotechnica does in their headphones. About the size and type of upperbass horn you need... I do not know it is a complicated subject. The upperbass horn is a main horn of your playback, sonically and esthetically. You have no limitation of driver and you can pretty much chose any cut off horn frequency you want. It might be 120, 100 or 80... it might be anything. There is so many factors to consider before making this judgment....

Murataltuev wrote:
The thing is that HornResp shows almost similar (even better for LeCleach) response below 200Hz for 110Hz Tractrix and 200Hz LeCleach.I can't ignore it at my current state of understanding things, so I'm going to try 200Hz LeCleach to see what I can have from it.

So, you will have a presumably 100H upperbass and 200Hz MF. It is very reticular. Also, please DO NOT USE the fucking word HornResp in front of me. One more time I will hear and it will be the last time you heard from me.

Murataltuev wrote:
I'm not multi-amping at this stage. And I really don't feel right super HF from horn and like what I got from RAAL. Horns super HF are heavy and agressive, I would say...and violin sound is simplified with lack of thin nuances. Without RAAL I don't feel that violin sounds true.

You are wrong about it but it is irrelevant as there is absolutely unnecessary for you at this point to worry about tweeter.

Murataltuev wrote:
I believe, that smaller weight and smaller excursion brings better sound. Why I want my Fundamental channel's sound to be produced with big and heavy diaphragm ? Of course I need something special for this range.

Actually it is incorrect. The requirement to Fundamental channel is not subordinate to this logic. I do not think you should worry about it now.

Murataltuev wrote:
Ok. I'll make upper-bass and MF to work together.Now this is my 1st priority.

That is OK. I do feel that you might find a need to change your JBL MF but do not do it yet. Also, you drive everything with one GM70. I do not know if it is good amp but if it is then I would give you VERY high probability that you will need to drive MF and Upperbass with different load. If you amp has multiple taps then you will need to use them (hopefully your transformer was winded properly with full length filling for each tap)

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

11-08-2015

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Murataltuev

Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #:	148
Post ID:	22200
Reply to:	22171

Finally...my MidBass horn!

After all I'm going to construct this kind of mid-bass horn.
It is 35Hz, 4.3m long and 1.4m mouth.

11-08-2015

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Murataltuev

Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #:	149
Post ID:	22201
Reply to:	22171

GOTO in 200Hz LeCleach

And I've successfully integrated GOTO with 200Hz LeCleach, believe me or not.

11-08-2015

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,131
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	150
Post ID:	22202
Reply to:	22201

I do not think so.

Murataltuev wrote:
And I've successfully integrated GOTO with 200Hz LeCleach, believe me or not.

Marat, I do not think that I buy the adjective "successfully".

I read the SoundEx forum where you talk about your project and I was observing the quality of collaboration you have in there, the quality of people and the most important the complexity of objectives you exposed to yourself. I am not pleased what I observed and I find it presents insultingly low audio demands multiplied by very questionable cultural pointers. You certainly can build whatever you want but I do not trust your judgment and your expressions like "successful" do not mean anything for me. The level of the questions you ask here and at your Russian site is just a proof of my suspicions and my disregard.

Since observation and comments of anything that happiness in horn world is kind of in my domain I still will be commenting upon your project but I would like you to know that I have very low expectations. I am sure you will be happy with result however.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

11-08-2015

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Murataltuev

Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #:	151
Post ID:	22203
Reply to:	22202

Ok

Yes, I'm new to horns...I have only my ears...with other needed skills I have people around who help me and thank you for your help also.If you read SoundEx, then I don't need to post here.I'll be happy for any comments on my pages.
Thank you,
Murat.

P.S. today my friend made this video...he is selling vintage audio gear and has huge experience...his conclusion was: live music!...best he ever heard!
I'm really happy to have such a feedback, but I know it, anyway Smile

https://youtu.be/T8TZHxUOZxk

11-08-2015

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anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #:	152
Post ID:	22204
Reply to:	22203

The RAAL

Looks like you still have the protective shield over the front of the RAAL ribbon in the video. Is the RAAL in use or turned off?

11-08-2015

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Murataltuev

Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #:	153
Post ID:	22205
Reply to:	22204

RAAL is off now

Yes, now it is off. It is connected to 109db tap, but still can't match the sensitivity of the rest of the system.
So, I need another amp for it which is a big problem, because my amp is "piece uniqe" and I need to wait more that a year for the second pair.
I have an opportunity to try GOTO SG-17, but I think it will be the same problem.
More than 110db for the 14k+ range is impossible to get, so I need to wait for another amp.

11-08-2015

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anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #:	154
Post ID:	22206
Reply to:	22205

Maybe talk to RAAL about changing the transformer

There should be an 111dB tap on the Lazy Ribbon, but perhaps you have tried that already. Other than that, perhaps talk to RAAL to see if they can improve the sensitivity a little more with a transformer change (or something else)...it might be quicker than waiting a year for another amplifier.

11-08-2015

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Murataltuev

Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #:	155
Post ID:	22207
Reply to:	22206

Good idea, thank you!

Yes, I've tried most sensitive tap (3.5 Ohm).I'll contact with Alexandar to check if he can do something. It will be great if it is possible to modify it for higher sensitivy!

11-08-2015

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,131
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	156
Post ID:	22208
Reply to:	22206

It will be misevaluated anyhow.

anthony wrote:
There should be an 111dB tap on the Lazy Ribbon, but perhaps you have tried that already. Other than that, perhaps talk to RAAL to see if they can improve the sensitivity a little more with a transformer change (or something else)...it might be quicker than waiting a year for another amplifier.

Anthony, sometimes 111dB is not what it is. In context of what he does and with GBL driver in MF I can see that he need ~101-103dB, I meant true dB. Do not forget that RAAls are line array that would give you + 3dB and they are ribbons that would give you extra 1-3dB. In the bright room as he has he would not need a tweeter that runs far over 100dB, particularly if he load it at the transition slope. Anyhow, I do not think it worth to think about this tweeter seriously as I am sure that very soon another 3-4 tweeters will be bought, tried and misevaluated. It is what it is.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

11-08-2015

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,131
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	157
Post ID:	22209
Reply to:	22203

Even I do not believe in psychologists

Murataltuev wrote:
P.S. today my friend made this video...he is selling vintage audio gear and has huge experience...his conclusion was: live music!...best he ever heard!
I'm really happy to have such a feedback, but I know it, anyway

https://youtu.be/T8TZHxUOZxk

Your friend is idiot and I have read his comments. Most of the people from your surrounding are idiots (of cause I am talking audio-wise) and musically are they are as barbaric as it could be. If you was trying to pursue to some kind of sound of your mind with your own listening and sonic objective then it would be one thing but unfortunately the whole interest you have in this business is to entertain yourself by participating in a social media-reported project. That is boring and tedious and you do not need a consultation with people who practice audio but rather a session with behavioral psychologist....

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

11-09-2015

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Murataltuev

Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #:	158
Post ID:	22210
Reply to:	22208

Have you had any experience ?

Romy, I think that your problem is that you stuck in past with your existing experience.You never tried latest JBLs. You never tried LeCleach profiles. You have your own reasons not do it. But I don't see any reasons to comment others experience in the field where you don't have it.I already tried all kind of horn tweeters, so there is no room for another 3-4. RAAL is the only choice. If Alexandar can make it more sensitive - good for me.

11-09-2015

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Murataltuev

Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #:	159
Post ID:	22211
Reply to:	22209

Ok :)

Romy the Cat wrote:

Your friend is idiot and I have read his comments. Most of the people from your surrounding are idiots (of cause I am talking audio-wise) and musically are they are as barbaric as it could be.

We all (including you) have the same physical capabilities to enjoy live music. We both (with my friend) like to visit true live concerts in our local musical school and big concerts in Moscow. We have the same imagination of true live sound. Please, don't think that you are somehow unique in this regard. It is silly.

If you was trying to pursue to some kind of sound of your mind with your own listening and sonic objective then it would be one thing but unfortunately the whole interest you have in this business is to entertain yourself by participating in a social media-reported project.

Of course, it is my own listening and sonic objectives, but why do you think that they are somehow different from others objectives. We all enjoy live music and want to have it in our home. And this is our hobby, so yes...we enjoy it and entertain ourselfs. It is not my business or antoher kind of interest.

That is boring and tedious and you do not need a consultation with people who practice audio but rather a session with behavioral psychologist....

Let me decide for myself what I need. You don't want to consult - it is ok Smile

11-09-2015

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,131
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	160
Post ID:	22212
Reply to:	22211

OK.

Murataltuev wrote:
Romy, I think that your problem is that you stuck in past with your existing experience. You never tried latest JBLs. You never tried LeCleach profiles

…and you feel that using La profiles, computerized prediction and Neodymium rendition 2440 would make you “contemporary”? You are so uninformed about what you are saying and you have no even curiosity why you are so way off.

Murataltuev wrote:
I already tried all kind of horn tweeters, so there is no room for another 3-4. RAAL is the only choice. If Alexandar can make it more sensitive - good for me.

You will discover eventually RALL is no good match for JBL MF drivers and you have enough money and enough of that ridicules buying itch to keep purchasing all of that crap. That apparently gives some kind of “other” satisfaction. Which is OK. Let me to play with you a game. You so (unthinkingly) insist on La profiles for you horns but your tweeter has no La profile. Oh, my God, the channel where the edge termination is the most important and suddenly no negative opening! My Deep Purple will be terminally ruined. Givolt!!! You need to do something with it.

Murataltuev wrote:
We all (including you) have the same physical capabilities to enjoy live music. We both (with my friend) like to visit true live concerts in our local musical school and big concerts in Moscow. We have the same imagination of true live sound. Please, don't think that you are somehow unique in this regard. It is silly.

Oh, God! The idiot Lechnitsky told to pure Russian audiophiles that they need to tell each other that they go concerts but he did not manage to tell them what to do during the concerts. Please, Murat, I have read plenty of audiophiles in Russia to talk about “music” and I well know the value of that lunacy.

Murataltuev wrote:
Of course, it is my own listening and sonic objectives…

Honestly I do not see any. I do see a desire to buy components, to pile them in listening room, to make pictures of them, to talk at forums using audio terminology and to demonstrate an adolescent excitement about any archived mediocracy. This is about all that I see. I do not say that it is bad, it is better than to drink vodka for instance but it has nothing to do with audio interests that I would be attracted or where I feel any difference might be made.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

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	Target	Threads for related reading	Most recent post in related threads	Forum	Replies	Views	Started
»	New	5-ways from Speedysteve7..	Hehe - no invite for you...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	23	205400	05-20-2011
»	New	Macondo Alternation. Extending the LF line-array..	Macondo and not only Macondo positioning...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	8	150513	10-29-2005
»	New	Macondo’s lowest channel...	What truly are you tryin to accomplish?...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	150	1393190	09-15-2010
»	New	Plugin for drawing segmented petal horns i Sketchup..	Thanks...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	1	15846	08-15-2015
»	New	Designing and building a 5 channel horn loaded (looking..	The "old" servo......	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	73	341553	06-20-2015
»	New	Eventually - a reasonable midbass horn from GOTO..	Clever DIY going on where?...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	97	1194213	11-19-2007
»	New	Deep End DIY - Australian take one Macondo...	It is simple, but......	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	87	316529	01-20-2016
»	New	The Kato-san's Goto system..	Brilliant...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	10	51190	05-23-2017